It also seems that this pragmatic bent allows for HSTS's to be much more willing to be honest and flexible; it's not a gut punch to acknowledge that, yeh, in certain respects they are undeniably men. Hence, you'll see more HSTS's being broadly OK with being called a TS, tranny or w/e, so long as it's not intentionally derogatory. If you insist on calling them men without making any distinction, they'll basically just call you autistic and with some justification. This is from Thailand, but it captures the spirit that exists elsewhere:
As someone from Thailand, I feel like this information is not as straightforward.
I'd say that the word 'kathoey' has gone through different periods, wheter it is seen as just descriptive, or pejorative. Thai cuture, in general, compared to the western world, focused less on the semantics and definitive meaning of words. And word-policing or political correctness barely cross most people mind until the invasion of Twitter wokies in the last few years.
If the intention of the speaker of the word kathoey, is discriminating, they would see it as pejorative. And the common discrimination would also come from the insulter ideas that they're failed men and deviants that are not worthy on their own. But it is also very common for kathoeys (and femme gays) to refer themselves with that word. The word itself can range from effeminate gays who would never go through any medical transition, to the one who tried to 'pass', getting hormones and surgeries. A lot of our effiminate gay men also tend to use feminine 1st-person pronouns and accessory words, and call each other with feminine-leaning pronouns out of endearment - without it being their 'true identity'. (Many butch lesbians are also acquainted to referring themselves in masculine 1st person pronouns, too.) Thai pronouns are not strictly coded into the grammar as European languages. We many pronouns, the usage of them are relative and situation dependent, from the age, hierarchy, social class, formality, closeness and situation of the speakers. gender-suggestive pronouns usage is also not coded in stone, but rather relative to the situation as well.
Since pronouns are situational, and everyone will be referred to as different pronouns throughout their life, both 2nd and 3rd person - you can't make one an identity. Except the King and royal family, which they will have a special set of pronouns and vocabulary that are coined specifically refer to them. (Though most common people started to get sick of them recently, too. And we'd talk about them with peasants pronouns in private occasion)
It seem more common to me for masculine gay men to be offended by being called kathoey. As it is questioning their masculinity - than transsexuals/kathoeys/ladyboys to be offended by not being seen as 'real women'. They seem to see their level of 'woman identity' to a lesser degree than western HSTS, even. Though It's certain that they don't want to be seen as having the appearance of 'men' or having manly quality, and want to achieve feminine beauty.
Many of them come to oppose the idea of gender-ID in legal documents when it is suggested to them (This is not yet implemented in Thailand) as they see it to not be reflective of the reality of being male-bodied. The word 'second type woman', also has a suggestive tone that they're not like actual women. But rather its own form of achieved femininity similar to what you have described above. They can easily accept that their bodies are male even if they pass better than 98% of the sideshow examples posted here.
I don't think most people in Thailand see them as 'men' in social, gender role sense, but they also don't see them as women either... they're more of a third gender. They would be offended if you're just calling them 'men in dress' (in the autistic sense you suggested) - as it suggests that they're just deviants, while ignoring the more feminine social and sexual role they play in. It should also be noted that with Thailand. Now it is practically impossible for ladyboys to be passing in traditional sense, as in 'you couldn't tell', because there are so many of them that it becomes a common expectations, and that people have seen them often enough to clock them. Though people respect the prettier and well-groomed ones more.
I can't speak for all of them I'm sure there might be some that would get offended being seen as a kind of men at all and want to see that they achieved womanhood. But there are many that don't.
Imo, legal affirmation of gender identity (and protestant cultural autism) in western countries are, to me, a culprit of a lot of insanity we see here. Legal fictions that pertains to identity seem to create a whole host of issues regarding mental flexibility. Adoptive parents and children in America, whose allow for birth certificate amendment and legal-lies that they're 'no different from biological children', seem to have their own host of denialism and identity issues. Many couldn't settle with the concept that that a kid can be raised and given care off by people who are not 'mother and father'. They need to be called a certain name to feel that their adopted child rearing effort is real. This mentality is no different from gender validation.
I must admit those things allows for the effective managements of population - but it is also a very stifling way to live.
I think a cure is right around the corner.
