Culture The fertility conversation we’re not having - Our economy isn’t built for the biological clock. But it can be.

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Everyone should have the right to decide if and when they have children. Yet over the past 50 years, the United States has built an economy that increasingly works against fertility — demanding more years in school and longer hours at work for people, especially women, in the years when it is biologically easiest for them to have children, and concentrating wealth and income among those past their reproductive prime.

As a result, American schools and workplaces are particularly ill-suited for supporting those who hope to start families earlier than average.

“If I were to complain about how society ‘has wronged me as a woman,’ it would be that it has treated my limited ‘fertility time’ with extreme disregard,” wrote Ruxandra Teslo, a genomics PhD student, recently on Substack. “At each step of the way I was encouraged to ‘be patient,’ do more training, told that ‘things will figure themselves out,’ even when I wanted and could have speedrun through things.”

The average age of a new mom is now 27.5, up from age 21 in 1970. I had no interest in having kids in my early twenties, but there are certainly reasons others might want that: Fertility decreases with age, and some find it easier to keep up with young children when they themselves are younger and have more energy. Others hope for larger families so may need to start conceiving earlier, or may prioritize making sure their own parents have many years to spend with grandkids.

Of course, discussing reproductive timelines is fraught. Having others invoke the fact that women experience a decline in fertility with age feels intrusive and insensitive. And the conversation is even trickier today, when anti-abortion activists are pushing a conservative pro-baby agenda from the highest echelons of government and the Heritage Foundation is putting out literature blaming falling birth rates on too many people going to graduate school. (The evidence for that is very weak.)

Yet it’s precisely in such moments that progressive leaders should offer clear alternatives that both respect women’s autonomy and ensure people can make less constrained choices.

If mainstream feminism ignores the barriers to early parenthood, the right will be all too eager to fill the void. “If the so-called feminists, as long as they play it by the elite rules, refuse to take seriously what [we] can do to support young families, then the right can move in and say, ‘You might as well give up on your stupid ideas and career aspirations,’” marriage historian Stephanie Coontz told me.

Not everyone wants to become a parent, but most women do still say they wish to have children one day. If we’re serious about reproductive justice, then it’s a mistake to ignore how our schools and workplaces have evolved to be broadly hostile to both fertility and parenthood. Having kids at a younger age is not inherently better — but for those who want to do it, the economy shouldn’t be working against them at every step.

Colleges need to support parents, pregnant students, and prospective parents​

Many women believe, correctly, that college and graduate education are important paths not only for their own financial well-being, but also to afford raising kids in a country that offers so little support to families. The idea that people can just up and abandon higher education to have kids, per the Heritage Foundation, isn’t serious.

“We’ve just done so much to obscure the reality and to make it seem like, oh, moms are asking for too much, or they’re postponing too long, or maybe they shouldn’t be going to school so much,” said Jennifer Glass, a sociologist at University of Texas Austin who studies fertility and gender. “What an idiotic thing to say. The only way that women can get wages that are at all comparable to what’s necessary to raise a family is by getting a college degree.”

Yet the US has built one of the longest, most expensive educational pipelines in the world.

One reason many American students take longer to finish undergraduate degrees (or don’t finish at all) is because of financial pressures that students abroad don’t face.

Nations like Germany, France, and Norway offer free or heavily subsidized university education, while others, including the UK and Australia, have manageable, easily navigable income-based repayment systems. American students are more likely to be juggling multiple jobs alongside coursework, stretching the time to graduation.

The timeline stretches even longer for medical, legal, and doctoral degrees — tacking on years of extra training and credentialing that aren’t required elsewhere.

“There’s been an increase in the number of years of schooling that is totally unnecessary,” Claudia Goldin, a Harvard economist and Nobel Prize winner, told me, pointing to, among other factors, the explosion of post-docs and pre-docs, plus pressure for applicants to acquire some work experience before even beginning their graduate studies.

“I went to graduate school immediately after college, and schools like UChicago and MIT had rules then that if you were there for more than four years, you paid tuition, so that incentivized people to finish,” she said.
When educational timelines keep stretching with no structural support for parenting, the result is predictable: some people delay having children — or abandon those plans entirely.

This isn’t to say there are no parents on university campuses. There are roughly 3 million undergraduates — one in five college students — in the US today who have kids. But student parents are too often rendered invisible because most colleges don’t collect data on them and harbor outdated assumptions about who even seeks higher education.

“Colleges and universities still cater to what is considered ‘traditional students’ — so 18- to 24-year-olds who are getting financial assistance from their parents,” said Jennifer Turner, a sociologist at the Institute for Women’s Policy Research.

Student parents are far less likely to be receiving financial help from their own families than students of the same age and background without kids — and in general they’re more likely to struggle to afford basic needs. But most campuses neglect their unique challenges and fail to provide them with resources like on-campus housing, kid-friendly spaces, and child care support.

The Trump administration’s new budget proposal calls for gutting the only federal program that helps student parents with child care. And while pregnant students are entitled to some federal protections under the Americans with Disabilities Act and Title IX, in practice many students never even learn about them, or face intense stigma for using them.

For graduate students in particular, there’s no shortage of examples of students receiving both implicit and explicit signals to delay childbearing. Research found women were twice as likely as men to cite child care and parenting as reasons for leaving academia.

The financial fears are not irrational​

Whether or not women want to have children in their early or mid-twenties, many feel they can’t — because the career paths they pursue require longer routes to stability.

Women are more often funneled into professions that demand extra time, whether through extended schooling, slower advancement, or the need to earn extra credentials to prove themselves. Many fields where women are concentrated, like education, social work, psychology, and nursing, require graduate training for higher-paying roles. In contrast, men are more likely to enter skilled trades or businesses where higher earnings are possible without advanced degrees.

Goldin, the economist, pointed to the problem of the “rat race equilibrium” — where individuals over-invest accumulating credentials not because doing so is intrinsically valuable, but because everyone else is doing the same. In this situation, falling behind the pack carries high costs.

“People want a great job, so they stay in graduate school ‘too long.’ Firms want the best lawyer, so they keep associates for ‘too long.’ I don’t know what the optimal length is. But I do know that the addition of so many more years means that women will be more discouraged than will men,” she told me.

These extended educational timelines feed directly into jobs that are also not designed to support parenting during a woman’s prime childbearing years. Early-career workers typically earn less, have more precarious roles and rigid schedules, and often face more pressure to be fully available to employers to prove their commitment and worth.

Some then move on to what Goldin calls “greedy careers”: Law firms, consulting companies, and hospitals that demand total availability, rewarding those who can work weekends and penalizing those who seek more predictable schedules. For many parents it’s a double bind: the educational trajectories and high-paying jobs that make raising kids affordable are often the same ones with demands that make balancing family life nearly impossible.

We can structure society differently​

Fertility tech hasn’t yet conquered the biological clock, but we did build this economy — which means we can rebuild it differently.

Advocating for more efficient and more affordable education isn’t a retreat from academic rigor, but a clear-eyed confrontation with institutions that remain indifferent at best to having children. The most forward-thinking places will see that compressed, focused educational paths aren’t diluting standards, but respecting the fullness of human lives and creating systems where intellectual achievement doesn’t demand reproductive sacrifice.

Exactly how to help students manage timelines will vary. For those looking at careers in math and science, for example, there may be opportunities to take advanced courses in high school. Others would benefit from more financial aid, or using experiential learning credit, or enrolling in accelerated BA/MA programs. Some employers should be rethinking their mandates for college degrees at all.

But even with educational reforms, parents would still face legal barriers that other groups don’t. It’s still legal in many cases to discriminate against parents in hiring or housing. Making parents a protected class would be a straightforward step toward making parenthood more compatible with economic security.

Stronger labor regulations could also curb workplace coercion, and policies like those in Scandinavia — which allow parents to reduce their work hours when raising young children — could make it easier to balance kids with holding down a job.

The rise of remote work offers additional paths forward, and expanding it could reduce the stark either/or choices many prospective parents face. And there are other policy ideas that could make parenthood more affordable even when people are early in their career. Other high-income countries offer parents monthly child allowances, baby bonuses, subsidized child care, and paid parental leave. The US could follow suit — and go further — by investing in affordable housing, reducing the cost of college, and decoupling health care from employment.

For now, our current system abdicates responsibility. As Glass points out, while parents are paying more to have children, it’s employers and governments that reap the benefits of those adult workers and taxpayers, without shouldering the decades-long costs of training and raising them.

“What no one wants to face is that 150 years ago, when everyone lived on farms, having children did not make you poor, but they do today,” said Glass. “Children used to benefit their parents, they were part of the dominion of the patriarch, and when children did well the patriarch benefited. Now it’s employers and governments who benefit from well-raised children.”

It’s not feminist to ignore this​

I understand the reluctance to have these conversations. We don’t want the government poking around in our bedrooms, especially when some lawmakers are already on a mission to restrict reproductive freedom. It’s tempting to say policymakers and institutions should just shut up about any further discussion regarding having kids.

But that’s not serving people, either. Many other countries already confront these challenges with much more deliberate care. Honest conversations about fertility don’t need to be about telling women when or whether to have children — they should be about removing the artificial barriers that make it feel impossible to have kids at different stages of life.

This would all certainly be much easier if men stepped up to take these pressures more seriously. “If men felt as compelled as women to take time off, if men were experiencing the same thing, I think we’d get a lot more creative,” said Coontz.

We should continue investing in fertility technology, and expanding access to those options for people who want to delay childbearing or may need help conceiving. But IVF and egg freezing are never going to be the right tools for everyone, and people deserve the support to have children as they study and enter the workforce, too. Biology isn’t destiny, but we shouldn’t ignore it.

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I never gestured to anything further than the atomic family, Id appreciate if you dont project that onto me, it needlessly muddies the conversation if you evoke an idea neither of us are talking about. But I dont think you answered the second half of my post, why do you think people arnt having kids or marrying?
I think they have the expectation of basic economic stability and non-precarity. Let me sketch that out.

The first thing you need is stable housing. This means either long term leases (in the UK leases are for six months at a time) or ownership-via-mortgage. This is basic shit: moving house every twenty odd weeks, with accompanying school moves, completely wrecks any possibility of your kids having a joined-up, let alone stable, education, and completely fucks them for having friends and social outlets in their community. Likewise the parents. You are strangers wherever you go.

The landlord class does not want longer term or more secure leases in the UK or in the US as far as I know.

Mortgages as Otterly keeps pointing out are now underwritten on the basis of two incomes per household. Over and above that, the banks want to see 10 to 15 percent of the home value as a downpayment.

The median salary in the UK is 37 grand a year. The average house price in the UK is 342 grand.

You can't afford to live somewhere stable enough to bring up a kid unless and until the two of you are jointly earning enough to put down an entire year's gross salary cash on the table.

Most people give the fuck up at that point. By the time you can afford a house, you'll be too old to have a family sized number of kids. If you are even in the age to be having any kids at all. If you ever even manage, even staying childless, to afford a house.

It's not about politics. It's not about ideology. It's not about religion or whatever the hell the retarded 'commentary' industry thinks is to blame this week. It's about money.

The people who made the decisions that the wages of Average Joe and Average Judy should be held down so fucking low that Joe and Judy can't afford a modest family home with a modest two kids and a modest lifestyle weren't the peers of Joe and Judy. They weren't an imaginary class bloc of Joes or Judys. They were the people who already owned everything, and whose feet on the accelerator of Economic Growth And Prosperity have run the fuck over the modest aspirations of modest people. Meanwhile in the same timeframe the wealth gap between the top 1% and every other cunt has exploded. All the Economic Growth And Prosperity that the smallfolk slaved for is in the hands of the elite. It was never your Economic Growth And Prosperity you were working for. It was theirs. They have it. You don't have a pot to piss in. That was not accidental. That is by design.

It's easy for Joe to blame Judy about tfw no gf and muh birthrate. Judy's right here to blame. Hell, it's easy for Judy to blame Joe, too. But the reason there is a massive fucking international multimedia industry encouraging Joe and Judy to blame each other and fight about it as much as fucking possible is to distract Joe and Judy from noticing who has literal billions in personal wealth and as many goddamn kids as they want.

After all, if Joe and Judy have no kids, what the fuck is keeping them from working even more hours? Nothing! Glory to the Omnissiah, now get in the fucking soulforge. The modern economic paradigm eats people. It consumes the populations of the countries it controls.

"Everything is the fault of wahmen" is a fucking psyop. It's distraction tactics 101. If Joe blames Judy and all Judys everywhere for the fact he is tfw no gf, that soaks up all the energy and anger he might otherwise profitably direct at Lord Smalldick Bentduck and his ever increasing personal trusts.

By the time the penny drops this is a psyop, though, there will be not enough Joes and Judys left to worry about too much, though. But it's okay. The machine will run on the lifeblood of Shireen and Ahmed just as well as it did on Joe and Judy's.
 
It's not about politics. It's not about ideology. It's not about religion or whatever the hell the retarded 'commentary' industry thinks is to blame this week. It's about money.

The people who made the decisions that the wages of Average Joe and Average Judy should be held down so fucking low that Joe and Judy can't afford a modest family home with a modest two kids and a modest lifestyle weren't the peers of Joe and Judy.
Just so Im clear, youre saying the reason that the reason marriage and having children is dropping is due to an economic recession in every major country on the planet correct? what do you think of countries that subsidies housing? why would countries where housing vs their income is less affordable than the west have children and get married at higher rates?


I wont argue that economics are not a component of this, any sane person can see this is a multifaceted issue, but to claim one single item is the issue and everything would be fine otherwise is as absurd as someone claiming it has nothing to do with it. Id be curious to know why you think places that have more expensive housing have more marriage and children, excluding places like the middle east. Id be interested in your take on why places like argentina, ecuador, peru, or venezuela have a non-inverted population pyramid, but suffer far worse in terms of housing vs income and lose out on CPI by a mile.
 
Just so Im clear, youre saying the reason that the reason marriage and having children is dropping is due to an economic recession in every major country on the planet correct? what do you think of countries that subsidies housing? why would countries where housing vs their income is less affordable than the west have children and get married at higher rates?


I wont argue that economics are not a component of this, any sane person can see this is a multifaceted issue, but to claim one single item is the issue and everything would be fine otherwise is as absurd as someone claiming it has nothing to do with it. Id be curious to know why you think places that have more expensive housing have more marriage and children, excluding places like the middle east. Id be interested in your take on why places like argentina, ecuador, peru, or venezuela have a non-inverted population pyramid, but suffer far worse in terms of housing vs income and lose out on CPI by a mile.
Birth rates are lowering all around the world, including in Latin America, the Islamic world and Africa.

Money is a factor because no one wants to live in a one room hovel with 5 children. You can claim it's all because of girlboss feminism all you want but plenty of men would be reluctant to live like that as well. My ancestors didn't live that way, so why should I? I'm not a third worlder, I'm an American. Having standards above that of Zimbabwe's is not wrong.

Money is security. Your partner can die or abandon you no matter how many kids you have or what your gender is. It's much better to have your own career lined up as a way to stay out of the poorhouse.

The only way the single income + tradwife model works these days is if you are a part of some extreme religious community with extended family ties that will help you, or if you are already wealthy to begin with and can fund that kind of lifestyle. The nuclear family only really works with two incomes these days.

Getting rid of women working would be unpleasant for men as well. It will mean 90% of all waking time spent working to support children, a wife and even female relatives like sisters and mothers. Say goodbye to having a hobby like videogames if you want all that tradwife shit.
 
You can claim it's all because of girlboss feminism all you want but plenty of men would be reluctant to live like that as well.
this is just absurd, not only did I NOT say this, but I even CONCEEDED that the economy is a component of this issue in the post youre quoting. recall that what we're originally talking about, the meaning of this thread, is an article about women waiting too long to have children; there two solutions to this (three if youre crazy), you can
- 1: encourage people to have children early in life over a career, particularly women (I know this is bad but unfortunately we cant encourage men to have kids because of reasons).
- 2: extend how long women can meaningfully have children for so when theyre in their late 30s or whenever theyre economically stable enough to support having a kid and house and whatever other stuff is needed, which is probably the one that'd be best but I just dont see it happening any time soon.
- 3: Remove women from the equation and just have artificial birth for anyone willing and able to pay for it (crazy)

you can choose which one you want to go for; but this is just the practical reality of what this thread is originally about, and what Im originally talking about. I dont care about whatever mannosphere shit youve decided to smear on me, but Id appreciate if you talk about what Ive said rather than fight some ghost in your mind while talking to me.
 
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Pre-civilization. Women were war brides and rape slaves who were the prizes of whichever men survived the constant tribal conflict
Already starts wrong, women aided in gathering food to sustain the tribe (By necessity since in many cases 40% to 80% the food was not adquired game.) It was not the equal utopia anprim writers claim but you are just idealizing, albeit in a different direction.
“…but I’m not going to give specific examples
Lmao you are not too lazy to google how hunter gatherer societies work, right? A fucking 30 seconds google or brave research will tell you this.
 
Just so Im clear, youre saying the reason that the reason marriage and having children is dropping is due to an economic recession in every major country on the planet correct? what do you think of countries that subsidies housing? why would countries where housing vs their income is less affordable than the west have children and get married at higher rates?


I wont argue that economics are not a component of this, any sane person can see this is a multifaceted issue, but to claim one single item is the issue and everything would be fine otherwise is as absurd as someone claiming it has nothing to do with it. Id be curious to know why you think places that have more expensive housing have more marriage and children, excluding places like the middle east. Id be interested in your take on why places like argentina, ecuador, peru, or venezuela have a non-inverted population pyramid, but suffer far worse in terms of housing vs income and lose out on CPI by a mile.
I would like us to consider what the expectation of average Jose and Juanita as regards the quality, safety, stability, and level of occupation of their housing might be as compared to Joe and Judy.

Joe and Judy expect, not unreasonably given prevailing social mores and historical precedent in their home nations, to live one nuclear family to a dwelling. They expect separate living, sleeping, cooking, and shitting areas. For the poorest in the UK, this is a comparatively recent postwar step: my own parent was born in a 'singl-end' of this type https://flashbak.com/powerful-photos-of-glasgow-slums-1969-72-54283/

If I were to ask you and your peers if you were willing to live in a single roomed dwelling, with at least one set of parents, probably a grandparent or two, younger brothers and sisters... you'd tell me to fuck off, and that the two college degrees you and your spouse had should at least get you a separate indoor toilet.

I would unreservedly agree. (My other parent was raised in a dwelling with an outside toilet. Let's keep that in the past.) And that's why not being able to secure that basic standard of housing is a dealbreaker for white folks in white nations, and less so for the global poor, because they already live in shitty conditions. They do not have the same expectations around the 'nuclear family' that we do, and certainly not around the nuclear family as a self-contained, independent, economic unit of one or two parents as wage earners.

Which of course raises the point that if white folks were willing to accept a serious and effectively permanent fall in their domestic living conditions, would that make it more economically practical and pragmatically possible to have babies. I tend to think that would be true. I don't think you will persuade enough white folks to live like shanty dwellers to meaningfully move that birthrate, though. I adore my parents in law. I do not live with them.

I also want to point upthread to the post pointing out that in non-nuclear family units, and also as a family unit descends further into poverty, the importance of children as an economic unit increases. Look at, say, Liberia, where a major source of income is picking valuables out of giant garbage dumps. Small kids can do this work. They do do this work every day. A child who can earn something as unskilled labour in an impoverished setting offsets some of their cost to raise, which is already lower because fucking grinding poverty.

There are always terrifying figures on the go about how much it costs to raise the average kid in [white country of choice]. Without quibbling, we can agree the answer is easily in six figures, from birth to 18. Kids in white countries cost a shitload, and they earn nothing. We cannot take them to work with us midge-raking in the rubbish tip. All of mine are under ten, and the patients will be extremely unhappy if I send them into work tomorrow and announce they are the dentists now. I love my children. All I do is for them and their advancement. Nigel and I are firehosing money at them, and if we were worse off, the percentage of money we are firehosing at them would be even higher. I am sure you can do back-of-the-envelope calculations for yourself and come to much the same conclusion.

You just can't make the sums add up, if you are a normal working couple, according to white people norms. To be more accurate, enough normal couples can't make the sums add up enough for them to be prepared to give it a go.

You don't have to deter that many people for there to be a big ol' fall in the number of bouncing babies.
 
What if one person could support a family on their income alone?
Completely impossible. Maybe if we used AI to make everyone 50x more productive Mr. Shekelbergstien would be willing to give us a cut and only take 49x but otherwise there's just no way.
 
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Lmao you are not too lazy to google how hunter gatherer societies work, right? A fucking 30 seconds google or brave research will tell you this.
“…I’m not going to prove my point, you should do it for me.”

I asked for examples because we’ve seen anthropology and archaeology infected by progressive idiocy of late, with claims being made that women were out there on hunts alongside the men, and even in some cases that they were better than men at doing it, and that their preferred targets were large game (not that their lower strength is conducive to carrying large amounts of meat back to camp, post-processing, but fuck logic).

Note that most of these claims are based on ‘hunting tools’ found in one specific grave in the Andes, and as such, it is interpreter bias that these were functional tools and not ‘afterlife trade goods’, as well as the claims that the practice was widespread globally.

So the reason I was asking for specific examples is because I wanted to know whether you had any scientifically valid cases to present, or were just blowing smoke out your ass. Guess I got my answer.
 
they are the dentists now.
fuck I hate dentists :story: (My teeth arnt fucked)

I appreciate the story, what do you think we should do to resolve the population implosion? I remember being young, I was with a girl, and we were poor, I remember thinking 2000$ was alot of money, and we'd budget out nonsense month to month, but we were happy, and probably would have had children. I think on my own mom and dad, who would (especially now that they want grand children), reflect on how it was never convenient to have kids, and that things would work out, they had many, and it did work out. I understand the economy is difficult, I understand children are on average extremely expensive, but I dont know if Im willing to just let the spreadsheet show me the figures and encourage me to slit my own throat to try to make the balance come together. I think we should advocate people, particularly as youre saying, white people in white countries, to have children, otherwise this an argument about where we're choosing to bury ourselves, but I recall having this conversation with you some time ago.
 
And being fucked and impregnated whether they liked it or not while having little to no say in the matters concerning the future of the tribe.
Moving the goalposts, those societies were decentralized, it was the collective that decided it
“…I’m not going to prove my point, you should do it for me.”

I asked for examples because we’ve seen anthropology and archaeology infected by progressive idiocy of late, with claims being made that women were out there on hunts alongside the men, and even in some cases that they were better than men at doing it, and that their preferred targets were large game (not that their lower strength is conducive to carrying large amounts of meat back to camp, post-processing, but fuck logic).

Note that most of these claims are based on ‘hunting tools’ found in one specific grave in the Andes, and as such, it is interpreter bias that these were functional tools and not ‘afterlife trade goods’, as well as the claims that the practice was widespread globally.

So the reason I was asking for specific examples is because I wanted to know whether you had any scientifically valid cases to present, or were just blowing smoke out your ass. Guess I got my answer.
Quoting myself:
It was not the equal utopia anprim writers claim
I never claimed women hunted a lot or some stupid shit like modern academia does, I talked about the importance of gathering, that they did partake in.
Some archeological digs did have a few of them hunting, but it was minimal in the big picture, yet specific people blow it out of proportion.
 
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I keep trying to point this out to people. If you have such a massive outgroup preference that your actively hurting your own, and if you’re emasculating the young men, then the outcome will be that a group with high in group preference who didn’t emasculate their young men will come in and take over. Right now those groups all treat women like cattle and they aren’t going to be up for changing that
I'd argue the most feminist/pro-woman position you can hold is racism. In the Western world, you're hard pressed to find a group of men who hold women in as high esteem as white men. Best to keep the jeets, blacks, arabs, and hispanics out because of their historically poor treatment of women. There's lots of talk about women feeling unsafe at night but very little discussion of what they're afraid of. I don't think it's the nerdy asian or the blue collar white man. When you get the list of countries that are unsafe for an unescorted women to travel to, it's never Japan or Norway that top the list. Strange how the powers that be are so feminist yet insist on more Pakis in the UK, Somalians in the US, or jeets in Canada. Almost as if the upper class view working class women as nothing more than meat puppets to labor and spawn more meat puppets.

Aside, get rid of infinite jeets and the like and you'd have lower cost of living, safer neighborhoods, better schools, eliminate competition with foreign educated classes, and with the riff raff gone more funds available to support the cultural jobs that women disproportionately pursue. Might actually make life less stressful and get the birth rate up. Could even save the NHS to remove the paki tard babies and other welfare sponges.
 
fuck I hate dentists :story: (My teeth arnt fucked)

I appreciate the story, what do you think we should do to resolve the population implosion? I remember being young, I was with a girl, and we were poor, I remember thinking 2000$ was alot of money, and we'd budget out nonsense month to month, but we were happy, and probably would have had children. I think on my own mom and dad, who would (especially now that they want grand children), reflect on how it was never convenient to have kids, and that things would work out, they had many, and it did work out. I understand the economy is difficult, I understand children are on average extremely expensive, but I dont know if Im willing to just let the spreadsheet show me the figures and encourage me to slit my own throat to try to make the balance come together. I think we should advocate people, particularly as youre saying, white people in white countries, to have children, otherwise this an argument about where we're choosing to bury ourselves, but I recall having this conversation with you some time ago.
So I think you've put your finger on something really important here. I'm an earlier millennial. The normal expectation of my peer group when we were late teens/early twenties was that even those of us who were a bit skint and skating by immediately post-uni would come good, fall into money and a decent job, get somewhere to live, things would be alright.

Like your parents, "let's do it, it will work out". We always knew we intended to have a family, although we did have a powerful disagreement over how long we should wait to do it. We waited a number of years longer than I would have liked because nigel wanted to be at a specific career point, and I... didn't really see the pressing need for that. Two yeses one no, we waited, kids appeared anyway fortunately, but I do think I would have had an easier time in terms of my personal health and recovery if I'd been, well, five to ten years younger. I personally advocate in terms of physical health and also family spacing and all that shit to go earlier than later.

But I think the thing is - the zoomers don't believe that they can just batter ahead and everything be alright. They think they are fucked in an economic, social, aspirational way. To be fair all the data we have and show to them suggests they will have a worse standard of living than the Gen X'ers and the millennials. Plus honestly social media and smartphones has done a number on their mental health and worldview.

If you're already skint and unable to find somewhere to live independently from your parents, you can't exactly just batter on and get pregnant and everything be fine. Parents of the late boomer to early Gen X type are not down for their kids to raise THEIR kids in their home. They still have sky high expectations around retirement - they will be the only generation really to live a long time in comfort after they stop working. The retirement age already went well back for the rest of us and don't even start me on the pensions Ponzi scheme.

In short: if I personally believed everything was terrible and only going to get worse, I'd think long and hard before bringing a dependent into my situation to care for and provide for. I think that is part of what's going on, too.
 
get rid of infinite jeets and the like
Weird how brown immigrants are supposedly engines of economic growth, yet nations like Germany, the UK and Canada have been cramming them in but had stagnant productivity and growth for 10+ years while inflation, housing and cost of living have ballooned.
 
Not moving any goal posts. Allowing women to go outside and pick berries does not equate to equal rights for women.
I did not say "equal rights for women" are you retarded? I said "not the amprim utopia" earlier, you can't read or understand nuance? My point is that it was more than the "get fucked and impregnated" you imply, and it varied by society. Some of them were close (but not quite) to egalitarian in certain aspects.
 
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The fertility rate drops are just a result of a luxurious life style.

It's a mouse utopia experiment thing ("The Universe 25"):
"Having reached a level of high population density, the mice began exhibiting a variety of abnormal, often destructive, behaviours including refusal to engage in courtship, and females abandoning their young. By the 600th day, the population was on its way to extinction. Though physically able to reproduce, the mice had lost the social skills required to mate."

Good summer-up video:


When you live in a society that has everything you need, your bar grows higher and higher to ridiculous standards. And things that would've brought you joy before are starting to seem worthless. And it's exactly how live is in the first world countries. "Good times bring weak men..." and such.

So it's not the "evel whamin" or "evel superjews from outer space that poison the wells", it's just a social climate that makes people want to reach and value things less and less, for they don't know how valuable said things actually are, for they never lived without them.

TL;DR - We need to bring cowboys and cheap saloon hookers back. Who's with me, boys?

And no fancy medicine. If you have a flu and still a virgin - your generation is practically doomed. That'll make them fuck like rabbits.
 
The landlord class does not want longer term or more secure leases in the UK or in the US as far as I know.
Everything you said was well-stated, thank you. Sex (and sexual) race, and other cultural issues are always a distraction from class issues meant to polarize people and split any attempt at change.

It's incredible the leasing system is that bad in the UK...six months isn't even enough time to get settled in, let alone change your lease terms. When I rented my apartment you'd get a substantial discount the longer term you signed up for, up to 14 months.
 
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