How should muslims be dealt with?

[Dyn]

Like any other religion, OPtard?

Give them freedom of worship, as long as it conforms with the country's laws.

It's just that simple.

This. What a silly question.

 

[Mischievous Missus]

Islam needs to modernize, in context with the Western world.

You mean, like redoing "Married with Children", just with the prophet Muhammad?
Mud wrestling with burkha girls?
Guess that bird won't fly.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Integration, secularization, and only accepting muslims from regions or nations where the religion is pretty much either defanged, or where youre taking in the most liberal class of muslims, tbh.

If you take in muslims from a nation where the religion isn't defanged or isn't secularized, then you'd best integrate them and not simply forget about them festering in ghettos and then wonder why a decade later you have a problem with disenfranchised muslim youth and extremism.

Secularized muslims still have an interest in pushing the country towards sharia law. They still want people to stop drinking alcohol, prefferably by making it illegal, for example.

I've known more than a few. The problem is more complex than just worrying about fundamentalist extremists.

 

[DiscoRodeo]

Secularized muslims still have an interest in pushing the country towards sharia law. They still want people to stop drinking alcohol, prefferably by making it illegal, for example.

Then they really have no business pushing this, because secularized probably should imply not trying to push religious dogma.

Or maybe they are secularized and they see it as a cultural issue, or theyre just vague authoritarians who see an alcohol problem, etc.

Honestly- I think secularization in the true sense would work, but don't really care enough about it. What Id rather see is the defanged version of islam become something more ingrained. Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, most major religions are pretty defanged, even among non-secularized versions.

What I mean by this is the holy books are largely still the same, but you don't see "radical jews" as common to the trope, or "radical christians" (though that part is debatable). Most people follow a pick and choose/ defanged version of their religion where its relevance in their daily life is pretty substandard to the secular values of the nation they live in, and where for all intents and purposes they follow an apatheistic version of their faith and tend to avoid the fanged, more extreme or autistic aspects of the religion that would pose a problem with secular society.

But if you do have a secular person, they shouldn't be religious by definition and if they still have this baggage and conflate it as a "cultural" issue, well- that should be addressed too I guess, as religious baggage masquerading as cultural baggage they want to force on others.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Then they really have no business pushing this, because secularized probably should imply not trying to push religious dogma.

Or maybe they are secularized and they see it as a cultural issue, or theyre just vague authoritarians who see an alcohol problem, etc.

Honestly- I think secularization in the true sense would work, but don't really care enough about it. What Id rather see is the defanged version of islam become something more ingrained. Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, most major religions are pretty defanged, even among non-secularized versions.

What I mean by this is the holy books are largely still the same, but you don't see "radical jews" as common to the trope, or "radical christians" (though that part is debatable). Most people follow a pick and choose/ defanged version of their religion where its relevance in their daily life is pretty substandard to the secular values of the nation they live in, and where for all intents and purposes they follow an apatheistic version of their faith and tend to avoid the fanged, more extreme or autistic aspects of the religion that would pose a problem with secular society.

But if you do have a secular person, they shouldn't be religious by definition and if they still have this baggage and conflate it as a "cultural" issue, well- that should be addressed too I guess, as religious baggage masquerading as cultural baggage they want to force on others.

Yes, who doesn't wish for their political competitors to be defanged?

It is a pipe dream. All your "should"s are rooted in fantasy. People "should be happy and cooperate and sing kumbaya together. Particularly people with competing world views. It doesn't work that way.

Also I don't know why you think that absence of radical christians is debatable, but absence of radical jews a fact.

It's easy to make lists of radical jews venerated by media and academia, some like susan rosenberg literal terrorists. Just because media doesn't talk about them (hmmm wonder why?) doesn't negate their existance.

Or just look at how many babies each year get a STD from the ceremonial bris.

 

[DiscoRodeo]

Yes, who doesn't wish for their political competitors to be defanged?

It is a pipe dream. All your "should"s are rooted in fantasy. People "shouldl be happy and cooperate and sing kumbaya together. Particularly people with competing world views. It doesn't work that way.

Yeah, youre missing the second part of the equation there. We should be better, therefore- lets try and find ways to help facilitate that process.

We miss the ball when we don't seek to integrate muslim immigrants from religious fundie nations, and should try to better incorporate them, get them in school programs, penetrate ghettos we aren't currently, etc.

Should is one part of the equation, the other part is to actually act in an actionable way. If what youre saying is that its impossible to integrate or secularize or defang muslims, thats one thing. We both agree that they should be better adjusted to our society, so youre in the same fantasy world there apparently. Where we differ is Id argue, that we can certainly do a better job of attempting to get there.

 

[Wuornos]

Like any other religion, OPtard?

Give them freedom of worship, as long as it conforms with the country's laws.

It's just that simple.

Which is what Western countries have been doing...and it hasn't been working out too well, has it?

They are a barbaric death cult that has been waging war for 1400 years unabated. They don't want peace. Only submission.

 

[Mischievous Missus]

They are a barbaric death cult that has been waging war for 1400 years unabated. They don't want peace. Only submission.

With a little bit of good will, you could apply that to Christianity as well.

 

[Lemmingwise]

We miss the ball when we don't seek to integrate muslim immigrants from religious fundie nations

They don't want to be integrated.

In the netherlands for example, every generation is less integrated than the previous one.

Why? Because maybe after they've solved their primary needs in maslow hierarchy, they then go on towards solving the less immediate needs in accordance with their culture. They end up adopting more noticable cultural mores such as more excessive face covering for women than their place of origin as a way to differentiate from the local populace, for example.

Here's the real integration thought experiment. How many generations would it take, starting with you and your wife moving to saudi arabia,until your family believes women shouldn't drive and that their testimony is worth half that of a man?

 

[Wuornos]

With a little bit of good will, you could apply that to Christianity as well.

Where are Christians beheading teachers in the streets, or storming schools and kidnapping children, or marrying and impregnating eleven year old girls? The overwhelming majority of terrorist attacks, on a global scale, are committed by Muslims.

 

[Mischievous Missus]

Where are Christians beheading teachers in the streets, or storming schools and kidnapping children, or marrying and impregnating eleven year old girls? The overwhelming majority of terrorist attacks, on a global scale, are committed by Muslims.

Smoking kills.

 

[DiscoRodeo]

They don't want to be integrated.

Depends on the nation, depends on the person. As stated earlier here

and only accepting muslims from regions or nations where the religion is pretty much either defanged, or where youre taking in the most liberal class of muslims, tbh.

Now, why? Youre showing a bit of autism with maslow hierarchy and seems you think the issue is "we threw enough money at them, why aren't they integrating? Even with all the money we throw at them, they still tend to embrace regressive cultural traits- it must be inevitable".

I full disagree here, I don't even care about the face coverings; but I do believe the major problem is that governments havn't integrated these people for fear of "islamophobia", have simply allowed ghettos to fester, have created situations where young kids may not even be going to school or may be going to a islamic school only, where they exist in basically bubbles within society, and where otherwise they simply don't integrate.

I can point to cases in the US where after a generation young muslims pretty much embrace the defanged version of their religion. I can also point to situations where, for various reasons of "we never fit into society, so we rejected the mainstream society and the islamists welcomed us" happens in the US too.

In places like Sweden or the Netherlands, where schools bend over backwards not to integrate and not to secularize people, where they are left to castigate in their ghettos and money is just tossed out at them but theres not really much attempt to get them invested in the larger secularized society as a whole- or to force secularization while young, its pretty obvious that the sort of cultural break is going to just fester.

If there is to be an honest solution, it probably is going to involve limiting immigration from nations that are problematic and where muslims are entirely used to sharia law being the defacto law, where people are beheaded, where gays are stoned, etc. We shouldn't be accepting immigrants from these cultures largely, but if we do- we damned well better be trying to get their kids in public school and actually invested in society at large. We should be teaching secular values much more strongly in schools and should have rules that help support that and support a secularized life being the only possible one.

The other aspect is, you can still believe in God. You don't have to be fully secularized, but the nations we should accept migrants from should be the ones with defanged versions of islam, which makes integration that much easier. Its either that, or accept the more liberal elite muslims who at least have a sense of how the broader world at large operates.

If someone doesn't want to be integrated- then have secular laws regardless and if they cant follow them, kick em out or arrest them when they do break the law and marry their daughters off in forced marriages or threaten to honor kill, I guess.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Depends on the nation, depends on the person. As stated earlier here

Now, why? Youre showing a bit of autism with maslow hierarchy and seems you think the issue is "we threw enough money at them, why aren't they integrating? Even with all the money we throw at them, they still tend to embrace regressive cultural traits- it must be inevitable".

I full disagree here, I don't even care about the face coverings; but I do believe the major problem is that governments havn't integrated these people for fear of "islamophobia", have simply allowed ghettos to fester, have created situations where young kids may not even be going to school or may be going to a islamic school only, where they exist in basically bubbles within society, and where otherwise they simply don't integrate.

I can point to cases in the US where after a generation young muslims pretty much embrace the defanged version of their religion. I can also point to situations where, for various reasons of "we never fit into society, so we rejected the mainstream society and the islamists welcomed us" happens in the US too.

In places like Sweden or the Netherlands, where schools bend over backwards not to integrate and not to secularize people, where they are left to castigate in their ghettos and money is just tossed out at them but theres not really much attempt to get them invested in the larger secularized society as a whole- or to force secularization while young, its pretty obvious that the sort of cultural break is going to just fester.

If there is to be an honest solution, it probably is going to involve limiting immigration from nations that are problematic and where muslims are entirely used to sharia law being the defacto law, where people are beheaded, where gays are stoned, etc. We shouldn't be accepting immigrants from these cultures largely, but if we do- we damned well better be trying to get their kids in public school and actually invested in society at large. We should be teaching secular values much more strongly in schools and should have rules that help support that and support a secularized life being the only possible one.

The other aspect is, you can still believe in God. You don't have to be fully secularized, but the nations we should accept migrants from should be the ones with defanged versions of islam, which makes integration that much easier. Its either that, or accept the more liberal elite muslims who at least have a sense of how the broader world at large operates.

If someone doesn't want to be integrated- then have secular laws regardless and if they cant follow them, kick em out or arrest them when they do break the law and marry their daughters off in forced marriages or threaten to honor kill, I guess.

It shows how little you know about how things went in the Netherlands.

As for problems with muslim immigrants, it exists in most european countries despite each country getting a very different country of origin. The UK gets pakistanis, Netherlands has moroccans, France has algerians, Swedes have somalis and so on.

There weren't ghetto's before the immigrants. You'd have poverty areas, but they had very little crime. It's why we didn't have civilian gun laws until immigrants used them to take a train hostage. It's why you could leave your bike unlocked in the most "ghetto" ish area of amsterdam in 1960s.

The Netherlands goes very very far into getting kids invested. Sports and recreation activities. You can't throw a stone without hitting a "buurt center", a kind of neighborhood activities organsiation. But still you had teenagers travelling to IS to fight, being helped at the local mosque. Sure it's against their parent's wishes and the home living situation would become impossible if the parents would find out, so these teenagers sometimes look to their teachers for help in trying to resolve whether to go and fight for IS or not.

Do you never stop to think that maybe, just maybe people don't want to integrate, not in the way that matters to you? I notice you haven't answered my question how many generations it would take your family to integrate to saudi arabia. How about morocco. How long would it be until you cheered the TV funded programs, like the make-up programs for women that include tips how to cover up bruises to the face so you can honor your husband by not showing you're being beaten? Would you tell your kids to integrate?

Would you make more of an effort if the Moroccan government "gets you invested" in their country? Would then teaching your daughter to watch that program and take it to heart be a patrotic virtue?

The other aspect is, you can still believe in God. You don't have to be fully secularized, but the nations we should accept migrants from should be the ones with defanged versions of islam, which makes integration that much easier. Its either that, or accept the more liberal elite muslims who at least have a sense of how the broader world at large operates.

It's precisely in discussions with such liberal elite secularized muslims that I found out that even those who were becoming doctors would gladly abolish alcohol wholesale among other things in the Netherlands.

You're at the bargaining stage of dealing with the grief that mass immigration is a failed project. Well, failed if you want to move forward such things as human happiness and opportunity, it's very succesful if your goals are something rather different.

Anyways, why not answer the question seriously? How long would it take you to integrate into a very culturally muslim country? Particularly in an age where anyone can stay in touch with their own culture through satellite tv, youtube and so on, unlike decades ago where people were completely immersed in the other culture.

 

[DiscoRodeo]

I notice you haven't answered my question how many generations it would take your family to integrate to saudi arabia

Because its a stupid question from a europoor lol

Would you make more of an effort if the Moroccan government "gets you invested" in their country? Would then teaching your daughter to watch that program and take it to heart be a patrotic virtue?

Probably yeah. If I have enough invested in the society, Ill follow whatever the society's rules are. Hay man, if I'm going to a college, have a good career trajectory ahead of me, know what it is like to live in society at large and not be an islamic lolcow- fuck me, it'd be stupid to just drop all that and go on a jihad somewhere or fuck it up by trying to honor kill my wife.

Thats the point I'm trying to say. If you are invested in your society, you don't tend to fuck up. I unironically think that a lot of the lolcow problems would be solved if people were actually forced to integrate into society and not have their bullshit catered to, or pushed off to the side and allowed to fester. Get a job and learn how the world actually works and maybe invest in it too, essentially.

Are the buurt centers successful? Again, its not just an issue of chucking money at stuff and hoping it sticks. Some does, a lot doesnt. Try and ensure people have jobs, try and ensure that islamic schools arent the prime method of socialization for these people. As it is, thats not happening in the Netherlands or most of Europe. You can open as many community centers as you want, but if its going to an islamic school 5 days a week and then going to play soccer at the rec center once or twice a week on the weekend- you tell me whats going to happen.

 

[Drag-on Knight 91873]

Islam needs to modernize, in context with the Western world. As of now, extremism and radicals have taken over several Middle Eastern countries. It's downright barbarian if you think about it.

Does it need to modernize really? From their perspective, they see the secular world (i.e. the West) as morally degenerate with our idolization of drug use, constant demands for hedonistic pleasures, and sexual promiscuity. They might have been seeing just how far the West is falling 20 years before we did. Then, their young people look into Islam and find it to be full of conviction and clear rules for their lives which they are absolutely not getting from the West with their moral relativist nonsense.

Remember that the 9/11 terrorists were educated people who could obtain pilot licenses. The young people that joined ISIS did so out of their own volition and at great cost to themselves. Now, I am not saying Islam is right (maybe about women ). What I am saying is why they are dissatisfied with the Secular world and TBH, the Secular World definitely lacks the will to sustain itself.

 

[Not Really Here]

Does it need to modernize really? From their perspective, they see the secular world (i.e. the West) as morally degenerate with our idolization of drug use, constant demands for hedonistic pleasures, and sexual promiscuity. They might have been seeing just how far the West is falling 20 years before we did. Then, their young people look into Islam and find it to be full of conviction and clear rules for their lives which they are absolutely not getting from the West with their moral relativist nonsense.

Remember that the 9/11 terrorists were educated people who could obtain pilot licenses. The young people that joined ISIS did so out of their own volition and at great cost to themselves. Now, I am not saying Islam is right (maybe about women ). What I am saying is why they are dissatisfied with the Secular world and TBH, the Secular World definitely lacks the will to sustain itself.

It doesn't matter anyway, basic tenets of Islam are that Mohammad's words are final and perfect. You can literally get killed for arguing that the childfucker was maybe wrong.
Kinda hard to change something that resists change under pain of death.

 

[DiscoRodeo]

Remember that the 9/11 terrorists were educated people who could obtain pilot licenses. The young people that joined ISIS did so out of their own volition and at great cost to themselves. Now, I am not saying Islam is right (maybe about women ). What I am saying is why they are dissatisfied with the Secular world and TBH, the Secular World definitely lacks the will to sustain itself.

Secular world rocks bro, its just the West which sucks. Look at SK, Japan, Taiwan, Singapore, or the West side of the pacific in general, they don't have these problems and whenever they do have minorities, its typically in smaller numbers and they are forced to integrate

9/11 wasn't about "the West's moral degeneracy" or "they hate us for our freedoms". It was because these "educated" muslims were asshurt that the US had troops stationed in Saudi Arabia, were exploiting middle eastern oil, and this apparently wasn't haram.

 

[Drag-on Knight 91873]

Secular world rocks bro, its just the West which sucks. Look at SK, Japan, Taiwan, Singapore, or the West side of the pacific in general, they don't have these problems and whenever they do have minorities, its typically in smaller numbers and they are forced to integrate

9/11 wasn't about "the West's moral degeneracy" or "they hate us for our freedoms". It was because these "educated" muslims were asshurt that the US had troops stationed in Saudi Arabia, were exploiting middle eastern oil, and this apparently wasn't haram.

Because those countries value their culture that still believes in ancestral worship and the ghosts attached to it. And in luck as something that can be divined onto a calendar. The US and Europe don't value their cultures and thus fail to inspire their Muslim citizens.

 

[DiscoRodeo]

Because those countries value their culture that still believes in ancestral worship and the ghosts attached to it. And in luck as something that can be divined onto a calendar. The US and Europe don't value their cultures and thus fail to inspire their Muslim citizens.

Dunno. I lived in South Korea, they don't give a shit past superficial elements about ancestor worship and all that. Theyre full on capitalist, plastic surgery, and all the fun k-pop stuff.

Know what the real difference is? They also don't have or give a shit about white guilt or kowtowing constantly to the demands of random minorities if theyre absurd. They also embrace the "you fuck up, youre out of here mentality". Theyve got their own problems with being bugmen and the xenophobia, but relative to what we currently have- would probably help the west to emulate that a little bit.

 

[Kill a Troon for Pikamee]

They should simply continue making me delicious and nutritious kebabs and I will keep being grateful for their service. Cute Arab girls can also perform fellatio on me until ejaculation. I love muslims, aside from some theological misconceptions they are nice people