Tabletop Community Watch

[LORD IMPERATOR]

On the one hand, Games Workshop is mighty generous towards all their employees.

On the other hand, they treat the fans like shit, clamping down on fan works and forcing people to subscribe to Warhammer Plus for any fan animation content.

I can understand why people would work for GW due to their generosity towards their own people, but the 40K fans have once again proven to have a bigger Stockholm Syndrome than the Star Wars, Starcraft, Halo, or Mass Effect fans. At least even Disney's forced to compromise whenever the SW fans throw a shit fit.

 

[TerribleIdeas™]

Or when they inevitaby get caught. I imagine US jail is not a pleasent location for such people.

As mentioned, the Troonies™ aren't going to go to jail, and if there is a sacrificial offering to make it look like Woko Haram is getting its' collective lady-dick slapped, the offender will get tossed into a low security women's facility.

 

[Dynamic]

On the one hand, Games Workshop is mighty generous towards all their employees.

On the other hand, they treat the fans like shit, clamping down on fan works and forcing people to subscribe to Warhammer Plus for any fan animation content.

I can understand why people would work for GW due to their generosity towards their own people, but the 40K fans have once again proven to have a bigger Stockholm Syndrome than the Star Wars, Starcraft, Halo, or Mass Effect fans. At least even Disney's forced to compromise whenever the SW fans throw a shit fit.

GW never changes. It always does this kind of thing and always will. The fans are such shitty people with so little going on in their lives they make warhammer factions their identity. We've all met the "Space wolves player" or the "Ork player" and you know them even at a distance. They will never give up on their personas and will keep funding GW no matter what. Price hikes coming before Christmas and they will still ask their wife's boyfriend for another space marine character.

The hobby is now so fucked it's not recoverable. It's going to become the next disco, the next skate boarding and every other sub culture chewed up and spit out by the main stream. The only upside is how cheap the second hand market will become for people still invested, many of us won't be.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

GW never changes. It always does this kind of thing and always will. The fans are such shitty people with so little going on in their lives they make warhammer factions their identity. We've all met the "Space wolves player" or the "Ork player" and you know them even at a distance. They will never give up on their personas and will keep funding GW no matter what. Price hikes coming before Christmas and they will still ask their wife's boyfriend for another space marine character.

That's the problem. 40K fans are so obsessive that they'll defend the franchise against any insult or even any insinuation that it isn't top dog, even though the owners of the franchise keep fucking them in the ass. They'll type long responses and even become hostile to anyone who insinuates that 40K doesn't have the best writing, or that some faction out there in some other sci-fi can beat the Imperium, despite the fact that GW pretty much just uses 40K to milk these fans dry out of every last penny while forcing them to pay for the privilege to even see fanmade animations.

Say what you will about Blizzard and how they devolved into greedy MOBA-peddling twats who sold out to China, but at least when GW told them to fuck off, they decided to make their own version of 40K, added Dixie stuff into it, and made their own franchise, Starcraft. Which in the end, wound up being more popular than 40K, to the point where it's now the national sport of a first-world country, South Korea.

And at least SW fans had the balls to show Disney their displeasure by letting Solo tank after Last Jedi, which showed to the suits at Disney that going full woke isn't the way. Disney was forced to compromise and started making content that appealed to the old fans, be it the Mandalorian, Season 7 of Clone Wars, or the Bad Batch. Meanwhile, GW's stock kept on rising after they screwed the fans with the Primaris Marines and 8th Edition of 40K. Which again, means that either the fans are such a minor part of the 40K economy when compared to the kids and the whales, or that the 40K fanboys who keep yelling at GW for screwing them over have a massive case of Stockholm Syndrome and they keep funding the same people who keep screwing them over.

It'd be funny if it wasn't so pathetic.

The hobby is now so fucked it's not recoverable. It's going to become the next disco, the next skate boarding and every other sub culture chewed up and spit out by the main stream. The only upside is how cheap the second hand market will become for people still invested, many of us won't be.

Expect to see entire armies of models going on sale on the second-hand market. But of course, GW will probably counter with new models that have better stats and aesthetics. So you'll still need to buy from them.

 

[Dynamic]

That's the problem. 40K fans are so obsessive that they'll defend the franchise against any insult or even any insinuation that it isn't top dog, even though the owners of the franchise keep fucking them in the ass. They'll type long responses and even become hostile to anyone who insinuates that 40K doesn't have the best writing, or that some faction out there in some other sci-fi can beat the Imperium, despite the fact that GW pretty much just uses 40K to milk these fans dry out of every last penny while forcing them to pay for the privilege to even see fanmade animations.

Say what you will about Blizzard and how they devolved into greedy MOBA-peddling twats who sold out to China, but at least when GW told them to fuck off, they decided to make their own version of 40K, added Dixie stuff into it, and made their own franchise, Starcraft. Which in the end, wound up being more popular than 40K, to the point where it's now the national sport of a first-world country, South Korea.

And at least SW fans had the balls to show Disney their displeasure by letting Solo tank after Last Jedi, which showed to the suits at Disney that going full woke isn't the way. Disney was forced to compromise and started making content that appealed to the old fans, be it the Mandalorian, Season 7 of Clone Wars, or the Bad Batch. Meanwhile, GW's stock kept on rising after they screwed the fans with the Primaris Marines and 8th Edition of 40K. Which again, means that either the fans are such a minor part of the 40K economy when compared to the kids and the whales, or that the 40K fanboys who keep yelling at GW for screwing them over have a massive case of Stockholm Syndrome and they keep funding the same people who keep screwing them over.

It'd be funny if it wasn't so pathetic.


Expect to see entire armies of models going on sale on the second-hand market. But of course, GW will probably counter with new models that have better stats and aesthetics. So you'll still need to buy from them.

WoW is the clear inspiration for AoS too. Blizzard got so big off of not!GW that GW stole from them like every other creative in the industry.

Star wars fans were long gone by the time Solo came out. TLJ pissed off the Tumblr and normie crowd they had attracted. It was a GW stole pump and dump on two fan bases. The modern pandering is more towards the /co/ style fans. The original novel reading/fan film making crowd didn't want more Ahsoka wank.

Would it be possible to do a poll on places like r/warhammer to find out what the average spend per month is for these people? Are the record profits from bored normies or shutting most their stores and working with a skeleton crew?

 

[Shaka Brah]

The modern pandering is more towards the /co/ style fans. The original novel reading/fan film making crowd didn't want more Ahsoka wank.

Most pre-Disney Star Wars fans I know preferred Mandalorian over any other new-franchise thing because it was a space western and had good storytelling elements instead of a by-the-numbers blockbuster movie. I don't know if I can say that space westerns are innovative in a post-Firefly TV landscape, but it hearkened back to the genre film charm that the Star Wars movies had.

I think an equivalent might be the reception of Necromunda and Blood Bowl and other side-games and how people like their nostalgic uniqueness compared to the focus group tested slop that's Age of Sigmar or nu-Hammer.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

WoW is the clear inspiration for AoS too. Blizzard got so big off of not!GW that GW stole from them like every other creative in the industry.

That was GW's fault. Blizzard offered them the opportunity of a lifetime, and they told them to piss off.

Star wars fans were long gone by the time Solo came out. TLJ pissed off the Tumblr and normie crowd they had attracted. It was a GW stole pump and dump on two fan bases. The modern pandering is more towards the /co/ style fans. The original novel reading/fan film making crowd didn't want more Ahsoka wank.

Some are coming back. I knew some came back for Season 7 of TCW and the Bad Batch, while the casuals loved the Mandalorian for basically being Firefly with Star Wars.

Would it be possible to do a poll on places like r/warhammer to find out what the average spend per month is for these people? Are the record profits from bored normies or shutting most their stores and working with a skeleton crew?

I dunno. Maybe someone should do that poll. My money's on the whales and the kids being the main source of income for GW, which is probably why they tell the fans to piss off all the time and suffer no consequences, because like Nintendo and the Pokemon Card Game, most of the people buying that stuff just want to win tournaments.

Most pre-Disney Star Wars fans I know preferred Mandalorian over any other new-franchise thing because it was a space western and had good storytelling elements instead of a by-the-numbers blockbuster movie. I don't know if I can say that space westerns are innovative in a post-Firefly TV landscape, but it hearkened back to the genre film charm that the Star Wars movies had.

It's as I said, many of the old fans came back for the Mando show, because it was actually loyal to elements from Star Wars Legends like how Dark Troopers were a thing and how Beskar was resilient enough to stand up to lightsabers.

I think an equivalent might be the reception of Necromunda and Blood Bowl and other side-games and how people like their nostalgic uniqueness compared to the focus group tested slop that's Age of Sigmar or nu-Hammer.

Basically. Mando, TCW S7, and the Bad Batch are the Necromunda to SW, just as High Republic is their nu-40K/Age of Sigmar

 

[Newman's Lovechild]

Expect to see entire armies of models going on sale on the second-hand market.

Except the ones who burn their armies and post the video online, like that one guy with his dark elves(?) after the release of AoS. There's a certain kind of entitlement with all current and previous GW customers even if it's just an expectation for rules that aren't ass but that guy was the poster child for GW-style parasocial consoomerism making someones mind snap.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

Except the ones who burn their armies and post the video online, like that one guy with his dark elves(?) after the release of AoS. There's a certain kind of entitlement with all current and previous GW customers even if it's just an expectation for rules that aren't ass but that guy was the poster child for GW-style parasocial consoomerism making someones mind snap.

They might as well burn them all. GW would just come up with new models that would make the old models obsolete in terms of stats. If they can do that to Space Marines, they can do that to other armies, as well.

GW customers seem to believe that GW exists for the sole reason of pleasing them and appeasing their throbbing hard-ons for 40K, while they shit on every other sci-fi for not being 40K. They don't realize that GW is a company made to mooch money off tabletop players, nothing more. GW went for the parody market to make fun of things like Star Wars, high fantasy, and Margaret Thatcher during the late 80s because people wanted to make fun of them. GW appeased the edgelords in the 90s and early 2000s because many young people were sick of the sterile, kid-friendly culture of the 90s. (Plus, a lot of darker media like Diablo, Starcraft, and Fallout were doing well in the 90s.) And now, GW is trying to reach for the same market that Pokemon and Fortnite are making money from, so they abandoned the edgelords and went for a kid-friendly approach.

I've got no problems with it, after all, those bonus checks for their employees have to come from somewhere, and a man has to eat, and those action figures look good enough to be bought and placed in someone's collection, but the edgelords just could not let go, so they keep whining that GW abandoned them for a younger audience, as if their wife divorced them for a younger man, when really, GW was never married to them. GW was just mooching off them like a fast woman who jumps from one man to the next for money and cheap thrills.

 

[Inquisitor_BadAss]

Except the ones who burn their armies and post the video online, like that one guy with his dark elves(?) after the release of AoS. There's a certain kind of entitlement with all current and previous GW customers even if it's just an expectation for rules that aren't ass but that guy was the poster child for GW-style parasocial consoomerism making someones mind snap.

Yes it was dark elves and I remember posting that video here. Dude was throwing what was probably the biggest bitch fit in table top history and people forgot. If he did it now the man would be rightfully ridiculed and bullied. He already gave GW his money and they don’t care what happens to the product once the transaction is completed.

 

[Newman's Lovechild]

GW went for the parody market to make fun of things like Star Wars, high fantasy, and Margaret Thatcher during the late 80s because people wanted to make fun of them. GW appeased the edgelords in the 90s and early 2000s because many young people were sick of the sterile, kid-friendly culture of the 90s. And now, GW is trying to reach for the same market that Pokemon and Fortnite are making money from, so they abandoned the edgelords and went for a kid-friendly approach.

I got interested in 40K during 3rd ed, early 2000s, about the same time that the Tau turned up. They themselves the latest 'how do you do fellow kids' attempt to jump on a pop-cultural bandwagon that pissed off the old guard. I would guess that was when the satire included by bongs who took The Young Ones and 2000AD intravenously had been reined in, but before the crapsack grimdarkness started to give way to 'SpACe mArInES arE tHe GReAteSt hERoEs'.
I was gone and had taken my autistic laser focus off GW by the time they released those childrens books. Holy shit. I get what you say about always needing to chase a new customer base, but that more than any other boneheaded decision by GW made me think they're starting to forget what their point even is. It's like Instagram changing to short videos only because Tiktok.

Don't they understand that the 'pew pew boom fuck you mom and dad' edgelordliness is what kids eat up?

Dude was throwing what was probably the biggest bitch fit in table top history and people forgot. If he did it now the man would be rightfully ridiculed and bullied.

I do remember some tutting in places, but it was mostly people using him as an example of those ahem 'entrenched nerds' who refused to fall in love with AoS.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

I got interested in 40K during 3rd ed, early 2000s, about the same time that the Tau turned up. They themselves the latest 'how do you do fellow kids' attempt to jump on a pop-cultural bandwagon that pissed off the old guard. I would guess that was when the satire included by bongs who took The Young Ones and 2000AD intravenously had been reined in, but before the crapsack grimdarkness started to give way to 'SpACe mArInES arE tHe GReAteSt hERoEs'.

The Tau was Games Workshop's attempt to make money off the anime crowd in the early 2000s, when anime such as Gundam and DBZ were taking the west by storm.

The Space Marine = Heroes thing is way too much like Warcraft. Reminds me too much of WoW Paladins who wore big shoulderpads, used hammers and holy magic, and were definitively good guys as opposed to the Space Marines of old who were self-deluded morons supporting a regime based on superstition:

"To me the background to 40K was always intended to be ironic. The fact that the Space Marines were lauded as heroes within Games Workshop always amused me, because they're brutal, but they're also completely self-deceiving. The whole idea of the Emperor is that you don't know whether he's alive or dead. The whole Imperium might be running on superstition. There's no guarantee that the Emperor is anything other than a corpse with a residual mental ability to direct spacecraft. It's got some parallels with religious beliefs and principles, and I think a lot of that got missed and overwritten."

Rick Priestley, Warhammer 40K author, in a December 2015 interview from Unplugged Games:

Blood, dice and darkness: how Warhammer defined gaming for a generation

For decades, Warhammer has been one of the most enduring forces in all of gaming. In an unprecedented in-depth interview, we spoke to its co-creator Rick Priestley about its origins, development an…

web.archive.org

I was long gone and had taken my autistic laser focus off GW by the time they released those childrens books. Holy shit. I get what you say about always needing to chase a new customer base, but that more than any other boneheaded decision by GW made me think they're starting to forget what their point even is. It's like Instagram changing to short videos only because Tiktok.

GW knows that the point is to just make money. And if one looks at their stock value, they're winning.

Don't they understand that the 'pew pew boom fuck you mom and dad' edgelordliness is what kids eat up?

Not according to their profit margins, it ain't. Kids love validation and fighting the good fight, and edgelordiness always takes a back seat to winning as the good guys and feeling good about it. Every franchise owner that made a fortune selling stuff to kids, from the owners of Pokemon to Star Wars, know that, and GW, in appealing to kids and going with straight-up, good-vs-evil stories, have done well for themselves financially:

Games Workshop Group PLC, GAW:LSE financials - FT.com

Games Workshop Group PLC (GAW:LSE) financials, including income statements, growth rates, balance sheets and cash flow information.

markets.ft.com

Their profit margins have been rising since 2017, even as the fans got pissy over 8th Edition, the Primaris Marines, the lore changes with Marneus Calgar, and Warhammer Adventures being released. They made a killing in the Year of Our Lord, 2021. This despite pissing off the fans left and right. They made far more money pissing off the fans than they did when they were in lockstep with the fans. So if telling the fans to go FUCK THEMSELVES and appealing to kids will get them more money, that's what GW will do. The edgelord fans were only a means to an end, and that end was making money. If another group or demographic can rake in more cash for them, then appeasing them to get at their wallets will be GW's top priority.

 

[Newman's Lovechild]

There should be a 'depressing' forum rating.

 

[CryoRevival #SJ-112]

The fans are such shitty people with so little going on in their lives they make warhammer factions their identity. We've all met the "Space wolves player" or the "Ork player" and you know them even at a distance. They will never give up on their personas

To be fair, taking on those tribal elements is a fun way to engage with prettymuch any IP hobby as it gives you a tribal basis to interact in the community and the lore.

Nerd discussions about basically anything from who wins in x vs y to discussing.. i dunno.. tau tax policy, is always just more fun (though no less autistic) with that kind of basis.

Ofcourse the no lifers and the people that take it too far are always going to ruin stuff like that for everyone, but its unfair to denounce the good fun of that tribal identification out of hand.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

To be fair, taking on those tribal elements is a fun way to engage with prettymuch any IP hobby as it gives you a tribal basis to interact in the community and the lore.

Nerd discussions about basically anything from who wins in x vs y to discussing.. i dunno.. tau tax policy, is always just more fun (though no less autistic) with that kind of basis.

Ofcourse the no lifers and the people that take it too far are always going to ruin stuff like that for everyone, but its unfair to denounce the good fun of that tribal identification out of hand.

The problem is, people inevitably take it too far. The Mandalorian fanboys in the 2000s did so, and many 40K Space Marine fans also went off the deep end. They're the ones who react the worst to any perceived "betrayal", from TCW retconning some of lore about the Mandalorians, to the Primaris Marines showing up and being stronger, faster, and better than the old marines that people have been fans of for decades. GW did that to make sure people will buy the new models, and that the newer fans will ignore buying older marine armies from third-hand sources and instead buy Primaris Marines from the GW stores instead. They ignored how the fanbase would react to their beloved Space Marines becoming second banana to some newbies.

At least in Halo, they made it so that Spartan-3s and 4s were weaker than Spartan-2s, so as to not butt in on the glory of the older Spartan-2s that people have been fans of for years.

 

[Dynamic]

GW has never changed it's market, it's always aimed at 10-16 year old boys with 40k. Each generation wants different things so it's side stepped into that role. They stole ideas from every where they could and adapted how they present them to each generation. 80-90's wannabe punks got cool stuff and safe satire the BBC would have been happy to air. 90-00 kids got edgy grunge 40k with the fluff presenting it's self as serious and full of deep edgy novels. 10-20s kids want super heroes so they get new and improved super hero space marines. The man children hanging on to the past are relics GW don't care about, they're going to buy stuff any way.

The problem is, people inevitably take it too far. The Mandalorian fanboys in the 2000s did so, and many 40K Space Marine fans also went off the deep end. They're the ones who react the worst to any perceived "betrayal", from TCW retconning some of lore about the Mandalorians, to the Primaris Marines showing up and being stronger, faster, and better than the old marines that people have been fans of for decades. GW did that to make sure people will buy the new models, and that the newer fans will ignore buying older marine armies from third-hand sources and instead buy Primaris Marines from the GW stores instead. They ignored how the fanbase would react to their beloved Space Marines becoming second banana to some newbies.

At least in Halo, they made it so that Spartan-3s and 4s were weaker than Spartan-2s, so as to not butt in on the glory of the older Spartan-2s that people have been fans of for a decade.

343 made every Spartan after 2 an annoying asshole so no one could step on any ones toes. Then they messed up Chief's personality and lowered his value. Bungie during their peak was starting to suffer from celebrity worship and hiring film actors to voice minor characters. You can see 343 taking some of those people and making them Spartans as a Bungie style move since it's the obvious conclusion to hiring such expensive talent. May as well make them the iconic heroes instead of random Elites or ODSTs.

To be fair, taking on those tribal elements is a fun way to engage with prettymuch any IP hobby as it gives you a tribal basis to interact in the community and the lore.

Nerd discussions about basically anything from who wins in x vs y to discussing.. i dunno.. tau tax policy, is always just more fun (though no less autistic) with that kind of basis.

Ofcourse the no lifers and the people that take it too far are always going to ruin stuff like that for everyone, but its unfair to denounce the good fun of that tribal identification out of hand.

You listed most of the stuff I can't stand from nerds. I never get involved in power level discussions and I don't interact with fanboys telling me how cool Orks are or why their awful model fits the Ork's lore. When you make a commercial product part of your identity you're already beyond redemption. If your identity is "model builder" or "chair maker" it's fine. If it's "Ultramarine player" then you're a fanboy not someone with a hobby. There are 40k factions I like and have old collections of but I don't identify with them or write posts on /tg/ saying Chaos did nothing wrong. I am a tabletop gamer with a Chaos army, I'm not a Chaos tribalist". I'm sure GW have shit all over Chaos's lore in the HH novels but I don't have a tribal attachment to my models enough to care. I'm still going to play them and still remember the fluff I like, the color scheme I like and use them with that in mind.

 

[CryoRevival #SJ-112]

The problem is, people inevitably take it too far. The Mandalorian fanboys in the 2000s did so, and many 40K Space Marine fans also went off the deep end. They're the ones who react the worst to any perceived "betrayal", from TCW retconning a lot of lore about the Mandalorians, to the Primaris Marines showing up and being stronger, faster, and better than the old marines that people have been fans of for decades. GW did that to make sure people will buy the new models, and that the newer fans will ignore buying older marine armies from third-hand sources and instead buy Primaris Marines from the GW stores instead. They ignored how the fanbase would react to their beloved Space Marines becoming second banana to some newbies.

At least in Halo, they made it so that Spartan-3s and 4s were weaker than Spartan-2s, so as to not butt in on the glory of the older Spartans that people have been fans of fo

In terms of the betrayal mindset, I think that Jim Cornette was very prescient when he said that when the fans dont hate the heel but hate the company for delivering the heel like this, theres been a major fuck up. But ofcourse at the same time, the people who cant let go of Boba Fetts origin story from 3 origin stories ago need to take a look at themselves and try to just enjoy the hobby. As IPs age, you always get a mix of fans holding too tight and companies changing things too fast.

When you make a commercial product part of your identity you're already beyond redemption. If your identity is "model builder" or "chair maker" it's fine. If it's "Ultramarine player" then you're a fanboy not someone with a hobby.

I will be honest, I have never met gotten to know anyone for whom the tribal identity got to that level, always has been just something people play up for fun a few hours a week when they play, and are a regular (if quite autistic, we are talking about tabletop games here) person outside that.

I don't doubt they exist, I just haven't met anyone for whom a cornerstone of their identity is a scifi plastic marketing gimmick IP.

I will say though, like everything else on the internet, because thats all they talk about online doesnt mean thats all their life is about. I only use my kitchen to cook. If you could only see me while im in my kitchen, you would think all I do in life is cook and eat. Again, I agree those people are out there, but confirmation bias makes it seem a lot more common than it is.

 

[Dynamic]

In terms of the betrayal mindset, I think that Jim Cornette was very prescient when he said that when the fans dont hate the heel but hate the company for delivering the heel like this, theres been a major fuck up. But ofcourse at the same time, the people who cant let go of Boba Fetts origin story from 3 origin stories ago need to take a look at themselves and try to just enjoy the hobby. As IPs age, you always get a mix of fans holding too tight and companies changing things too fast.


I will be honest, I have never met gotten to know anyone for whom the tribal identity got to that level, always has been just something people play up for fun a few hours a week when they play, and are a regular (if quite autistic, we are talking about tabletop games here) person outside that.

I don't doubt they exist, I just haven't met anyone for whom a cornerstone of their identity is a scifi plastic marketing gimmick IP.

I will say though, like everything else on the internet, because thats all they talk about online doesnt mean thats all their life is about. I only use my kitchen to cook. If you could only see me while im in my kitchen, you would think all I do in life is cook and eat. Again, I agree those people are out there, but confirmation bias makes it seem a lot more common than it is.

When tabletop companies were using fans to promote games they were every where. You would see Press Gangers making warmahordes their whole identity. Magic players do it regularly too. D&D nerds used to be infamous for going "How do you do, let me tell you about my character". If you haven't met them you haven't been in public venues enough.

 

[CryoRevival #SJ-112]

When tabletop companies were using fans to promote games they were every where. You would see Press Gangers making warmahordes their whole identity. Magic players do it regularly too. D&D nerds used to be infamous for going "How do you do, let me tell you about my character". If you haven't met them you haven't been in public venues enough.

I dunno dude, sounds like you're equating the people who go to the nerd venue to talk about the nerd thing for their alotted nerd time with their nerd friends to the guy who lies awake for hours every night since 2009, seething that Dr Manhatans dick wasn't big enough in the Watchmen movie.

 

[Newman's Lovechild]

I was into tyranids. I can't say I identified with the infected cult preaching about the coming liberation, not realising they'd be devoured by their liberators, but I can sure identify it more and more.