Melanie Herring / Purplekecleon / PK / PapayaKitty / GlitchedPuppet / Ash Hazel Woods / Floraverse - Abusive, manipulative SJW artist whose ex-husband fucked a dog and teenagers and whose current husband thinks he's trans because of a TF fetish, admitted to fucking two dogs and letting her cat eat her out

[CallieMarie]

When it comes to apologys, actions always mattered more then words.

A while back on Twitter, I saw a webcomic artist state that 'no webcomic artist should ever have a Discord server to interact with their fans. It's egotistical and can even lead to abusive situations.' The artist specifically referenced Glitchedpuppet and Marl.

Let me count the ways that this server is bad and will always lead to someone getting hurt.

First off, Glip always surrounds themselves with abusive or sexpesty people, outside of Marl. Mike, Twee, Latiass, Goopy and Omny come to mind off the top of my head. Sometimes, like in the cases of Twee, Mike and Lati, they even get positions of power in these communities. Of course these people will abuse the power Glip gives them in their comminities- Mike definitely did. Even if they're not given power, Glip will keep them around for a long time which allows them to continue hurting Glips vunreble audience.

Speaking of vunreble audience- yeah, vunreble people, whether they be children or people who have difficulties mentally and emotionally are Glips target audience. They're the people who are most attracted to the psuedo-deep bullshit of current day Flora, and the server makes a big deal out of self improvement, which is the sort of "help" these sorts of people are looking for. Guidance on how to fix themselves. Glip even offers fucking comissions about this backwards BDSM "self improvement" stuff. Its a selling point today of current day Flora.

It's simple math on why Glip naturally surrounding themselves with predatory people and vunreble people is fucking insane.

Oh, and in addition to this terrible combination, the fucking public scenes airs everyone's dirty laundry. Which an abusive person can and will use against their targets.

This is in addition to the regular power imbalance that occurs when your run your own fan server. I don't think Glip even realizes the power they hold over these people by virtue of the fact they're fans of Glips work. I remember one time in the server, Glip asked people if they felt like Glip was unapproachable (it was something like this, I don't remember what it was specifically) and everyone in the server and their mother came forward to say "ooooh no Glip, of course that's not true you're so open and kind".

I don't think Glip realized that, of course these people are going to positively reinforce and enable Glips behavior. They're fans of their work. They want Glip to like them.

This is also why surrounding themselves with fans will only serve to hinder Glip from changing themselves for the better. Besides Pengo, everyone around Glip is a fucking enabler.

Glips apology comes across as putting a bandaid on a breaking dam. Yeah, I'm glad it's there, it's kinda a step in the right direction. But the issues are still there. Vunreble people will get hurt again in Glips communites- it's not a matter of if but when. Glip, as a person, is not capable of running a safe online community period. (Let alone a safe community that airs everyone's drama under the guise of "self help").

Until Glip takes the steps needed to ensure that history won't repeat itself, by shutting their fucking servers and community they run down. Any apologys they give will ring hollow.

Edit:
Welcome to the farms Pengo. Just reiterating that I'm worried about what you're doing when it comes to your own well being for reasons everyone else covered already. Please just make sure to keep your own well being in mind when doing this.

 

[FrickleMyPickle]

Oh, and in addition to this terrible combination, the fucking public scenes airs everyone's dirty laundry. Which an abusive person can and will use against their targets.

Hell, Glip herself does this. Besides admitting she uses "scenes" for story fodder, the whole Spitefuck saga proves she's very willing to turn your dirty laundry into a comic -- a porn comic, no less -- about how awful you are and how all your friends in the server secretly hate you.

 

[Abra]

It's been said and done already but it simply speaks volumes that once KF voiced their concerns about the dom commissions, PK's immediate reaction was to be defensive and gather testimonials from commissioners. Yes, it's people's money and I suppose PK used discretion on selecting the ones she would do. But adding in the power imbalance that comes with Flora being her creation, it's fucking concerning she didn't stop to think that maybe it could be a little weird and alarming.

Edit because the post sent before I was finished, lol.

 

[sad cowboy cat]

Don't take this the wrong way, but I'm a little concerned at the way you keep referring to Glip and Eevee's behavior as "impulsive." Glip and Eevee's habit of going off on minors and critics -- and Eevee's consistent need to chime in when pedophilia is being discussed -- is consistent and has been going on for years. That's not impulsive, that's something else entirely.

It doesn't sound like you're helping them be better people, it sounds like you're -- unintentionally -- teaching them to be better at hiding it. Thankfully, it's not working.



I think the difference is that you're not accepting money from these people to specifically draw your fursona emotionally abusing them.

I mean I guess it has been 6 continuous years of this shit

and also how they jumped to punish someone who vented about twee being transphobic and predatory towards them even though they'd been bragging about raping people prior

and how they jumped to defend ommy when a person outed them as having sexually abused them as a minor only to oust them when they posted server logs to the farms

 

[Violent Ken Apologist]

Your relationship and dealing with them just sounds horrifically depressing overall, it's almost like 2020 being godawful wasn't enough for you and that making it worse was somehow necessary. Why put up with her?

 

[sad cowboy cat]

adding to this, the server considers anything that glip does to be correct, especially when backed by axi, opa and eevee. did you ever see the responses to the test by the rest of the server? what do you think they were like? do you think anyone thought that it was kinda fucked up or take my side at all? the rest of the server is outright encouraged to reinforce whatever lesson is being dealt with, even when such lesson is abusive and inappropriate, and that eventually funnels down into comic fodder where whichever party was on the receiving end is caricaturized as a villain the audience knows to root against, further reinforcing the control hierarchy.

(the express my hurt is probably a reference to when I told them that drawing toddler N rape was not cool and the whole server jumped on me for not letting glip express their pain even though I had been personally affected by the image, they apologized in the doc to me but I guess it mattered diddly dick after all if they're still gonna push this)

on the subject of the bdsm commissions, what unsettled me isn't that the customers are paying glip to make them art, it's that the art is being presented and effectively marketed towards the server as a former of therapeutic emotional expression while reinforcing glip's rule as an authority in the scenario, both by financially giving them money in order to facilitate the creation of the image itself but also because it's specifically glip dominating the customer under the guise of emotional growth, this is what an user had to say when asked about their commission.

does this look healthy to anyone?

 

[Violent Ken Apologist]

My boredom demands Marl post here too. I want that spinoff, we watch those.

 

[Surf and TERF]

adding to this, the server considers anything that glip does to be correct, especially when backed by axi, opa and eevee. did you ever see the responses to the test by the rest of the server? what do you think they were like? do you think anyone thought that it was kinda fucked up or take my side at all? the rest of the server is outright encouraged to reinforce whatever lesson is being dealt with, even when such lesson is abusive and inappropriate, and that eventually funnels down into comic fodder where whichever party was on the receiving end is caricaturized as a villain the audience knows to root against, further reinforcing the control hierarchy.
View attachment 1481403
(the express my hurt is probably a reference to when I told them that drawing toddler N rape was not cool and the whole server jumped on me for not letting glip express their pain even though I had been personally affected by the image, they apologized in the doc to me but I guess it mattered diddly dick after all if they're still gonna push this)

on the subject of the bdsm commissions, what unsettled me isn't that the customers are paying glip to make them art, it's that the art is being presented and effectively marketed towards the server as a former of therapeutic emotional expression while reinforcing glip's rule as an authority in the scenario, both by financially giving them money in order to facilitate the creation of the image itself but also because it's specifically glip dominating the customer under the guise of emotional growth, this is what an user had to say when asked about their commission.

View attachment 1481408

does this look healthy to anyone?

I’ll be honest. I went through Hollace’s social media a while back and refrained from sharing because I felt bad for her (him?) I can’t remember the pronouns. They were ftm trans or something.

Very unhealthy looking individual in their teens/early twenties. Self-admitted to having poor mental health. Basically the exact stereotype of someone who would get pulled in by Glip. They're the kind of person you want to sit down and kindly talk some sense into, but I'm trying to keep my hands clean.

 

[Violent Ken Apologist]

Are we sure these two are *just* traumatized? It sounds like Eevee enjoyed a fair deal of the screwed up shit that happened to them, PK was obviously more emotionally affected by lots of it but a good deal of their idiocy just seems like an excuse to justify them insensitively parading around their ignorance about normal people and advertising to others that they should enjoy it too. I don't buy this 'internalized trauma' schtick, encouraging a child to fuck their sister when underaged just shows a patented lack of knowledge about how this might ever be harmful and makes it blatant that they (Eevee at the least) don't feel harmed at all.

AoC isn't a magic number, people respond differently to adolescent experiences. It's an attempt to aggregate and reduce the mean amount of suffering and sour grapes concerning intimate experiences and for the most part works (with the understandable caveat that some people even over the AoC can be affected disproportionately by their emotions, I sometimes believe it should be as high as 21 because there's no clearly defined dichotomy between a minor and adult as is). Occasionally someone either ends up liking it in hindsight which ofc generally doesn't justify any perpetration involved or they are screwed up like Eevee which has it inevitably boiling down to the lack of self reflection they have concerning their ordeals.

The trauma narrative always sounded like an incredibly convenient ploy to escape culpability.

 

[CallieMarie]

Why on Earth would you perpetuate their delusions? There is no "PK", no "glip", no "gliph" (no idea where that one came from), no "Marl". Just MELANIE, JAYSON, and ALEXANDER. Not only is this not helping you all process your emotions on getting out of their influence, it makes it completely unreadable for anybody who wasn't part of their "fandom" to figure out who the fuck you are talking about, especially when some of you use "PK" and others use "glip" and "gliph". Annoying as fuck. They are criminals and will likely be found by their legal names, not by "pk" or "glip". Help people out who are serious about them getting busted. Snap out of it.

If you want to use legal names it's actually Ash, Lycus and Evelyn. All 3 got legal name changes.

Also the "what pronouns to use" for those 3 has been beaten to death. It's a topic thats derailed the thread multiple times and by the end of it who gives a shit, actually. Calm down.

 

[Papertowelroll]

I'm not very active here, but I've been following this thread for quite a few years now and have read every page. I have had the great fortune of only having brief interactions with Glip or Eevee or Marl and never getting sucked into their cult. And at the risk of powerleveling, I have had the great misfortune of dealing with abusers in my own life, and learning a great deal about them through various sources, academic or otherwise.

@Hatun Glip and Eevee are a lost cause and they are not your responsibility to fix. I know you don't believe that they are beyond help, and maybe they aren't, but to you they are. There is nothing one man, untrained in the psychology of abusers and the psychology of humanity in general, can do here that will change them or help them. All you are doing is putting yourself at risk.

If you take absolutely nothing else from the posts here, I implore you to read this book by Lundy Bancroft, titled Why Does He Do That? That link is a free online version of the book. It is an intense and intimate look into abusers and their behavior; it is primarily about male abusers but I feel it's completely applicable in this and many other situations.

You'll note that Lundy places a strong emphasis on the fact that abusers largely do not change. This is a hard truth to swallow. There is evidence of abusers "changing" and "understanding" what they've done wrong and even apologizing - all the way up until they lapse exactly back in the old behavior again. Whether it'll happen now or later, it will happen.

And yes, Glip is an abuser. Is this familiar?

The central attitudes driving the Victim are:

Everybody has done me wrong, especially the people I’ve been involved with.

When you accuse me of being abusive, you are joining the parade of people who have been cruel and unfair to me. It proves you’re just like the rest.

It’s justifiable for me to do to you whatever I feel you are doing to me, and even to make it quite a bit worse to make sure you get the message.

I’ve had it so hard that I’m not responsible for my actions.

Maybe Glip hasn't done this to you but they have done this to many. They haven't done this to you because you know these tactics - but even trained psychologists can be manipulated by abusers. There are instances of abusers who talk their therapists into siding with them and even diagnosing their abused partners with personality disorders despite never having met them.

Glip centers everything around themself - it's a cult of personality. Floraverse is no longer about a story but about their own experiences; their Discord server is proof that they are running a cult based on them. Everyone in the server is beholden to them, thinks of them as a master of emotions or wit or creativity, is obsessed with them. "Scenes" are highly abusive and cannot be done "correctly" regardless of how the mods act. The server is an abusive, extremely toxic environment beholden by an abusive person.

I know you are concerned about Marl. What you need to understand is that Glip and Eevee have ever resource to deal with Marl on their own. If they wanted to, they would. They do not need you for this.

I know it's incredibly difficult to walk away from this type of situation and I know that you probably won't until it's too late. They will get inside your head and I know you see yourself as strong and impervious to their tricks but that's the tactic these kinds of people use.

Read the book, at least. This is a toxic situation and they are toxic people.

 

[Null]

So this is what someone has told me:

1. You guys made an off-site Discord server to bitch about PK (already super gay).
2. You let her take control of the server (incredibly fucking gay).
3. You now engage in off-site campaigns with her (unbelievably fucking gay).
4. You are acting as her personal army in canceling her ex (stupendously, horrifically homosexual).

Why should I not just boot all you fuckers to the curb right now?

 

[Violent Ken Apologist]

So this is what someone has told me:

1. You guys made an off-site Discord server to bitch about PK (already super gay).
2. You let her take control of the server (incredibly fucking gay).
3. You now engage in off-site campaigns with her (unbelievably fucking gay).
4. You are acting as her personal army in canceling her ex (stupendously, horrifically homosexual).

Why should I not just boot all you fuckers to the curb right now?

It'd be hype. Give the thread the Komm Susser Tod if you want.

 

[bonanus]

So this is what someone has told me:

1. You guys made an off-site Discord server to bitch about PK (already super gay).
2. You let her take control of the server (incredibly fucking gay).
3. You now engage in off-site campaigns with her (unbelievably fucking gay).
4. You are acting as her personal army in canceling her ex (stupendously, horrifically homosexual).

Why should I not just boot all you fuckers to the curb right now?

Just boot all of the powerlevelers, whiteknights, and everyone who was involved in the retarded Discord server.

 

[Null]

Just boot all of the powerlevelers, whiteknights, and everyone who was involved in the retarded Discord server.

Name names. Anyone who's posted a Discord link here needs to be on it. Quote a post of theirs to support your claim. If you think they're deleting posts, let me know.

 

[CallieMarie]

1. You guys made an off-site Discord server to bitch about PK (already super gay).
2. You let her take control of the server (incredibly fucking gay)

That was the Redesigning Floraverse thread folk who did this. It was a containment thread for the morons who thought floraverse had any value.

 

[Null]

I saw that @Meowthkip is active in the thread and made this post, so I'm going to dm them before doing anything.

Honestly the main reason I didn't ban SCC for sticking around was because it didn't even seem like a ween attempt.

But from this point onward, anybody posting about how they're interacting with people in the server (rather than just documenting the foolishness) is eating a ban, for their own protection.

 

[Boxed in Lurker]

Wasn't the discord for the redesigning floraverse containment thread just a mole thing from the very beginning? If I remember correctly, Glip n co made many attempts to get everyone, using that thread. Especially that time someone posted a link so everyone could draw together and then Glip and Opa appeared. Then the person who made the discord invited Glip and let her take over it.

Feel free to correct me on any of this.

Anyways,
Pengo I honestly think you're putting too much time and yourself into Glip. She's a lost cause and hoping she'll change or do anything positive is a hope not worth entertaining. It's best to just cut off completely from that and call it a day. I mean just look at how she responded to us not buying her 200+ word vomit of an "apology".

 

[Violent Ken Apologist]

Again, just because there is a demand does not mean it is okay to supply. Just because there are slews of pedophiles willing to pay top dollar for CP does not mean you should stoop so low as to providing that type of content to these individuals. Just because these people “consented” to the commissions- and i say that with quotes because there is an extreme power pay going on here and a severe misuse of one’s trauma and trust to the point any spoken consent is void of meaning- does not mean it absolves responsibility on Glip here. They should not have done those commissions and used peoples TRAUMA to romanticize and sexualize their commissioner’s experiences. people paying money for these commissions and wanting Glip to dom them isnt just a matter of taste, its an abuse of power that Glip INTRODUCED as an idea to them that people latched onto because as we’ve all stated, people want to be close to Glip and get their attention. Glip coming up with the idea of these commissions, offering them to their abused and vulnerable fans in their closed off community, and then taking their money for them is downright creepy. I don’t care that people wanted it and that point alone is never going to make it okay. Though im hesitant to make this comparison because these people are legal adults, it gives me grooming vibes. It genuinely feels like grooming tactics of sprinkling in problematic shit but with rose colored glasses to make it not look bad and the people engaging dont realize its harmful.



One victim’s choice to accept an apology is theirs and theirs alone. That doesnt mean others should accept it, that the party in question should feel absolved of guilt or responsibility since one person was fine with it, and especially forgetting to take into account everyone’s views on the situation when theres victims who came here since Glip writes off the entirety of the Farms as abusers and a hivemind. I can’t speak for the others here and i dont know @sad cowboy cat nor their relationship to the community besides the fact we both were harmed by Glip’s abuse art, but i was a former fan that came here in 2018 because it was literally impossible to talk to Glip and co. about the situation without vitriol and harassment. Anyone who questioned their role in the abuses Marl committed was accused of being a KF spy or a stalker or some bullshit. We had NO INFORMATION and no explanation for the logs, the write off of the grooming victims, nothing. Coming here and talking about it with others was the only place where people weren’t kissing Glip’s ass and excusing their role in harm, the only place where vague “i didn’t know anything about Marl’s dogfucking” from Glip was actually scrutinized and where the veil of gaslighting wasn’t taking place. It was a place outside of the communities Glip tried to control the narrative of and that lack of their oversight was safer than their own spaces.

To continue to write off all KF members as racist homophobic shitholes when some of us were genuinely people in their community before shit hit the fan is disingenuine and rewritting the narrative. This thread has a lot of exceptions to the rest of KF because unlike other threads on this site that are rampant with handfuls trolls attacking folks for seemingly no reason, we HAVE a reason to be angry and disgusted with the people this thread is focussed on. These are SERIOUS allegations and abuses that are documented and proven true. This thread has brought outside users who normally would never venture onto this site together because Glip made us feel so unsafe and unheard that a place as dark and dank as KF was the one place we could be heard. Just because we ventured here doesnt make our experiences less valid, and me not forgiving or wanting Glip’s excuses for drawing rape art and romanticizing grooming shouldn’t be questioned on their end just because I’m posting from KF.



Here is what Glip can do.

Spoiler: Long list of steps to not be an absolute walnut

1. Stop fucking doing these commissions where you put your community member’s self inserts into a piece and use their abuse to rewrite their experiences and sexualize it. You are not a therapist, you are an artist who has been abused. Just because you are abused does not make you an expert on mental health and you do not understand how harmful this kind of romanticizing of abuse is to someone. Just because it made you not have to think about the shit Marl did to you doesnt mean its okay for you to impose that on others. Not to arm chair psychology, but it didn‘t help you then and continuing to hold on to that coping mechanism now when you’re not being abused by him anymore is only continuously traumatizing you and desensitizing you to those topics so you don’t think theres any harm to it.
2. Address EVERYONE. BF, Lain, and Pengo are the main victims here but there are so many others that are not being heard. We just saw logs of @sad cowboy cat ‘s scene come out and dms between the two of them where Glip wrote off their experiences and made excuses. They were scrutinized because of being from KF and i dont believe for a second that Glip didn’t know it because they slapped a big red KFER role onto them the second they were in the server INVITING that kind of harassment. If you can’t see us as victims or people because we posted on this website, you aren’t genuinely sorry, nor do you understand the hurt you’ve caused.
3. Stop turning this situation into comics fodder. This drama isn’t a memoir comic. These are real people being victimized and abused by a pedophile animal fucker. When you make this into a story, it makes us feel like you arent taking it seriously and that this is all just a play for you. We don’t want to see this turned into fuel for your brand or your website or your art or your community. We want you to stop trying to tie this into your webcomic because this is about WAY more than JUST you. Stop putting Pengo in your self pitying exploratory artwork, because hes stated here it makes him uncomfortable. If you’re going to use comics and art to explore your feelings and work out how you feel about the situation, stop posting it online especially when it deals with this situation and multiple other people. We don’t appreciate being used as background characters and antagonists in your work and its disrespectful to what we all dealt with to make this into a visual novel.
4. For gods sake take a minute to stop making it about yourself. I UNDERSTAND you were at the center of Marl’s abuse. I UNDERSTAND you went through some of the worst of his manipulation and sexual deviancy. But this is not a contest. This is not an oppression olympics of who had it worst. Why we can’t have an open discussion about how he hurt ALL of us and we have to continuously be reminded you had the first place ribbon for being his prime victim is beyond me. No one genuine is saying you weren’t abused, and no one is forgetting about the things you went through. But you need to stop putting yourself in the forefront of this discussion and acting like you were the Head Victim TM. You have a lot of say and a larger voice since you lived with Marl for years, were married to him, and were seeing first hand how he committed his atrocities. But you need to sit the fuck down and let others speak our truths to say how we felt and how we were victims, not just by Marl but by You. And not in the flora server during a community controlled scene, on our OWN ACCORD and by our OWN VOLITION.
5. GENUINELY ACKNOWLEDGE YOU HAD A ROLE IN THIS AND ARE AT FAULT FOR THE ABUSES YOU COMMITTED. You weren’t the one trying to statutory rape children. You weren’t the one who fucked Apollo. You weren’t the one who groomed BF, Lain, or Pengo. But you WERE an artist who created pedophilic, beatiality, and rape artwork. You were someone who said “sorry something i drew made you have a bad feeling” in response to people speaking about how that artwork was used to groom and sexually abuse them. You were a victimizing, rape apologist who excused Marl’s actions and said that children were lying to ruin your life, as an adult. You let your past traumas cloud your judgement and made snap decisions and impressions on the people calling you two out instead of listening to them and hearing their stories. You made people in your community feel like traitors and abusers for doubting you and your clique and then publicly shamed them or ostracized people breaking ranks when they said anything about the situation that didn’t absolve you of responsibility or believe your line of events. Events that you LIED about. Events there we knew happened since the logs came out in 2018 that you continued to deny until you realized you couldn’t run from it any longer. You hurt so many people. For YEARS. And you still havent taken that responsibility or come to understand how you played a role in hurting these people.
6. Get therapy. Please. Please please please. Talk to a professional and stay offline if you can while you work through things. I understand its scary talking to a professional, and that you’ve had bad experiences with therapists in the past, but you NEED TO DO THIS if you want any chance at healing. If Pengo going through therapy and getting Glip to come out and admit they were wrong is any show of success, you would realize how much it will help you. If i’m to believe you all are working on sending Marl to jail and you’re concerned about getting implicated in things, i can understand that fear but it doesn’t mean you shouldn’t do it. You need to unpack everything, and i mean EVERYTHING. Doing floraverse scenes and continuing to garner validation and attention from your community is not helping you. You need to go into recovery and begin your journey of healing, because as much as you SAY you feel better and healthier, you aren’t making strides and working through the trauma in a healthy way and a proffessional who can guide you properly will help so much more than a bunch of also mentally ill teens and adult who are probably not equipped with a psychology degree and a specialty in trauma. Also airing out this trauma is doing more harm than good. You all need to learn to separate your personal life from your online personas. Not every waking thought or experience from your daily lives needs to be shared with the internet, and part of why you have such severe paranoia and fear is because you havent learned from having a nearly 2k page long thread about you on the internet combing through your posts. make a private twitter for your ramblings and venting where only your friends can access or something, get a journal. Just stop seeking validation from strangers on the internet.
7. Follow through on getting Marl arrested. This is the biggest thing you can do to redeem yourself. Just fight tooth and fucking nail to get that pedophile freak behind bars and make him rot for the rest of his miserable life. He is the root of the issues. Without Marl, most if not all of these problems would have never happened. He is the one abuser you have the power to destroy. With how much you speak of hating him and hating abusers, this is the thing you can do to prove it. So many victims still feel you harbored and hid him like a fugitive purposefully to avoid any consequences. Even if it was without intent, you were complicit in him not being caught. You want everyone’s forgiveness? Put that motherfucker in prison and finally end this cycle of pain.

i wasnt intending on this becoming this long but honestly i think Glip needs to have this spelled out for them if theyre genuine about making a change. Lots of folks think theyre a lost cause and ive lost a lot of trust and sympathy in them for all of this, but maybe im naive like you too, Pengo. still, posting a list of shit they can do to not be a complete jerk and gain people’s trust again is a lot less invasive and direct than what you’re doing. Do what you will with this.

This whole situation is cringe so I'm done here but btw she did fuck Apollo. I don't give a shit about Marl's 'role' in that she chose to do it, eat shit.

 

[Knife Cat]

This whole situation is cringe so I'm done here but btw she did fuck Apollo. I don't give a shit about Marl's 'role' in that she chose to do it, eat shit.

they fucked a dog but didnt say they fucked apollo. If you want to believe that i aint stopping you, as im just going off the shit they said in their doc. I’m just making a point about the specific abuses they committed against others, dog fucking aside as thats what i can personally speak on. The dog fucking is pretty shocking though, i remember full body cringing reading that section of the doc in horror.