MRA debate

[observer]

Not sure if this belongs here or in Lolcows since MRAs are not really HAHA funny, just kind of sad funny but I thought it would be fun to debate the merits of the group.

One thing that even feminists forget is that while society privileges men, it does so with the massive condition that the man himself must conform to masculinity and many of MRAs social problems are a result of the man in question being seen as emasculated (ironically one of the reasons MRAs are viewed so poorly is because claiming that your oppressed by women is not exactly masculine)

so while the group does raise some legitimate grievances, their insistence to blame it solely on feminists, rather than the fact that society is just sometimes unfair to men, is where they seem to fall short.


some examples of MRA issues
Men are given little visitation time with their child after a divorce: More to do with traditional gender roles taken to the extreme then a feminist conspiracy. As the fathers role is the provider and and as a result the only thing the child needs from him is a source of income (according to the lawmakers). Noticed this is slowly correcting itself.

False rape allegations: While this does happen, false accusations are no higher than any other crime and one thing I noticed is that they don't seem to notice that rape with male victims is massively under reported (especially when the perpetrator is a women)

Alimony cases: this is an interesting one, It is a legitimate grievance but it is more to do with governments not wanting all the recently divorced women with little to no work prospects to start claiming welfare and as a result, crippling the economy. so it is the husband's role to provide support for the wife after the marriage has ended. While feminists are responsible for no fault divorce, it does allow men to also leave a failed marriage so nobody is being singled out.

Women getting softer sentences for sex and violence based offences: Legitimate grievance, for some reason society tends to believe that women can only commit violent acts as a result of self defence and women sexually acting is almost impossible, for some reason society tends to believe that if a group is persecuted that they are morally purer then the people who persecute them. it is men who make and enforce these laws not feminists

In conclusion I believe that while MRAs do have legitimate grievances they incorrectly target feminists as the source of their problems. I genuinely believe that there needs to be a mens group but for that reason the current ones will have extreme trouble accomplishing their goal.

Thats my opinion, feel free to debate it

 

[BT 075]

They have some valid points, but a really shitty way of bringing them. And much like many tumblr feminists, they are prone to victimizing themselves and have a very strong us versus them mentality that's counterproductive to what they are trying to achieve (or SAY they want to achieve).

There's nothing wrong with wanting laws to be fair to both genders, but that does not mean you have to be such an asshole about it and put the other gender in a very negative light just to make yourself look more justified. And a major issue with the MRA folks is that the vast majority aren't bitter fathers who got screwed over in court, or falsely accused of rape; most MRA's are fat single fedora-type young dudes. Like if there was an MRA guy who really got it bad, I may understand his issues a little more. But so many of these Men's Rights dudes don't know how the world works, don't really have a life and are pretty much socially handicapped. So with what authority do they speak of these things?

They're not lolcows anymore then feminists are lolcows. But like feminists, they have a lot of very vocal assholes in their midst who drown out any sense they might have otherwise made.

 

[CatParty]

it's all case by case basis. there is absolutely no preference either way.

 

[SpessCaptain]

I believe that people should have the same rights, privileges and punishments - regardless of gender with practicality.

it's all case by case basis. there is absolutely no preference either way.

Basically this, it depends on the situation more than anything.

 

[exball]

Homer plz

 

[Pickle Inspector]

MRA's are similar to feminists in that the moderate ones do have some good points about equality but on the internet the the most vocal ones tend to be the extremists who spend too much time arguing on social media and aren't likely to do anything aside from slacktivism.

Ideally they'd both join to fight for equality since most everyone is for things like equal wages and blind justice but I don't think that will happen any time soon.

 

[Ahffline]

The fundamental problem with both gender-based activist positions is the tendency to blame the other gender for the obstacles they face. Radical feminist blame The Patriarchy, while radical MRAs will claim that we live in a gynocracy where women have systematically worked to destroy the masculine sense of identity and position in society.

Both positions are complete, utter, and total horseshit. Women and men in the 'First World' face unique sets of challenges. Men are expected to live up to a masculine ideal. Women are pressured by society to marry and have kids, thereby living up to the ideal of motherhood as the true expression of femininity. All the while, both men and women face basic inequalities in society. Women aren't paid the same wages as men for doing the same job with the same qualifications. Men are assumed to be the more violent partner in the vast majority of domestic abuse situations.

We won't overcome these issues until we - as men and women - stop bickering and blaming each other, recognize the challenges unique to our genders, and strive to solve the problems we face. That's an unrealistic goal, to be sure, but I think it's a worthy one to strive for nonetheless.

 

[Boundman]

Speaking quite generally, MRA's and Feminists are both groups of people of predominantly one gender who like to blame the other for injustices and have spent so long in the echo chamber they end up pushing for ridiculous things.

Both sides make some good points and it's down to you to discern for yourself between the good and the bad. I agree with a lot of both of what I've heard from MRA's and Feminists I've met in my life, but would never call myself either because of the fact I would indirectly support a large amount of people I disagree with.

The only thing to do with radicals on either side is to laugh at them, which is where we at the Farms come in.

 

[dabluearmedbandit]

Their biggest problem is, as others have already stated, they love to play the blame game. I dated a crazy girl in high school. When we broke up, she accused me of rape. It was obviously bullshit, and nothing ever came of it other than hurting my high school reputation. What separates myself and most people from MRA's in this situation is this: I didn't blame every single woman on the planet. I blamed the one woman who did it to me. There's nothing wrong, in my opinion, in considering a female a bitch. There are indeed bitches in the world, just as there are plenty of dickhead bros.

The problem MRA's have is that they generalize. "This one individual who wronged me can't just be shitty, every single person of the same gender must be that shitty too." It's their petty, childlike logic that makes them so repellent to most in society, which in turn confirms their opinion that they are oppressed.

TL;DR- It's a self fulfilling prophecy, but with way more autism.

 

[Ariel]

I think you will find that real feminists (i mean the kind who don't spend their time posting about feminism on twitter and tumblr) agree with all of the points raised.

 

[Yawning Bulbasaur]

Even though I generally have more of a problem with modern third-wave feminism than MRAs, I still think both groups have diminished any credibility they may have had with their self-serving sexist moronic bullshit, and essentially are two sides of the same coin:
-Both claim to want "gender equality" and sometimes pretend to care about the opposite sex's problems but do nothing about them
-Both blame all of their problems on the opposite sex/imaginary bogeyman (e.g. The Straight White Male Patriarchy/The Jewish Gynocracy)
-Both blame their lack of a partner on "unrealistic" standards of beauty/masculinity instead of their own personal choices (diet/hygeine/social skills/personality/etc.)
-Both consist mostly of spoilt lazy adult children with no real accomplishments or ambitions

 

[Marvin]

One thing that even feminists forget is that while society privileges men, it does so with the massive condition that the man himself must conform to masculinity and many of MRAs social problems are a result of the man in question being seen as emasculated (ironically one of the reasons MRAs are viewed so poorly is because claiming that your oppressed by women is not exactly masculine)

I think this is a false equivalency. When men suffer problems because of sexism, it's almost entirely an internal, emotional struggle, and it rarely manifests itself in concrete problems. When women suffer problems because of sexism, it frequently has real-world implications. Like the wage gap, for example. Or how the US only passed women's suffrage in 1920. Or mandatory ultrasounds for women seeking abortions. (That shit's particularly obnoxious.)

To me, MRAs who complain that sexism hurts men too, because they have to meet unfair masculine standards, is comparable to rich people complaining that poor people are mean to them because just they're rich. While yes, perhaps that's slightly unfair, but sorry, it's not even remotely close to being an important concern for me.

some examples of MRA issues
Men are given little visitation time with their child after a divorce: More to do with traditional gender roles taken to the extreme then a feminist conspiracy. As the fathers role is the provider and and as a result the only thing the child needs from him is a source of income (according to the lawmakers). Noticed this is slowly correcting itself.

False rape allegations: While this does happen, false accusations are no higher than any other crime and one thing I noticed is that they don't seem to notice that rape with male victims is massively under reported (especially when the perpetrator is a women)

Alimony cases: this is an interesting one, It is a legitimate grievance but it is more to do with governments not wanting all the recently divorced women with little to no work prospects to start claiming welfare and as a result, crippling the economy. so it is the husband's role to provide support for the wife after the marriage has ended. While feminists are responsible for no fault divorce, it does allow men to also leave a failed marriage so nobody is being singled out.

Women getting softer sentences for sex and violence based offences: Legitimate grievance, for some reason society tends to believe that women can only commit violent acts as a result of self defence and women sexually acting is almost impossible, for some reason society tends to believe that if a group is persecuted that they are morally purer then the people who persecute them. it is men who make and enforce these laws not feminists

These are all legitimate issues and they need to be addressed. The question to me is whether or not forming a group for men's rights to address these issues would be a net win for the people involved.

I suspect that including "MRA" or some variation thereof in your name will only attract crazies for the foreseeable future. Perhaps father's rights might be more effective? It'd be more sympathetic and you could probably round up a lot of fathers who've been dicked over by the system.

 

[Saul Goodman]

I suspect that including "MRA" or some variation thereof in your name will only attract crazies for the foreseeable future. Perhaps father's rights might be more effective? It'd be more sympathetic and you could probably round up a lot of fathers who've been dicked over by the system.

This. And even a lot of feminists. Most are actually quite sane (although there is, obviously, a vocal minority who aren't). But by framing the conversation as "men's rights," you might as well be saying: "Hello, reasonable women who might find common cause with me, why don't you go fuck off."

 

[Jaimas]

Not sure if this belongs here or in Lolcows since MRAs are not really HAHA funny, just kind of sad funny but I thought it would be fun to debate the merits of the group.

One thing that even feminists forget is that while society privileges men, it does so with the massive condition that the man himself must conform to masculinity and many of MRAs social problems are a result of the man in question being seen as emasculated (ironically one of the reasons MRAs are viewed so poorly is because claiming that your oppressed by women is not exactly masculine)

so while the group does raise some legitimate grievances, their insistence to blame it solely on feminists, rather than the fact that society is just sometimes unfair to men, is where they seem to fall short.


some examples of MRA issues
Men are given little visitation time with their child after a divorce: More to do with traditional gender roles taken to the extreme then a feminist conspiracy. As the fathers role is the provider and and as a result the only thing the child needs from him is a source of income (according to the lawmakers). Noticed this is slowly correcting itself.

False rape allegations: While this does happen, false accusations are no higher than any other crime and one thing I noticed is that they don't seem to notice that rape with male victims is massively under reported (especially when the perpetrator is a women)

Alimony cases: this is an interesting one, It is a legitimate grievance but it is more to do with governments not wanting all the recently divorced women with little to no work prospects to start claiming welfare and as a result, crippling the economy. so it is the husband's role to provide support for the wife after the marriage has ended. While feminists are responsible for no fault divorce, it does allow men to also leave a failed marriage so nobody is being singled out.

Women getting softer sentences for sex and violence based offences: Legitimate grievance, for some reason society tends to believe that women can only commit violent acts as a result of self defence and women sexually acting is almost impossible, for some reason society tends to believe that if a group is persecuted that they are morally purer then the people who persecute them. it is men who make and enforce these laws not feminists

In conclusion I believe that while MRAs do have legitimate grievances they incorrectly target feminists as the source of their problems. I genuinely believe that there needs to be a mens group but for that reason the current ones will have extreme trouble accomplishing their goal.

Thats my opinion, feel free to debate it

To add my own three cents:

Men are more abused and raped than women in the USA, but no attention is given to this.
Self-explanatory. That first statistic comes from the Center of Disease Control, BTW, and the second one is going by national statistics. In spite of these staggering statistics, we continue to see examples every day of society as a whole failing people who, by all accounts, are victims. Law Enforcement is notoriously unwilling to look into cases of male abuse or male rape, and, here in NY, officials have been known to mock said victims.

Men have higher difficulties acquiring social services than women.
This is a fact. Whether it's welfare, housing assistance, or financial aid, Men have a harder time acquiring these services than women do, because these services are front-loaded towards helping women with possible children than they are men. As such, the requirements barrier is much easier for a woman to fulfill (at least here in NY) than it is a male. This may very well be more due to archaic social services architecture here on the Northeast Seaboard, but it's still a well-known issue.

Men Have a Noted Lack of Equitability in Divorce Settlements.
This was touched upon above, with child support and alimony both, but here in New York, it's way worse. I have a friend whose wife essentially kidnapped their son after clearing out his bank account and trying to flee the state, and he still has to pay her for support in spite of being the kid's primary caretaker, and she's still got visitation rights. His story is not unique. How much of this is, like Observer mentioned, due to antiquated laws and older mindsets is a matter of debate, but there's no argument that there aren't people exploiting this and running to the bank on it.

I don't think the MRAs, in and of themselves, are bad people. The problem is, just like the SJWs, they've been co-opted by ambitious and zealous fucksticks who have an agenda to push and who intend to exploit their sacrifices and hard work, fanning any resentment they have to cynically extort it for their own ends. There's Marijan-esque assholes, for-realz misogynists, and dickheads just looking to make a buck who're just as cold, callous, and manipulative as their counterparts on the other side of the pond.

 

[Gerion]

MRAs hate hearing this, but a lot of the stuff you're talking about, divorce/alimony issues, rape of male victims, toxic masculinity, etc. are issues that continue to be addressed by feminist activists. The feminists, so far, seem to be doing a much better job than the MRAs, which isn't to say that feminism has saved the day and that they aren't problems anymore, but that there's actual activism involved, rather than aggressive internet vulgarity.

I get it, you know, I really do. When you're growing up as a guy, society tells you that you're due all these things, the high-powered job, the exciting sex life, the loving relationship, the easy, middle-class existence. And the people in your life expect you to go and get all these things when you come of age, and of course you don't because you've not been taught how to get them, just that you deserve them and that you should already have the how bit figured out. I've seen plenty of my friends go into ugly, lolcowish tailspins for a year or two over exactly that cognitive dissonance - in my personal group of friends, it tended to hit about six months after finishing an undergrad degree. Hell, I spent a few years celibate, living out every cliche imaginable about hopelessly single clueless young men. I know the territory that these guys inhabit well.

The problem comes in when these guys try to figure out what's going wrong in their lives and, rather than focusing on self-improvement, adopt a victim mentality and look for a villain to blame. The disenfranchisement that they feel feels a lot like oppression, so they double down on the idea that they're oppressed. Of course, most of these guys wouldn't know a single thing about being oppressed, so they've got no point of reference and a whole internet echo chamber there to back them up, and to build on the ideas generated by their faulty reasoning. They're actually not dissimilar to teenage tumblr SJWs in that way, they're just arguing a different position.

 

[wheat pasta]

lots of good facts about the MRM and why it's not just angry impotent men

Thank you.
Said it better than I could have.

 

[observer]

I think this is a false equivalency. When men suffer problems because of sexism, it's almost entirely an internal, emotional struggle, and it rarely manifests itself in concrete problems. When women suffer problems because of sexism, it frequently has real-world implications. Like the wage gap, for example. Or how the US only passed women's suffrage in 1920. Or mandatory ultrasounds for women seeking abortions. (That shit's particularly obnoxious.)

To me, MRAs who complain that sexism hurts men too, because they have to meet unfair masculine standards, is comparable to rich people complaining that poor people are mean to them because just they're rich. While yes, perhaps that's slightly unfair, but sorry, it's not even remotely close to being an important concern for me.

True, much of what MRAs call misandry are simply men being held to higher standards then women and being held to standards is generally a good thing because if you expect nothing from someone they might surprise you but the end result is most likely something resembling Chris Chan.

The only thing close to misandry is when men express themselves in a feminine manner or take up feminine interests they are shunned by society (it is actually misogyny but whatever). just as an example, big part of Chris Chan trolling was calling him gay because he was so feminine but ironically his blindness to gender would actually be considered progressive in many feminist circles (if you ignore his sexism and homophobia). also why bronies where popular among Feminists/sjws because they were seen as being accepting of something feminine (until they started acting out)

These are all legitimate issues and they need to be addressed. The question to me is whether or not forming a group for men's rights to address these issues would be a net win for the people involved.

I suspect that including "MRA" or some variation thereof in your name will only attract crazies for the foreseeable future. Perhaps father's rights might be more effective? It'd be more sympathetic and you could probably round up a lot of fathers who've been dicked over by the system.

The feminists I have spoken to do seem to believe that a mens group would help both men and women however they want one that goes under feminist theory (and not one that blames feminists for everything). They also don't seem to trust men because of the privilege that society gives them.

 

[observer]

To add my own three cents:

Men are more abused and raped than women in the USA, but no attention is given to this.
Self-explanatory. That first statistic comes from the Center of Disease Control, BTW, and the second one is going by national statistics. In spite of these staggering statistics, we continue to see examples every day of society as a whole failing people who, by all accounts, are victims. Law Enforcement is notoriously unwilling to look into cases of male abuse or male rape, and, here in NY, officials have been known to mock said victims.

Men have higher difficulties acquiring social services than women.
This is a fact. Whether it's welfare, housing assistance, or financial aid, Men have a harder time acquiring these services than women do, because these services are front-loaded towards helping women with possible children than they are men. As such, the requirements barrier is much easier for a woman to fulfill (at least here in NY) than it is a male. This may very well be more due to archaic social services architecture here on the Northeast Seaboard, but it's still a well-known issue.

Society does show little sympathy for men who show weakness or needing help, especially if they are are overpowered by a woman, although the enforcers of this are men despite MRAs complaining that it is a feminist conspiracy. Interestingly enough feminists are actually responsible for changing the legal definition of rape to remove the gendered language from it and many academic feminists believe that being forced/coerced to penetrate someone is rape, they have also done a study on how often it occurs (if it was in the legal definition the amount of male rape victims would be almost on par with female 48%). This fact just has not reached their peanut gallery yet.

Men Have a Noted Lack of Equitability in Divorce Settlements.

This was touched upon above, with child support and alimony both, but here in New York, it's way worse. I have a friend whose wife essentially kidnapped their son after clearing out his bank account and trying to flee the state, and he still has to pay her for support in spite of being the kid's primary caretaker, and she's still got visitation rights. His story is not unique. How much of this is, like Observer mentioned, due to antiquated laws and older mindsets is a matter of debate, but there's no argument that there aren't people exploiting this and running to the bank on it.

True, you create a loophole and eventually someone will take advantage of it but still it is slowly fixing itself, at least in my country. Also in Sweden (a sortof feminist county) there is no alimony because usually both parents are working and don't need monetary support after the divorce

 

[100 Whole Bepis]

I tend to have a little more sympathy for the MRA than most because I think many of the core ideas are good. There is a discrepancy in the legal system between men and women, and much of it is terribly unfair. I know this because even though I'm female I've had many aspects of my life affected by the leniency the divorce/abuse/criminal system gives to women.

I personally don't believe that feminists are doing much to change the double standards, however. They say they are, but time and time again I see no evidence of them taking any real action, which is why the double standard still exists (if anyone has some real, solid proof that they are, and not just "oh we totally care about this issue *does nothing*", please show me.). With this in mind, I can certainly see why MRAs exists. It's a bad situation. Male victims of abuse and children affected by female abusers usually find themselves with no options. Women can publicly admit that they commit sexual crimes and are not only treated lightly for it, but in some cases applauded for their "bravery" (see: Lena Dunham), and they almost always come out on top in divorce cases even if they're terribly inept parents. Issues that affect men are laughed off and they are expected to deal with it themselves, even when they have no method of doing so. To deny that there is a toxic double standard in the system is willful ignorance and I don't really care if it's feminists or MRAs that ultimately address it just as long as someone does.

That said, much like feminism MRA has attracted a lot of very nasty people. Bitter morons that want to use the movement to hurt others. Radicals of any group are toxic but sadly it's very difficult to weed them out and prevent them from becoming the face of the movement. So to me, MRAs are the other side of the same coin as feminists. Good motivations tarnished by bad people.

The only thing close to misandry is when men express themselves in a feminine manner or take up feminine interests they are shunned by society (it is actually misogyny but whatever).

I don't buy this. The double standards men face aren't going to be fixed by making them all about women. There's the idea that men are violent, naturally aggressive and ill-fit to be parents, which is why they get the short end of domestic cases. That has nothing to do with misogyny.

 

[MayMay]

I don't buy this. The double standards men face aren't going to be fixed by making them all about women. There's the idea that men are violent, naturally aggressive and ill-fit to be parents, which is why they get the short end of domestic cases. That has nothing to do with misogyny.

Sounds like a load of shit to me too.
I mean, who's the ones mainly pushing the "all men are rapists" narrative? Feminists. "Men can't be raped/abused, women don't have the power to?" Feminists. Duluth model that basically ensures a woman can belt her BF over the head with a bottle, call the police and have him arrested simply for being bigger than her? Same. Stonewalling guys from even talking about the alarming differences in suicide rates? You get the pattern.

And that shit hurts women too, I've known at least two women who've been raped and abused by other women and basically, said rapists got away with it scot-free because "women can't rape".

Expecting feminism as a movement to deal with any of those is just laughable. The same people that make pushes for the mass release of violent criminals simply because they're female? Yeah. The same who think men should be arrested for sitting with their legs apart? There's a good reason why man are now getting sick of their shit. Those like Sommers who actually aren't just selfish little shits can expect to get rejected by the majority of feminists by being for equality.

Ideally there shouldn't be any reason why the two would be incompatible as far as equality goes but it's become pretty obvious that one side sure as shit isn't interested in that as much as using their "victimhood" to push for more privileges and the other is riddled with assholes that'd rather claim everyone's a whore and think sex is something to strive for at all times when it's really another attitude of society that sorely needs addressing.

And the way both of them will throw the people they're supposedly for under the bus is a disgrace. One's claiming the exact harmful shit feminists spew (all men are rape-apes... except me of course) and the shit some feminists will say and do to women that aren't part of their little cult, especially wishing they get raped so they'll convert to feminism (yet whinging about the exact same thing they're wishing: "corrective rape") just argh.

Humans just suck, okay?

TL;DR: Feminism is not the catch-all answer to the problems they deliberately caused and gladly enforce (we fight gender roles/lol virgin shrimpdick) in the first place