Star Wars Griefing Thread (SPOILERS) - Safety off

[LORD IMPERATOR]

Now this is an interesting topic, but two things first. The New Republic inflicted multiple defeats, and, even in its own defeats, losses on the Vong much bigger than the defeat the Empire inflicted on them when they invaded the Remnant. I love Pellaeon telling the Vong commander the Empire will always strike back as much as the next guy, but they make it clear that Vong fleet was C-tier led by a C-tier commander. And it still almost knocked the Remnant out at the first blow. The black eye the Remnant gave the Vong came during the Vong counteroffensive after the New Republic had turned the tide by kicking the Vong's asses at at Borleias and Ebaq 9. Indeed it was established that they attacked the Remnant precisely because Pellaeon had given the New Republic the Empire's hyperspace lane charts for the core, which allowed the ambush at Ebaq 9 to be brought off in the first place. Please don't split hairs about Ebaq 9 okay, the Empire did contribute the charts which were crucial, but it was all New Republic military forces that fought that battle. Lumiya's Sith also helped secretly but again not with warships and snubfighters or anything

The thing is, the Vong could've been defeated by the New Republic if they didn't half-ass their defense. Instead, they dragged their feet just to snub the Jedi, and even when they fought, NR leadership was so incompetent that morale was at an all-time low.

And even before the Vong appeared, the New Republic was so tired of war that they had to make peace with the weakened Empire instead of wiping them out completely. Not to mention the fact that the Empire was still strong enough to the point where soliciting their aid was vital to the Jedi agenda in the early years of the Vong War.

Not to mention the fact that the New Republic was only able to win against the pre-Thrawn Imperial remnants because they were divided. The individual warlords still posed a considerable threat against the New Republic. If these warlords joined forces, the NR would've been strangled at its crib. And the fighting against these remnants was no walk in the park. Indeed, the Alliance/New Republic was more overstretched and overstressed by fighting several different empires, and they won by the skin of their teeth. Even by the time Thrawn entered the picture, the Empire still controlled half the galaxy, and the balance of power was horribly thin.

The New Republic won for the same reason the Alliance did on Endor: thanks to plot. If the Empire's leaders sorted their shit out and elected a leader to lead them post-Endor, they would've won the war.

Shit, they won the war in the Legacy era, effortlessly crushing the Galactic Alliance and reducing them to a hit-and-run rebel force once more, before they had their own civil war between a Jedi Emperor and a Sith Emperor.

 

[draggs]

And even before the Vong appeared, the New Republic was so tired of war that they had to make peace with the weakened Empire instead of wiping them out completely.

That is not how I remember the situation being presented in the Hand of Thrawn duology at all. Pellaeon at least believed the Remnant was the tired one that needed to make peace, before the New Republic wiped them out completely, while the Moff cabal opposing him led by Disra did not

Not to mention the fact that the New Republic was only able to win against the pre-Thrawn Imperial remnants because they were divided. The individual warlords still posed a considerable threat against the New Republic. If these warlords joined forces, the NR would've been strangled at its crib. And the fighting against these remnants was no walk in the park. Indeed, the Alliance/New Republic was more overstretched and overstressed by fighting several different empires, and they won by the skin of their teeth. Even by the time Thrawn entered the picture, the Empire still controlled half the galaxy, and the balance of power was horribly thin.

This is also not really the way it was presented. In the Thrawn trilogy the Empire was considered still a threat but a diminishing one, until Thrawn turned things around by the end of Heir to the Empire and especially the end of Dark Force Rising. In the comics and novels dealing with the period between Endor and Thrawn showing up, the situation was presented as very much as the Imperial and warlord forces very stronk, but the New Republic was on top and waxing while the official Imperial successor government first under Sate Pestage and then Ysanne Isard was waning, and the power of the various warlords was fluctuating. Zsinj was the only warlord presented as having a real chance at becoming the top power in the galaxy. I don't think anyone at Lucasfilm in the 90s would have agreed with you that the NR would've been strangled in its crib

The New Republic won for the same reason the Alliance did on Endor: thanks to plot. If the Empire's leaders sorted their shit out and elected a leader to lead them post-Endor, they would've won the war.

Again I don't think anyone at Lucasfilm would have signed on to such a statement. Except maybe some based secret Imperial diehards

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

I don't think anyone at Lucasfilm in the 90s would have agreed with you that the NR would've been strangled in its crib

That was literally what one NR historian said about the Empire and the New Republic. If the Empire united in fighting the NR, the NR would've been strangled at its crib. Their power wanted because of infighting. The only reason the NR had any chance at all was because the Empire spent just as much time fighting itself as it did the NR, something which even Daala noted.

That is not how I remember the situation being presented in the Hand of Thrawn duology at all. Pellaeon at least believed the Remnant was the tired one that needed to make peace, before the New Republic wiped them out completely, while the Moff cabal opposing him led by Disra did not

And Pellaeon's opponents wanted to continue the war because they knew the New Republic was also overstretched; patrolling at least half of the former Imperial territory with 5 fleets of 500 ships each. There's a reason why they fell so fast to the Vong.

Again I don't think anyone at Lucasfilm would have signed on to such a statement. Except maybe some based secret Imperial diehards

Realistically, the Empire should've won on Endor because they had the larger fleet. And they would've easily crushed the NR if they united to crush the Alliance after Endor instead of fighting each other. The only reason the Rebels won, aside from Imperial infighting and Battle Meditation BS, is because Star Wars is a Space fairy tale where the good guys are supposed to win.

 

[homophobic fujoshi]

I'm gonna watch Andor S2 but part of me already hopes it's gonna flop because the shilling is fucking out of control. Every early review is completely hyperbolic and annoying about how "topical" (read: Empire is le orange man) it is. It's obvious Disney spent shitload of money in this and is desperately trying to push it with paid reviews/articles.

 

[Sleazy Car Salesman]

I'm gonna watch Andor S2 but part of me already hopes it's gonna flop because the shilling is fucking out of control. Every early review is completely hyperbolic and annoying about how "topical" (read: Empire is le orange man) it is. It's obvious Disney spent shitload of money in this and is desperately trying to push it with paid reviews/articles.

 

[Adamska]

Given that Filoni rarely even uses Vader, I highly doubt he'd make an appearance. Usually it would be the smugly chuckling Thrawn or some other stuffed-shirt Imperial general who'd react to the Rebels blowing up the base by saying "just as planned" because they learned more of how the Rebels fought.

Oh no, I should've clarified by bridging that the Real Vader, from the EU and canon would've killed all of Dave's evil characters if he got teleported into the setting. Particularly in Rebels. He'd not tolerate the Saturday Morning Cartoon bullshit, nor would he tolerate the excuses made to justify why they lost.

Dave's Thrawn would've been brutally and publically executed in front of his peers, as a statement that you need to take your fucking Ls and do better, don't justify that shit. It's one thing to fail; taking the blame and pledging to to better will usually give you a second shot. Doing your job competently will leave you be.

It's a little detail like that that Dave is incapable of understanding. Vader by villain standards I'd argue is a pretty reasonable boss; he has high expectations, but he only kills you or forces you out in disgrace if you're incompetent or refuse to admit to your failings. You do your thing, he leaves you be or gives you more chances to succeed.

especially the end of Dark Force Rising

This one more than anything else was a major factor in why Thrawn got so scary. He was able to get what was essentially a full Sector Fleet back due to probing for the Katana Fleet. The New Republic was still dealing with and building something when he rolled up with 180+ Dreadnoughts. Even if they were obsolescent compared to the ISDs, they still were more than the New Republic had.

Then add him being actually intelligent and a skilled Admiral, rather than being told he is, and no wonder they were threatened.

 

[Screamer_2]

I'm gonna watch Andor S2 but part of me already hopes it's gonna flop because the shilling is fucking out of control. Every early review is completely hyperbolic and annoying about how "topical" (read: Empire is le orange man) it is. It's obvious Disney spent shitload of money in this and is desperately trying to push it with paid reviews/articles.

When you think about it, Biden being an old rotting puppet and fake leader like Snoke is probably a far better analogue to anything Trump in Andor.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

Oh no, I should've clarified by bridging that the Real Vader, from the EU and canon would've killed all of Dave's evil characters if he got teleported into the setting. Particularly in Rebels. He'd not tolerate the Saturday Morning Cartoon bullshit, nor would he tolerate the excuses made to justify why they lost.

Exactly. The Sith from the old canon would've either killed Filoni's Imperial characters, or would've allowed the good guys to kill them. What Tarkin did to those two low-ranking officers at the end of Season 1 would've been standard operating procedure for the Empire.

Dave's Thrawn would've been brutally and publically executed in front of his peers, as a statement that you need to take your fucking Ls and do better, don't justify that shit. It's one thing to fail; taking the blame and pledging to do better will usually give you a second shot. Doing your job competently will leave you be.

The problem is, Thrawn from Rebels tries to hide his defeats as "gathering intel". While some times, the Empire allows the Rebels a few wins for a greater goal, (letting the Rebels destroy the Raxus Prime shipyards in order to identify and capture the Rebel senators, allowing the Rebels to destroy the SSD with the cloaking device on Fondor to make them ballsy enough to attack Endor) repeat losses disguised as gathering intel on the Rebels, even letting them go despite the fact that the Rebels were well within your target sights, would've been unforgivable. Thrawn letting the Rebels go on Mykapo and Ryloth would've ended with him getting strangled telekinetically by Vader and him getting replaced by someone like Rom Mohc or Tal Ashen.

It's a little detail like that that Dave is incapable of understanding. Vader by villain standards I'd argue is a pretty reasonable boss; he has high expectations, but he only kills you or forces you out in disgrace if you're incompetent or refuse to admit to your failings. You do your thing, he leaves you be or gives you more chances to succeed.

That's why Piett lived and Ozzel did not. Piett underestimated the Rebels being able to fix the Falcon hyperdrive, whereas Ozzel made a mistake that would cost the Empire since the Rebel Base on Hoth was alerted to the Empire's presence.

This one more than anything else was a major factor in why Thrawn got so scary. He was able to get what was essentially a full Sector Fleet back due to probing for the Katana Fleet. The New Republic was still dealing with and building something when he rolled up with 180+ Dreadnoughts. Even if they were obsolescent compared to the ISDs, they still were more than the New Republic had.

That, and the balance between the Republic and Empire was so razor-thin, that 180 dreadnoughts going to the Empire side gave Thrawn a clear advantage.

Then add him being actually intelligent and a skilled Admiral, rather than being told he is, and no wonder they were threatened.

The old Thrawn showed he was smart through his actions. His first battle in his novel series had him casually annihilating an entire fleet, to the point where some smuggler Han was trying to recruit brought it up as an example of New Republic carelessness.

 

[Rome's rightful successor]

Remember the hype leading to the release of Episode II?

 

[draggs]

That was literally what one NR historian said about the Empire and the New Republic. If the Empire united in fighting the NR, the NR would've been strangled at its crib. Their power wanted because of infighting. The only reason the NR had any chance at all was because the Empire spent just as much time fighting itself as it did the NR, something which even Daala noted.

How did the Rebellion, weaker than the New Republic, ever manage to even challenge the united Empire then? The major Rebellion lasted like seven-ish years or something from the signing of the agreement on Corellia by the three biggest rebel groups to create the Alliance, to the battle of Endor

Daala's opinion is her biased opinion. She also got bitchslapped every time she tried taking on the New Republic until she played politics to become Chief of State of the GFFA or whatever, and then she failed again, she wasn't exactly competent tbh

And Pellaeon's opponents wanted to continue the war because they knew the New Republic was also overstretched; patrolling at least half of the former Imperial territory with 5 fleets of 500 ships each. There's a reason why they fell so fast to the Vong.

From what I remember, Disra thought the New Republic could be beaten because revealing the Bothans glassed Caamas would tear it apart and the "return" of Thrawn would give the Remnant a shot in the arm, not that the united New Republic was overstretched and exhausted militarily. Politically, yes. Militarily, no

Realistically, the Empire should've won on Endor because they had the larger fleet. And they would've easily crushed the NR if they united to crush the Alliance after Endor instead of fighting each other. The only reason the Rebels won, aside from Imperial infighting and Battle Meditation BS, is because Star Wars is a Space fairy tale where the good guys are supposed to win.

The Empire was fully intact by your definition and couldn't crush the Rebellion before Endor

You don't like that the Empire lost so it's unrealistic. Whatever. You think the ideal situation for the Empire is realistic, because. It's not realistic for corrupt military autocracies to not have rivalries and competition carving out fiefdoms, even when the central authority is still operating. It's not realistic for an empire that controlled nearly all the known half of the galaxy, and a large chunk of the Unknown Regions, to be able to concentrate all its resources on "the Rebels." Aside from the open rebellions, large chunks of the population of ostensibly Imperial-controlled or -subservient populations (like Corellians and Duros and Fondorians and Sullustans and...) and organizations were either sympathetic to the Rebellion (like Kuat of Kuat) or aiding the Rebellion in secret (like SoroSuub and Incom) or were actively undermining the Empire (like Black Sun) or were playing both ends (like the Hutts). There were ancient enmities between planets, systems, regions, and sectors that the lid had to be firmly kept on, or the Empire would tear itself apart in galaxy-wide internecine warfare that did not even have the Empire itself as a target. The Emperor's arrogance was very well-established in rotj and the EU. There are plenty of examples in the real world of military autocracies that failed to suppress rebellions despite a lack of infighting. One of them is going on right now in Burma. The military is fully united against the rebels, always has been, it's been fully united trying to control the country for decades, and is still failing to get the job done

Okay fine if you want to say with the perfect conditions the Empire would have easily crushed the Rebellion, and even the New Republic after Endor. So what, those perfect conditions are what is unrealistic

 

[XYZpdq Jr.]

Remember the hype leading to the release of Episode II?

THE N-STREETS ARE GOING TO BE IN THE BACKGROUND ALL IS LOST

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

How did the Rebellion, weaker than the New Republic, ever manage to even challenge the united Empire then? The major Rebellion lasted like seven-ish years or something from the signing of the agreement on Corellia by the three biggest rebel groups to create the Alliance, to the battle of Endor

Did you not watch the movies and read the EU? Most of the Empire died fighting itself after Palpatine died on Endor. Dude, this is basic history.

Daala's opinion is her biased opinion. She also got bitchslapped every time she tried taking on the New Republic until she played politics to become Chief of State of the GFFA or whatever, and then she failed again, she wasn't exactly competent tbh

Daala's not wrong in that Imperial infighting was bad for the Empire. Sometimes, a broken clock can be right twice a day. She was, after all, Tarkin's protege for a reason.

From what I remember, Disra thought the New Republic could be beaten because revealing the Bothans glassed Caamas would tear it apart and the "return" of Thrawn would give the Remnant a shot in the arm, not that the united New Republic was overstretched and exhausted militarily. Politically, yes. Militarily, no

5 fleets of 500 ships each patrolling an area that is at least, half the Empire's turf? No, that is overstretched.

And yes, I pulled that figure from the books.

The Empire was fully intact by your definition and couldn't crush the Rebellion before Endor

They were winning most major conflicts. Garm Bel Iblis explains in the Thrawn Trilogy that he didn't join the Rebels proper because there were so many news segments of them getting their butts kicked by the Empire. Hell, the X-Wing game starts off with a cutscene of the Empire bombarding and seizing a rebel base. Hoth wasn't the exception; it was the norm. The Rebels lost Yavin for the exact same reason: they can put up a fight, but not forever.

Speaking of Endor, the only reason that was important was because the Emperor died. If he managed to escape, he'd just rally the Empire's forces again and charge full-throttle at the Rebels. And the only reason he died was because Vader had a last-ditch change of mind. Meaning that if he didn't, or if Palpatine wasn't stupid enough to turn Vader's kid against him, then the Rebels would've likely lost, as Thrawn notes that they were winning thanks to Palpatine's Battle Meditation; something which went offline when he was distracted with the Skywalker baby-mama drama.

Hell, they had to invent Battle Meditation as an excuse as to why the superior Imperial fleet didn't win. Even the EU writers knew the Empire should've won Endor based on numbers alone.

You don't like that the Empire lost so it's unrealistic. Whatever. You think the ideal situation for the Empire is realistic, because. It's not realistic for corrupt military autocracies to not have rivalries and competition carving out fiefdoms, even when the central authority is still operating. It's not realistic for an empire that controlled nearly all the known half of the galaxy, and a large chunk of the Unknown Regions, to be able to concentrate all its resources on "the Rebels." Aside from the open rebellions, large chunks of the population of ostensibly Imperial-controlled or -subservient populations (like Corellians and Duros and Fondorians and Sullustans and...) and organizations were either sympathetic to the Rebellion (like Kuat of Kuat) or aiding the Rebellion in secret (like SoroSuub and Incom) or were actively undermining the Empire (like Black Sun) or were playing both ends (like the Hutts). There were ancient enmities between planets, systems, regions, and sectors that the lid had to be firmly kept on, or the Empire would tear itself apart in galaxy-wide internecine warfare that did not even have the Empire itself as a target. The Emperor's arrogance was very well-established in rotj and the EU. There are plenty of examples in the real world of military autocracies that failed to suppress rebellions despite a lack of infighting. One of them is going on right now in Burma. The military is fully united against the rebels, always has been, it's been fully united trying to control the country for decades, and is still failing to get the job done

That's not the case. I'm merely stating what is and isn't realistic. The fact that they had to invent Battle Meditation, and the fact that they had the Empire fight itself more than the Rebels after Endor, goes to show that the Rebels won due to plot. I can like the Rebels as much as the next guy, but I still have to admit that the Empire should've won realistically, if the story has to bend over backwards and invent shit like Battle Meditation or have the Imperials post-Endor be obsessed with infighting and power struggles in order to give the Rebellion a realistic reason as to why they even won.

Because if the Imperial armada just attacked on Endor instead of having the Emperor hold them back, or if they just elected a new leader among the Moffs to lead them then resumed full-scare war with the Rebels, there would be no New Republic. And all the reasons you listed there were tiny pebbles that wouldn't have amounted to shit if the Empire remained united.

Okay fine if you want to say with the perfect conditions the Empire would have easily crushed the Rebellion, and even the New Republic after Endor. So what, those perfect conditions are what is unrealistic

Not even perfect. It would make more sense if the Empire crushed the Rebellion, THEN they descend into in-fighting once they have no outside foe. But again, the Rebels won due to plot. They had to invent reasons like the Battle Meditation going offline throwing the Imperials into chaos, or the Imperial leaders being more obsessed with warlordism and infighting, in order to explain why a galaxy-spanning army lost to a small rebel force. That literally is them winning by plot.

If I were writing a story for why the Rebels won, I would have half the Empire defect to the Rebel side after Endor. They were only kept in fear due to Vader and the Emperor, and those guys are now dead; their soldiers would be more idealistic and want to protect the galaxy, and they saw how the Emperor and Vader abused their power and used the military to keep the galaxy under their thumb, so once they disappear and these officials no longer had to worry about being strangled through the Skype call, they immediately defect to the Alliance and hail Leia as their Empress, as compensation for her losing her homeworld to Tarkin's Death Star. Then the Rebels would have the firepower and numbers necessary to take Coruscant and run the galaxy.

 

[Ghostse]

Remember the hype leading to the release of Episode II?

Episode II hype was nothing like TPM. The online rumor mills were greater due to... more internet. But whule the hype was huge especially compared to films now, it was not as all-pervading as long as TPM was. I think people had their expectations damped by TPM.

 

[Clyde Cash's Left Teste]

Andor season 1 was good but man it was overrated as hell

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

Andor season 1 was good but man it was overrated as hell

It was good, but other works like KOTOR and the Thrawn Trilogy still eclipse it. It isn't the first mature work set in the SW universe.

 

[Midwit]

If anything he took it from a western Buddhist point of view

Star Wars' morality is a result of George trying to mesh his Christian (Methodist) and Buddhist beliefs.

It's hard to have non-humans show complex emotions to the audience.

Babylon 5 did it in the 90s.

he didn't join the Rebels proper because there were so many news segments of them getting their butts kicked by the Empire. Hell

Bel Iblis was a founding member who left because he thought that Mon Mothma was doing a Palpatine.

Even the EU writers knew the Empire should've won Endor based on numbers alone.

Yes, because losing your invincible planet destroying battlestation for the second time along with the Emperor himself and your flagship wouldn't impact the morale of the fleet or their willingness to fight at all.

 

[LovisXVI]

How did the Rebellion, weaker than the New Republic, ever manage to even challenge the united Empire then? The major Rebellion lasted like seven-ish years or something from the signing of the agreement on Corellia by the three biggest rebel groups to create the Alliance, to the battle of Endor

Asymmetrical strategies and superior morale. The same way any modern rebellion survives long enough to the point that they can actually fight their enemy on a peer level. You would be surprised how tenacious a core of dedicated men can be when they don't have to worry about holding territory or maintaining logistics. A good comparison to look at would be the PLA during the Chinese civil war, and that situation was even more bleak compared to that of the Alliance, given they didn't even have wealthy backers inside the enemy government or manufacturing to speak of.

 

[Sleazy Car Salesman]

Asymmetrical strategies and superior morale. The same way any modern rebellion survives long enough to the point that they can actually fight their enemy on a peer level. You would be surprised how tenacious a core of dedicated men can be when they don't have to worry about holding territory or maintaining logistics. A good comparison to look at would be the PLA during the Chinese civil war, and that situation was even more bleak compared to that of the Alliance, given they didn't even have wealthy backers inside the enemy government or manufacturing to speak of.

The Rebel Alliance is basically a mix of Hezbollah and the PIRA.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

Bel Iblis was a founding member who left because he thought that Mon Mothma was doing a Palpatine.

His stated reason to Han was that the Rebels during the OT era were getting their butts kicked all over the place. He literally says that in the Thrawn Trilogy. Han believes him, which then leads to Lando getting a bit mad at Han entertaining Garm despite him deserting the Rebellion.

Yes, because losing your invincible planet destroying battlestation for the second time along with the Emperor himself and your flagship wouldn't impact the morale of the fleet or their willingness to fight at all.

It didn't. The Empire fought on and even retook Coruscant from the New Republic after Thrawn croaked. Literally, Dark Empire starts with the Rebels surveying Coruscant as another round of infighting breaks out between the Imperials before Palpatine returns.

 

[draggs]

Asymmetrical strategies and superior morale. The same way any modern rebellion survives long enough to the point that they can actually fight their enemy on a peer level. You would be surprised how tenacious a core of dedicated men can be when they don't have to worry about holding territory or maintaining logistics. A good comparison to look at would be the PLA during the Chinese civil war, and that situation was even more bleak compared to that of the Alliance, given they didn't even have wealthy backers inside the enemy government or manufacturing to speak of.

That's why I said "then?" It's sarcasm. Based Empire stan Imperator can't believe that the Empire could have possibly lost if it had been "united" against the Rebellion and New Republic

His stated reason to Han was that the Rebels during the OT era were getting their butts kicked all over the place. He literally says that in the Thrawn Trilogy. Han believes him, which then leads to Lando getting a bit mad at Han entertaining Garm despite him deserting the Rebellion.

No, it wasn't. In Dark Force Rising, Bel Iblis' lieutenant Sena says it was because he thought Mon Mothma was going to do a Palpatine, that he and Bail Organa were losing prominence because she was a better politician, better at rallying support. It was partially an ego thing. Bel Iblis said he was better at military strategy and tactics. You give your spin on what he meant, which is incorrect. He did not say that the Rebellion was getting its butt kicked all over the place so he quit to do it on his own. When Thrawn attacks Coruscant and Drayson can't handle it, Leia begs Bel Iblis to take command, he refuses unless Mon Mothma talks to him. He explains why he misjudged Mon Mothma, but he has to hear from her personally that she truly trusts him. Mon Mothma then RKOs him outta nowhere, they settle their differences and Bel Iblis takes command of the defense of Coruscant. I can quote the relevant passages from DFR and also The Last Command

It didn't. The Empire fought on and even retook Coruscant from the New Republic after Thrawn croaked. Literally, Dark Empire starts with the Rebels surveying Coruscant as another round of infighting breaks out between the Imperials before Palpatine returns.

The Empire losing morale and general competence from its defeat at Endor is "literally" established EU canon from the very first few Pellaeon-Thrawn scenes of Heir to the Empire. It is expanded upon repeatedly in later EU novels. This is, once again, you autistically believing that Lord Imperator's opinion > canon