Ukrainian Defensive War against the Russian Invasion - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

From what I have read Lenin and the boys had a real hard on to destroy St. Basil's.

But calmer minds prevailed and somehow convinced the Soviet leadership that destroying irreplaceable cultural artifacts displaying centuries of Russian history was not that smart of an idea. It was a sheer stroke of luck though and how this went down is lost to history.
They had a very vibrant trade in orthodox icons and other art pieces.
They'd loot and strip down entire churches and monasteries and sell of the art works to western collectors.
while they undoubtedly had a hard on for defiling every church. Doing so to one of the most well know ones and in a city that hosts a lot of foreign embassies would have been a bit to open and shown their true intent to the rest of the world just a bit to much.

I would say a million casualties, including wounded and captured, may equate to a million.
I agree that a million would be a bit at the high end of things but it is most likely well over half a million by now.
regardless of the exact number it hints that the 200's and 300's are a lot higher than most people assume.
Even if you assume a million casualties total for the russians considering their shit casevac and medical service half of those being kia is a pretty safe bet.
That's still at least half a million kia, that's more than what the US took in kia during WWII.
But above all that some people that are very much kremlin stooges are starting to open up about just how much this war is costing russia in terms of manpower.
That they one thing the Kremlin fears, losing control over the narrative in russia.

I do believe that he's closer to the truth than not tough given how active the russian shills have been the last day or so.
If it was completely made up they'd not be so active in trying to drown it out.
 
Closing summary
It’s nearly 10.30pm in Kyiv and Moscow. Here’s a recap of the latest developments:

Volodymyr Zelenskyy is sending a delegation, led by his defence minister Rustem Umerov, to peace talks in Istanbul with Russia, paving the way for the first direct negotiations between the two countries since the early weeks of Moscow’s full-scale invasion in 2022. Zelenskyy will not be attending the Istanbul talks himself, after Vladimir Putin refused to travel to Turkey.

Vladimir Putin stayed away from proposed peace talks, leaving Zelenskyy waiting in the Turkish capital after challenging the Russian president to face-to-face negotiations. Putin instead dispatched a second-tier team of aides and deputy ministers to Istanbul, which Zelenskyy described as a “dummy delegation”.

Turkey’s foreign minister, Hakan Fidan, met with the Russian delegation at the Dolmabahçe palace in Istanbul on Thursday evening. The head of the Russian delegation in Turkey, Vladimir Medinsky, said Moscow was “ready for possible compromises” and that it considered the talks as a “continuation” of peace talks that collapsed shortly after Russia’s full-scale invasion in 2022.

The US secretary of state, Marco Rubio, said he will meet with Fidan and a senior Ukrainian delegation in Istanbul on Friday. Rubio and Trump’s special envoy Steve Witkoff are expected to join talks at the Dolmabahçe Palace, though it remains unclear what role they will play. Rubio said the US “doesn’t have high expectations for what will happen tomorrow.”

Rubio said it had become “abundantly clear” that Donald Trump and Putin must hold “frank and direct” talks. “I don’t think we’re going to have a breakthrough here until President Trump and President Putin interact directly on this topic,” Rubio told reporters. He said the “level of the Russian delegation in Turkey is “certainly not indicative” of a breakthrough in peace talks.

Zelenskyy said Putin’s decision not to attend talks in Ankara showed that Russia was not taking efforts to end the war seriously. The Ukrainian president said he had decided to send officials from Ankara to Istanbul “out of respect” for Donald Trump and Turkey’s president, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan.

Donald Trump said he did not expect progress on Ukraine until he meets Putin in person. Trump suggested he might still travel to Turkey on Friday “if something happened” at the talks. But by nightfall on Thursday, there was little sign that any last-minute summit involving the US president was in the works.

Russia’s foreign minister Sergei Lavrov said Zelenskyy was “pathetic” for demanding Putin attend peace talks in Istanbul. Russia’s foreign ministry spokesperson accused the Ukrainian leader of being a “clown and loser”.

Keir Starmer accused Putin of “dragging his feet” after the Russian leader failed to show for peace talks in Turkey. Meanwhile the UK defence secretary John Healey, said Ukraine’s allies “need to act” and “put pressure on Putin” amid uncertainty over peace talks in Turkey.

To the surprise of no one, Putin chickens out, sending some no marks with no power to agree anything while the drunken woman and the donkey Lavrov sling the usual unseemly abuse.


Guardian original link

The short clip above raises the fear that of impatience Trump will try negotiate something close to surrender of Ukraine to somehow score a win from all this, which Ukraine will reject. However, while Trump has been slow to deliver on any threats to Russia concerning sanctions, the witless pandering largely ended with witless Wikloff with Trump simply rejecting timewasting Russian demands for half of Ukraine. There is no possible way they'd be able to conquer that within even a Russian male lifespan.
 
The short clip above raises the fear that of impatience Trump will try negotiate something close to surrender of Ukraine to somehow score a win from all this, which Ukraine will reject. However, while Trump has been slow to deliver on any threats to Russia concerning sanctions, the witless pandering largely ended with witless Wikloff with Trump simply rejecting timewasting Russian demands for half of Ukraine. There is no possible way they'd be able to conquer that within even a Russian male lifespan.
I think Trump is just trying to argue how this doesn't reflect poorly on him after he was publicly supporting Putin and Zelensky sitting down with each other.

Putin very obviously doesn't want to go along with any peace talks of Trump's, so is regularly snubbing him as Trump flails around with his attempts, but Trump doesn't want to dare suggest this is a sign of disrespect towards him since it'd mean:

1) He isn't respected as some strong leader the way he likes to fantasize
2) They need to do the secondary tariffs to attempt to increase pressure on Putin

Edit:

Peace breakthrough unlikely as Putin declines to meet Zelenskiy in Turkey​


ISTANBUL/ANKARA, May 15 (Reuters) - Russia's Vladimir Putin spurned a challenge to meet face-to-face with Volodymyr Zelenskiy in Turkey on Thursday, instead sending a second-tier delegation to planned peace talks, while Ukraine's president said his defence minister would head up Kyiv's team.

They will be the first direct talks between the sides since March 2022, but hopes of a major breakthrough were further dented by U.S. President Donald Trump who said there would be no movement without a meeting between himself and Putin.

U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio later echoed that view, telling reporters in the Turkish resort of Antalya that Washington "didn't have high expectations" for the Ukraine talks in Istanbul.

Zelenskiy said Putin's decision not to attend but to send what he called a "decorative" line-up showed the Russian leader was not serious about ending the war. Russia accused Ukraine of trying "to put on a show" around the talks.

It was not clear when the talks would actually begin.

"We can't be running around the world looking for Putin," Zelenskiy said after meeting Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan in Ankara.

"I feel disrespect from Russia. No meeting time, no agenda, no high-level delegation - this is personal disrespect. To Erdogan, to Trump," Zelenskiy told reporters.

Zelenskiy said he himself would also not now go to Istanbul and that his team's mandate was to discuss a ceasefire.

Ukraine backs an immediate, unconditional 30-day ceasefire but Putin has said he first wants to start talks at which the details of such a truce could be discussed. More than three years after its full-scale invasion, Russia has the advantage on the battlefield and says Ukraine could use a pause in the war to call up extra troops and acquire more Western weapons.

Both Trump and Putin have said for months they are keen to meet each other, but no date has been set. Trump, after piling heavy pressure on Ukraine and clashing with Zelenskiy in the Oval Office in February, has lately expressed growing impatience that Putin may be "tapping me along".

"Nothing's going to happen until Putin and I get together," Trump told reporters aboard Air Force One.

Rubio, speaking in the Turkish resort of Antalya, later echoed that: "It's my assessment that I don't think we're going to have a breakthrough here until the President (Trump) and President Putin interact directly on this topic."

Referring to the current state of the talks as a "logjam", Rubio said he would travel to Istanbul to meet with Turkey's foreign minister and with Ukraine's delegation on Friday.

DIPLOMATIC CONFUSION​

The diplomatic disarray was symptomatic of the deep hostility between the warring sides and the unpredictability injected by Trump, whose interventions since returning to the White House in January have often provoked dismay from Ukraine and its European allies.

While Zelenskiy waited in vain for Putin in Ankara, the Russian negotiating team sat in Istanbul with no one to talk to on the Ukrainian side. Some 200 reporters milled around near the Dolmabahce Palace on the Bosphorus that the Russians had specified as the talks venue.

The enemies have been wrestling for months over the logistics of ceasefires and peace talks while trying to show Trump they are serious about trying to end what he calls "this stupid war".

Hundreds of thousands have been killed and wounded on both sides in the deadliest conflict in Europe since World War Two. Washington has threatened repeatedly to abandon its mediation efforts unless there is clear progress.

Asked if Putin would join talks at some future point, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said: "What kind of participation will be required further, at what level, it is too early to say now."

Russia said on Thursday its forces had captured two more settlements in Ukraine's Donetsk region. A spokeswoman for Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov pointedly reminded reporters of his comment last year that Ukraine was "getting smaller" in the absence of an agreement to stop fighting.

FIRST TALKS FOR THREE YEARS​

Once they start, the talks will have to address a chasm between the two sides over a host of issues.

The Russian delegation is headed by presidential adviser Vladimir Medinsky, a former culture minister who has overseen the rewriting of history textbooks to reflect Moscow's narrative on the war. It includes a deputy defence minister, a deputy foreign minister and the head of military intelligence.

Key members of the team, including its leader, were also involved in the last direct peace talks in Istanbul in March 2022 - and Medinsky confirmed on Thursday that Russia saw the new talks as a resumption of those interrupted three years ago.

"The task of direct negotiations with the Ukrainian side is sooner or later to achieve long-term peace by eliminating the basic root causes of the conflict," said Medinsky.

The terms under discussion in 2022, when Ukraine was still reeling from Russia's initial invasion, would be deeply disadvantageous to Kyiv. They included a demand by Moscow for deep cuts to the size of Ukraine's military.

With Russian forces now in control of close to a fifth of Ukraine, Putin has held fast to his longstanding demands for Kyiv to cede territory, abandon its NATO membership ambitions and become a neutral country.

Ukraine rejects these terms as tantamount to capitulation, and is seeking guarantees of its future security from world powers, especially the United States.


Zelenskiy said Putin's decision not to attend but to send what he called a "decorative" line-up showed the Russian leader was not serious about ending the war. Russia accused Ukraine of trying "to put on a show" around the talks.

It was not clear when the talks would actually begin.

"We can't be running around the world looking for Putin," Zelenskiy said after meeting Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan in Ankara.

"I feel disrespect from Russia. No meeting time, no agenda, no high-level delegation - this is personal disrespect. To Erdogan, to Trump," Zelenskiy told reporters.
Basically Europe and Zelensky keep trying to point out how Putin is clearly disrespecting Trump and so you can take Trump's comments as ass covering to try and dismiss everyone pointing this out to him.
 
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Not like Zelensky didn't do this circus just to suck up to Trump, to show he's "interested in peace", in order to secure more US supplies.
Putin has no reason to make any concessions, as they're winning on the battlefield and there's a near 0 chance this will change in the future.
 
Given the alternatives include United States getting into another active war and one against a nuclear power. "Nothing ever happens" is the more attractive option.
Secondary or rather enforced sanctions that block grey market sanctions busting trade via Kyrgyzstan or other third countries, the US Navy aiding the stopping of rotten Russian tankers are eminently doable.

Not like Zelensky didn't do this circus just to suck up to Trump, to show he's "interested in peace", in order to secure more US supplies.
Putin has no reason to make any concessions, as they're winning on the battlefield and there's a near 0 chance this will change in the future.
Winning?

Glacial progress in return for colossal casualties is not winning you communist. Every day the drones are a hunting and bag plenty every day.
 
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Winning?

Glacial progress in return for colossal casualties is not winning you communist. Every day the drones are a hunting and bag plenty every day.
Do you really care about the dead Russians?
Safe to assume Ukraine has lost similar numbers and resources for them are a lot more limited, especially now as the "Free World" is starting to get tired of the conflict.
Continuing the conflict today benefits Ukrainians in no shape or form anymore.
 
Do you really care about the dead Russians?
Safe to assume Ukraine has lost similar numbers and resources for them are a lot more limited, especially now as the "Free World" is starting to get tired of the conflict.
Continuing the conflict today benefits Ukrainians in no shape or form anymore.
No it isn't safe to assume similar casualties. The Moskals send the most ragged specimens forward on the stolen cars and motorbikes. Ukraine largely relies on drones and defensive operations which inc small offensive efforts. People aren't tiring. That's a red trope. The benefit for fighting is not suffering genocide Ukrainian identity is entirely repressed in the ragged red ruled 20% when people are not being murdered with organs stolen.
 
WILL PUTIN SHOW UP IN ISTANBUL? Vote with stickers.

:agree: Yes
:optimistic: Yes, and progress towards peace will be achieved.
:disagree: No
:lunacy: Yes, but as a stalling tactic. Will probably walk out and nothing will be achieved.
:feels:Russia will launch Ballistic missiles and Drones on Thursday as a final "Fuck you" to peace talks.
A Drone attack killed 2 civilians and wounded 2 in Kostyantynivka. People who voted with a :feels: , please go collect your prizes. :lossmanjack:
 
No it isn't safe to assume similar casualties. The Moskals send the most ragged specimens forward on the stolen cars and motorbikes. Ukraine largely relies on drones and defensive operations which inc small offensive efforts. People aren't tiring. That's a red trope. The benefit for fighting is not suffering genocide Ukrainian identity is entirely repressed in the ragged red ruled 20% when people are not being murdered with organs stolen.
Ok, your beliefs are frankly comedical. It's quite obvious which side is the ragtag bunch. Also I'm sure the Russian vast artillery advantage is just wasted on ploughing empty fields.

Well it's either 20% now or more down the line. People won't stick with the losing side for long, glacial or not. The only real question now is how long will it take Russia to recuperate and move on to the Baltics.
 
Ok, your beliefs are frankly comedical. It's quite obvious which side is the ragtag bunch. Also I'm sure the Russian vast artillery advantage is just wasted on ploughing empty fields.

Well it's either 20% now or more down the line. People won't stick with the losing side for long, glacial or not. The only real question now is how long will it take Russia to recuperate and move on to the Baltics.
You are assuming technology will not modify the results. Nukes are old tech. And I've heard some analysts working on actual AI drone swarms. The technology isn't mature, YET. Some estimates give it two years tops. The situation also depends on which tech is allowed to go to Ukraine. Grippens, Meteor missiles and Taurus are game changers. Russian glacial progress is not a given.
 
You are assuming technology will not modify the results. Nukes are old tech. And I've heard some analysts working on actual AI drone swarms. The technology isn't mature, YET. Some estimates give it two years tops. The situation also depends on which tech is allowed to go to Ukraine. Grippens, Meteor missiles and Taurus are game changers. Russian glacial progress is not a given.
What are you talking about?
Didn't British suffer similar casualties as the Mahdi army in battle of Omdurman?
 
You are assuming technology will not modify the results. Nukes are old tech. And I've heard some analysts working on actual AI drone swarms. The technology isn't mature, YET. Some estimates give it two years tops. The situation also depends on which tech is allowed to go to Ukraine. Grippens, Meteor missiles and Taurus are game changers. Russian glacial progress is not a given.
AI drone shows aren't anything new - Chinks are even doing shows with them and on an abstract level the multi-lateral drone strikes are sort of a more disconnected iteration of it.
Gripen is about as good as an F-16, better if they don't give ancient scrap again. Though I think the West is massively fumbling by giving Ukraine this patchwork technological infrastructure to work with, which certainly is a hinderance. Just the logistics of maintenance parts must be a nightmare.
Taurus is more or less an Iskander equivalent, all things considered.
As the help is beginning to wane, because the West hasn't scaled up it's military production, things are not looking good.
 
Ok, your beliefs are frankly comedical. It's quite obvious which side is the ragtag bunch. Also I'm sure the Russian vast artillery advantage is just wasted on ploughing empty fields.

Well it's either 20% now or more down the line. People won't stick with the losing side for long, glacial or not. The only real question now is how long will it take Russia to recuperate and move on to the Baltics.
It's 'comedic'.

The 'vast artillery advantage' largely belongs to the past and isn't as relevant where Russians perish or surrender to drones. The contractors are basically gopniks and habitual criminals its government prefers were dead. You people don't understand the West. Russians are only liked by a class of burger retards and the red army rape babies of the former East Germany. Neither matter too much except for the irritation value. Ukraine fights against the attempted white genocide by the Golden Horde's successor state. It cannot cease fighting until the kgb midget topples over.
 
The contractors are basically gopniks and habitual criminals its government prefers were dead.
So all cannon fodder, ever?
You people don't understand the West. Russians are only liked by a class of burger retards and the red army rape babies of the former East Germany.
Never said they do like Russia though. But they don't hate it enough to sacrifice much, as is evident from the progression of this conflict.
If West was actually trying, Ukraine would at the very least would have it's own territories back. Though I guess Crimea would be a nightmare to retake.
Ukraine fights against the attempted white genocide by the Golden Horde's successor state. It cannot cease fighting until the kgb midget topples over.
The West only really cares about the latter though and that purely because they'd just like to turn Russia into their own cluster of puppet states, not because they think Ukraine's cause is heccin valid and just. If Ukraine won the war, then the nationalists would get thrown to the wayside immediately as they'd get in the way of business.
 
Also I'm sure the Russian vast artillery advantage is just wasted on ploughing empty fields.
Unironically yes. Russia's artillery doctrine is focused on massed firepower as a substitute for precision, which results in tens of thousands of kilos of ordinance being expended in walking barrages across empty fields.
 
Unironically yes. Russia's artillery doctrine is focused on massed firepower as a substitute for precision, which results in tens of thousands of kilos of ordinance being expended in walking barrages across empty fields.
Ahh yes, I'm sure they're back to post-Stalin regime antics, where the artillery battalions are just living to report how many tons of ordnance they've used up, not caring about if something was actually achieved.
 
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