Anti-Vax Movement

[IwegalBadnik]

http://www.king5.com/story/news/health/2015/07/02/clallam-county-measles-death/29622875/

A woman died of the measles here in Washington today. She was on medication that suppressed her immune response, which means that her vaccinations weren't going to protect her. Guess how she got exposed in the first place? A carrier in a waiting room.

This is why vaccination is important. If the carrier had been vaccinated, this woman would be alive today.

To the anti-vaxxers, that carrier's supposed right to not get vaccinations trumped that woman's right to live.

You often hear entitlement talked about as selfish and taking from society, but I can think of no better an example of a group with entitlement issues than anti-vaxxers. They care for no one but themselves (and ultimately not even one another) whilst taking money from the public by forcing responses to issues that should be rare or gone and risking and sometimes even killing others.

That is entitlement.

 

[registereduser]

Every few years some parents in my state get charged with negligent homicide, or whatever it's called, because they're Christian Scientists and they don't believe in any kind of medical intervention, so their kids die from easily preventable conditions. Same thing should apply with vaccines.

 

[AnOminous]

Every few years some parents in my state get charged with negligent homicide, or whatever it's called, because they're Christian Scientists and they don't believe in any kind of medical intervention, so their kids die from easily preventable conditions. Same thing should apply with vaccines.

Actually, society should step in before these scum murder someone.

 

[IwegalBadnik]

Actually, society should step in before these scum murder someone.

Good point. Remember: if someone asks them to get vaccinations, those people are "invading their rights;" but if they kill someone as a result of not getting their shots, they are merely "exercising their rights." According to their own rhetoric, it is not hypocritical of them to complain about being harmed by vaccines while their lack of vaccinations can harm (or perhaps kill) others.

(Mind you, we are entertaining the false notion that vaccines actually do harm for the sake of argument. Even so, this is how their logic holds up.)

 

[MysticMisty]

I get all my medical advice from has-been actors and people mostly known for showing tits on camera.

You would think these would be the words of an entire nation, but unfortunately having a famous name and face (or boobs) means a shocking amount of people are going to listen to the crap celebrities spew and absorb it.

 

[registereduser]

Actually, society should step in before these scum murder someone.

I'm not sure how it works with the Christian Scientists, if someone can report them for neglect for not getting medical help before their kids die (I assume that they can and that it's just that the CS people are so insulated that outsiders don't find out until the parents report the death), but what I mean is that willfully not getting your kids medical treatment, including preventative treatments such as vaccines, should be grounds for a child neglect charge, and cps intervention. It should be taken that seriously imo.

 

[Vitriol]

Thought it was worth mentioning there is 12x more mercury in a tuna sandwich than a vaccine.

Of course its a mercury compound in both and most modern vaccines don't even use said compound but if anti vaccers understood chemistry they wouldn't be anti vacc!

 

[Kaz]

http://vaccineliberationarmy.com/

For a serious movement, it's kind of obvious that they don't have any web devs - the VLA came to my attention when I saw them on a social media website after someone got sent their stickers - they're fear mongering and insane.

These guys are apparently led by Eileen Dannemann, who is the director of the National Coalition of Organized Women. Who should have her own thread entirely.

>bipedal machine avatars
>self replicating nanobots
>cyborgs
War has changed.....

 

[AnOminous]

I'm not sure how it works with the Christian Scientists, if someone can report them for neglect for not getting medical help before their kids die (I assume that they can and that it's just that the CS people are so insulated that outsiders don't find out until the parents report the death), but what I mean is that willfully not getting your kids medical treatment, including preventative treatments such as vaccines, should be grounds for a child neglect charge, and cps intervention. It should be taken that seriously imo.

Most Christian Science practitioners actually don't force their dumb beliefs on their kids in such a direct way. They also don't excommunicate you if you actually do get medical intervention.

Jehovah's Witnesses are more known for this, when they try to prevent things like blood transfusions.

A difference with anti-vax scum is their behavior doesn't just affect them, or their family, but basically everyone who can be infected with the diseases they spread.

 

[KatsuKitty]

This is where the lolbertarian viewpoint breaks absolutely, because infectious diseases are an area where there is nothing purely personal. Your dumbass decisions directly affect other people.

Part of living in a free society means that it's not the government's job to tell me to care about other people in an active and engaged role. To be free and respectful of this freedom means laizzez-faire, to leave others alone. This social contract does not require me to go out of my way to help others.

So should you get vaccinated? Yes. Must you? Within certain environments (school enrollment and our exisiting vaccine policy in general). Must everyone? Absolutely not.

This argument is very similar to guns. Yes, guns cause more deaths, but that's not as important as the right to defend yourself from other people carrying guns. It's a tradeoff that we make in a free society. By comparison, we could end all drug crime by stationing a soldier in every home; is it the solution though?

The role of government as an arbiter of medicine must be exercised very carefully. Vaccines are harmless enough. But it creates poor legal tradition. Will dangerous transhuman "enhancement" procedures under general anesthesia be mandated next, on the pretense that your reflexes are quicker when driving or that you won't misbehave due to mental illness? Every mandate sets precedent in court, and government intrusion on our bodies is a very poor precedent.

 

[Andy27]

I was glad I had never met any anti-vaccer in person. Then I learned that I have relatives who are anti-vaccers and have refused to vaccinate their kids. At least we are not related by blood.

I'm generally in favor of keeping the government away from people's personal business but for this I would make an exception.

 

[Do You Realize]

Government requires reporting of venereal (STD) diseases. Governnment requires reporting of AIDS. Government requires reporting of cancer (I know, that is literally my job). That is not an intrusion on one's body, that is public health. When a woman here and a child in Spain die of diseases that had all but been eradicated completely, because some members of society are not partipating in keeping public health strong and effective, the government has a duty to step in. What happened at Disneyland was a perfect example of epidemiology in action, and it will happen again until these idiots get with the program. Their rights do not trump the rights of immunocompromised young children, sick and elderly adults.

 

[KatsuKitty]

Government requires reporting of venereal (STD) diseases. Governnment requires reporting of AIDS. Government requires reporting of cancer (I know, that is literally my job). That is not an intrusion on one's body, that is public health. When a woman here and a child in Spain die of diseases that had all but been eradicated completely, because some members of society are not partipating in keeping public health strong and effective, the government has a duty to step in. What happened at Disneyland was a perfect example of epidemiology in action, and it will happen again until these idiots get with the program. Their rights do not trump the rights of immunocompromised young children, sick and elderly adults.

Reporting an illness does not carry the same gravity as mandating that all adult citizens have an interaction with the medical establishment.

 

[AnOminous]

Part of living in a free society means that it's not the government's job to tell me to care about other people in an active and engaged role.

You don't have to care about other people. I could give two shits about that.

But if you're actively expressing pathogens into the environment, anyone who puts a bullet in you is doing the world a favor.

Just saying.

 

[sugoi-chan]

Didn't we have a larger anti-vaxxer thread at some point?

 

[KatsuKitty]

You don't have to care about other people. I could give two shits about that.

But if you're actively expressing pathogens into the environment, anyone who puts a bullet in you is doing the world a favor.

Just saying.

There is a (slightly less objectionable) right of government to quarantine vaccinated people who test positive for an illness (additionally, they have the right to refuse all treatment while in isolation).

 

[Vitriol]

The right to life trumps the right to freedom, thats the justification for mandatory vaccines and for licences for dangerous machines like cars and guns. Its also the justification for enforcing quarantines of infectious diseases. Public health wins out over personal freedom every time.

 

[AnOminous]

There is a (slightly less objectionable) right of government to quarantine vaccinated people who test positive for an illness (additionally, they have the right to refuse all treatment while in isolation).

I'd at least conditionally agree with that, but at the point the cost of it skyrockets, I'd also agree with just shooting the dumbass who is costing everyone this much money and burying them out back.

 

[KatsuKitty]

The right to life trumps the right to freedom, thats the justification for mandatory vaccines and for licences for dangerous machines like cars and guns. Its also the justification for enforcing quarantines of infectious diseases. Public health wins out over personal freedom every time.

And I don't have a problem with quarantine. But forcing adults to submit to medical procedures of any kind is a dangerous legal road to tread down. It is why things like mental health commitment require specific court orders before you can be given anything (although you can be passively held).

 

[KatsuKitty]

I'd at least conditionally agree with that, but at the point the cost of it skyrockets, I'd also agree with just shooting the dumbass who is costing everyone this much money and burying them out back.

Cost of quarantine can come at the expense of those who refused the vaccinations.

When the city tears down a dangerous structure owned by you, they send you the bill, and that never goes away.