- Joined
- May 18, 2025
I have played "Genso Wanderer Reloaded" around 50~+ hours and so far its my most favorite fan-made game. Is Genso Wanderer Foresight/Lotus Labyrinth worth the try?
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- Joined
- Dec 6, 2020
From what I can tell from popular opinion, Genso Wanderer Reloaded is the best received out of the three here.
Lotus Labyrinth is a "remake" of an untranslated game AQUA STYLE has re-released. Its main thing is you can bring lots of party members into a dungeon, so it can get a little chaotic.
Foresight appears to be lackluster, more forgiving if you get reduced to 0 HP in a dungeon, and seems to require heavy grinding. Some of the recent (and by recent I mean about one year ago) Steam reviews don't recommend it.
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2019
Cross-posting this from the AI Art Seething thread, as ZUN has responded to the controversy surrounding his use of AI in the upcoming Touhou game.
Giga Troll
kiwifarms.net
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2024
this response is likely just going to piss people off even more, he should just ignore the annoying ass western side of the community entirely. personally i don't think it's that big of a deal if he's only using it for minor assets, but people really have been taking a tribalistic "anti-AI vs AI" approach to this lately where even minor use of AI puts you on a "team" which they can project their own personal beliefs onto while ignoring any nuance whatsoever. as long as he doesn't replace any art, stage backgrounds, or anything that requires creative effort with it i don't really give a shit
Guy who lurks
kiwifarms.net
- Joined
- Feb 15, 2024
Disingenuous behavior, just because your software supports ai generation doesn't mean that you HAVE to use it.
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2023
Sure, you don't have to use the generative features in Adobe's products if you know what you're doing. But it seems like some people really don't want to come to terms that Ota-san even chose to use AI at all, for what is simply a tool. Like as if he's some malicious actor who planned this out on purpose to take artists down and it's the end of Touhou as we know it according to doomspergs who try to perceive it as such. I find it rather worrying with certain users giving the least charitable interpretations of Ota's comments to drive their points home while moving the goalposts if it's not so black and white. This behavior I've seen is getting real old if I'm gonna be real here. I also have no means to accuse you, Minecraft Lurker Guy, of being against AI to an absolute but the excerpts from the passage doesn't mean exactly what you think it is.
ZUN's point more so stems from the fact that Generative AI has become such a revolutionary breakthrough within recent times of technology, it's gotten to a point that finding anything that doesn't have the engines built-in has become a rarity. Excuses or otherwise, I find it perfectly understandable why he said the things he's said. Japan does not have an all-or-nothing perspective on the subject so people there can have a more nuanced take on weighing the pros and cons in order to grasp the true utilization of the tool. That transcript on Note was very well-articulated on his viewpoint of AI in a more artistic sense of what this will mean for future artists wanting to create. Some might claim this as damage control or appeasement to the anti-AI crowd to calm things down but I didn't find too much that was wrong with it. You can't always cater to the ungrateful who does not build their own foundations, y'know.
Since we also don't have an idea if AI is going to stick around for later titles, I wouldn't quite jump ship just yet. You can always get back to me if he's starting to use Midjourney to generate the character portraits, though. That's how we will know the series has become hollow, with ZUN confirmed as a total sell-out, a hack, and a major hypocrite who never cared about doujin, its integrity, and regrets nothing commercializing Touhou in everything but what it claims it is.
ZUN's point more so stems from the fact that Generative AI has become such a revolutionary breakthrough within recent times of technology, it's gotten to a point that finding anything that doesn't have the engines built-in has become a rarity. Excuses or otherwise, I find it perfectly understandable why he said the things he's said. Japan does not have an all-or-nothing perspective on the subject so people there can have a more nuanced take on weighing the pros and cons in order to grasp the true utilization of the tool. That transcript on Note was very well-articulated on his viewpoint of AI in a more artistic sense of what this will mean for future artists wanting to create. Some might claim this as damage control or appeasement to the anti-AI crowd to calm things down but I didn't find too much that was wrong with it. You can't always cater to the ungrateful who does not build their own foundations, y'know.
Since we also don't have an idea if AI is going to stick around for later titles, I wouldn't quite jump ship just yet. You can always get back to me if he's starting to use Midjourney to generate the character portraits, though. That's how we will know the series has become hollow, with ZUN confirmed as a total sell-out, a hack, and a major hypocrite who never cared about doujin, its integrity, and regrets nothing commercializing Touhou in everything but what it claims it is.
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- Joined
- Jan 8, 2023
That's how you know the people claiming this don't play the games. It's, by its demo alone, a great entry in the series. Boggles the mind when there're people who are saying everything is going down hill when 20 looks to be a massive improvement, but we already know it's mostly people looking for something to get mad at.
- Joined
- May 18, 2025
The other two seem dull from what I just read, it should have kept the same mechanic as reloaded. Thank you
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2019
Hard to really say without knowing the software he used. However, if your argument is that ZUN should never use AI in the first place, then let's examine it against the common arguments that people use against AI generation and see how they hold up:
- "AI is taking jobs away from artists!" ZUN is a solo creator 98% of the time. There was no job opening for anyone outside of ZUN's closest collaborators like Twilight Frontier or the various artists for his manga works, neither of which he hired for this game.
- "AI is stealing artwork!" The AI was trained on non-commercial stock images, meaning that if you believe that AI being trained on publicly available art online is art theft, then if we take Adobe at their word, no such thing was committed in the process of ZUN creating his backgrounds.
- "ZUN using AI means he's lazy as an artist!" ZUN only used AI in ways that he would've used stock images for in the past. He didn't draw those. He only edited them together in Photoshop. No-one had any problems back then, but now that there's AI built on stock images, all of a sudden it's a problem?
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2023
Already so soon, it may seem like the noise the overseas fans have made might've been enough. Why I'm saying that is because Richard has made yet another thread briefly explaining to Japanese users how Generative AI has become such a very controversial topic in the Western world. In turn, this now gives a first glance into the anti-AI perspective with no language barriers getting in the way.
After it became clear that Touhou Nishikijokyo used generative AI, many English-speaking fans responded strongly negatively. I think there is a high possibility that a similar reaction will occur to this explanation of Touhou Station. I will explain why this is the case.
First of all, my Japanese is not Japanese. Therefore, I think that there are many strange Japanese words mixed in this explanation. I apologize if it is difficult to understand.
The biggest reason is that in English-speaking countries, the issue of AI is not a problem of "creativity" or "artism" but a problem of "morality". Many companies cut staff and use AI instead. (Image is machine translated)
In addition, generative AI makes it difficult to find correct information and the spread of misinformation has increased significantly. From an educational perspective, AI has caused a sharp increase in fraudulent activities.
In addition, the power demand and water consumption of learning AI can be a heavy burden on the environment, so it is also an environmental problem.
In other words, in English-speaking countries, AI is not just a commercial, artistic, or rights issue, but is already a socio-political, labor, environmental, and educational issue. Therefore, we can no longer afford to see AI as a "tool." It is an issue that must be addressed immediately.
ZUN's use of AI is not a concern of "losing out in terms of creativity," but rather a concern of "losing out in terms of morality." It has been seen as a stance that "it's convenient, so it's okay for others to lose."
Of course, ZUN is not responsible for the problems of other countries. However, as a world-famous creator, the use of AI is seen as an endorsement of "technology to replace humans," or an encouragement of the mindset that "this important person uses it, so I can use it too."
This explains a little bit about the situation of English-speaking people. From the perspective of English-speaking people, this issue is not just a question of "whether to use a tool or not," but a question of "whether society will abandon humans and be dominated by AI in the future." That's why I'm desperately trying to make ZUN understand.
I'm sorry if I'm being difficult to understand. I hope this thread helps me understand the circumstances of people in English-speaking countries.
Thank you for reading this far.
First of all, my Japanese is not Japanese. Therefore, I think that there are many strange Japanese words mixed in this explanation. I apologize if it is difficult to understand.
The biggest reason is that in English-speaking countries, the issue of AI is not a problem of "creativity" or "artism" but a problem of "morality". Many companies cut staff and use AI instead. (Image is machine translated)
In addition, generative AI makes it difficult to find correct information and the spread of misinformation has increased significantly. From an educational perspective, AI has caused a sharp increase in fraudulent activities.
In addition, the power demand and water consumption of learning AI can be a heavy burden on the environment, so it is also an environmental problem.
In other words, in English-speaking countries, AI is not just a commercial, artistic, or rights issue, but is already a socio-political, labor, environmental, and educational issue. Therefore, we can no longer afford to see AI as a "tool." It is an issue that must be addressed immediately.
ZUN's use of AI is not a concern of "losing out in terms of creativity," but rather a concern of "losing out in terms of morality." It has been seen as a stance that "it's convenient, so it's okay for others to lose."
Of course, ZUN is not responsible for the problems of other countries. However, as a world-famous creator, the use of AI is seen as an endorsement of "technology to replace humans," or an encouragement of the mindset that "this important person uses it, so I can use it too."
This explains a little bit about the situation of English-speaking people. From the perspective of English-speaking people, this issue is not just a question of "whether to use a tool or not," but a question of "whether society will abandon humans and be dominated by AI in the future." That's why I'm desperately trying to make ZUN understand.
I'm sorry if I'm being difficult to understand. I hope this thread helps me understand the circumstances of people in English-speaking countries.
Thank you for reading this far.
Aside from that and the fact that copyright, trademark, and IP laws tend to be taken very seriously in Japan, let us take a look at how the JP natives are reacting. There has been a noticeable increase of them beginning to speak their minds on this subject more freely. Some in which are not at all amused about it.
"If ZUN meant that 'backgrounds aren't creative,' it's an insult to the creators who create the world's amazing backgrounds, and even if he meant that "it's okay to use generative AI in areas where you can't be creative," that's no excuse for ignoring the rights of others and stealing their creations."
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"ZUN's opinion that "I don't think background work is creative, so I use generative AI" should be understood as "I don't see value in background artists, so I'm going to pay money to a machine that steals their work and composites it" is the worst possible position statement.
It's out of the question that he still denies it after witnessing the exploitative structure of generative AI for the past three years.
If he "isn't using it for any part that demonstrates his creativity," he could have outsourced it to a background artist.
So when he goes to the trouble of relying on a generative AI that arbitrarily treats other people's copyrighted work as composite material and doesn't pay a penny for it, it's no wonder people suspect that he looks down on background artists."
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One user even makes a little point about how anyone who thinks they're different from the rest of the AI power users are actually more similar than on the surface and Ota happens to be one of them.
"There are a lot of people who think they are different from the rest of the generation AI users (´・ω・`)
The moment you use a generation AI that uses someone else's work without permission, you have no right to talk about creativity.
I don't know if he's a priest or something, but he's just one of the underhanded generation AI users who plays with words to justify his unauthorized use."
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Meanwhile, other JP speakers are more skeptical of this reaction, from making excuses to further explaining the cultural differences of game creation and accountability for material that isn't the creator's.
"If you are engaged in creative activities, you should be able to understand what problems the current generative AI has and that it is not a matter of winning or losing based on the output..."
"When it comes to games, the whole game is a single work, so it is quite natural to say that the parts you were not involved in are stolen materials."At least one of them were grateful for learning how a few overseas fans feel about the subject.
"I see, I am Japanese and tend to lean towards AI supporters, but the criticism from English-speaking countries this time is happening because the problems surrounding generative AI in other countries are happening closer to the lives of many more people. Thank you for sharing the information in Japanese. (continued in the reply section)
I think that in order to solve this problem, it is important for people in various positions to understand each other's problems (and for appropriate legal arrangements to be made), so thank you for giving me this opportunity"
What about those few North American/Euros who are still harping on about it? Well, why don't we take a look? I seem to see a common trend of the same two to three people obsessing over the subject among other things, not at all shocking since they have some sort of parasocial relationship with ZUN in a way that is entirely negative much like Spaztron and OppositeWinner.
Where a few are disappointed, people like Pin Clock, Flame Sniper, and Mamizoo can't shut up about it, simply going "ZUN and Ruw bad because misuse, laziness, and loose ethics
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What a total shitshow this whole AI thing has been. And that's not even the worst of it, I shudder to think what the critical reception and ZUN's (potentially) next response will look like in the next week. There's just constant escalation and Richard sure fanned the flames with his thread.
Nothingburger or something more? You'll have to decide.
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2019
Speaking of AI, Ruw has decided to throw gasoline onto the fire. I've captured some of the fallout on Reddit in the AI thread.
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- Apr 17, 2025
How much potential playerbase is zun missing out on by doing this? Like what, a few dozen xitter troon "2hu fans" who ACTUALLY play the games and keep up with them?
- Joined
- May 18, 2025
they can complain all they want, but they will still play the game anyway. most wouldnt care of AI generated "content" used. The loudest(yet small audience doing so) may be visible present in the *Western* Audience but again Touhou is a big franchise internationally.
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2023
about tree fiddy
Guy who lurks
kiwifarms.net
- Joined
- Feb 15, 2024
please describe how [insert software name here] forces you to use AI in your games.
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2023
im just imagining adobe ai being like the ring from lotr, tempting zun to use it
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- Aug 31, 2016
The internet would be a much happier place if people stopped overreacting about AI (it's an unstoppable change, just like cars and phones) and made more Nareko fanart.
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- Apr 12, 2018
My view of it is that like NFTs, AI Art will eventually fade like any other trend. It might take longer or maybe even never, but who knows? Time is an eternal strive towards an unknown future.
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2019
>I don't really know because I haven't used the software.
>Oh yeah? Explain to me how you have to use AI!
Learn to read, dumbass.
I'm not sure if it'll ever go away, because the temptation to get instant, high-quality results without needing to pay an artist are just too great. However, I remain optimistic in favor of artists, because the camera didn't make painters obsolete. AI doesn't have real creativity, it can only churn out things based on what it's been fed, so human artists with real creativity will always have a job in the end.
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2023
A bit of a different topic but what I've found interesting is that every spritesheet in Touhou 6 uses .png format, while drawings (like the ending sequence or the initial loading screen) use .jpg, I wonder why he chose to do it this way.
Also he was still using Photoshop 3.0 at that time.
(taken from end00.jpg)
Also he was still using Photoshop 3.0 at that time.
(taken from end00.jpg)