Game of Thrones Thread

What you're describing is breach of contract
I'm pretty sure the legal defense against breath deprivating scene would be easy to do.

But the reputational damage is just an instant career ender. Only few actors can get away with "diva behaviour" and some of the mildest disagreeableness would fall under that.
Actors are already preselected for doing whatever it takes. The casting process and constant rejection takes care of that.

This is a relatable video for actors;
 
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While I don't entirely disagree with your points (I tend toward Woody Allen's assessment, "The physical labor actors do wouldn't tax a fetus"), this is really oversimplifying things. What you're describing is breach of contract, and actors can be sued right out of the profession if they do it. Look into how Kim Basinger's career nearly crashed and burned because she pulled out of Boxing Helena on the grounds it was sick amputee porn.
I'm fully aware of that, but I consider working in a different field (ie: not acting) as perfectly acceptable as an alternative to being an actress if acting is too much to ask for.
Many people quit their job and do something completely unrelated. It's not unique or special in acting to quit for shitty work conditions.

And I still maintain: Being tied to a table (we really don't know how legit the manacles were, for all we know she could just slip right out of them) might not be super pleasant, but getting a bit of liquid splashed in your face... for fuck's sake, every single person in this thread that got dipped under the water by their friends in their youth has suffered worse.
 
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The way it's been going, the Song of Ice and Fire brand would just eventually fizzle out into irrelevance. The ASOIAF diehards like Dragon Demands will blame the TV show and D&D for it, but in the end, we all know the culprit will be GRRM, for refusing to finish the mainline series.

I mean, come on, book 5 came out in 2011, right before the TV show had its first season. The series should have been done by the time Season 5 rolled around.

A lingering thought has been bothering me ever since I noted that GRRM stopped writing novels for the mainline story the moment the TV show hit a goldmine. ASOIAF was designed by GRRM to be something that's so grand, it's unfilmable, and he shot down several offers to make movies out of his books before agreeing to let D&D make the show with HBO. It was obvious by their inexperience that he expected the show to flop. But the moment it became a best-seller, he stopped writing for the mainline books and started writing prequels and lore books.

Did he stop writing books for the mainline series out of spite?

I mean, it can't just be mere laziness, he had the energy to write prequels and lore books, and even work with HBO on more spinoff series. So clearly, he's not too tired to work.

And yet the last book for the mainline series came out in 2011. It's 2021, TEN YEARS LATER, and that fabled sixth book has yet to show itself. GRRM has produced prequels like Dunk and Egg, as well as lorebooks, and he's working on spinoffs with HBO. But is he holding off on finishing the mainline series, because someone managed to film what he made to be unfilmable?

Either that, or is it just a case of writer's block where he doesn't know how to end it?
 
Either that, or is it just a case of writer's block where he doesn't know how to end it?
My theory is that he had writer's blocks, but a few general ideas and then decided that he would use the show to float them out and then finetune them when the book came out, but he got fucked by

1) the two assholes who decided they were going to finish the season right away instead of extending it another 5 seasons as GRRM and HBO thought they would and
2) the public shat all over his dumb fucking ideas so now he's painted himself in a corner because he can't move too far from where the show ended and he has to make it work

So he's both assmad and rich so at this point he's just working on random shit and other cash cows until inspiration strikes and he's able to repolish his tarnished legacy
 
My theory is that he had writer's blocks, but a few general ideas and then decided that he would use the show to float them out and then finetune them when the book came out, but he got fucked by

1) the two assholes who decided they were going to finish the season right away instead of extending it another 5 seasons as GRRM and HBO thought they would and
2) the public shat all over his dumb fucking ideas so now he's painted himself in a corner because he can't move too far from where the show ended and he has to make it work

So he's both assmad and rich so at this point he's just working on random shit and other cash cows until inspiration strikes and he's able to repolish his tarnished legacy
That used to be my theory too, until I figured out that he hasn't written a book for the mainline series ever since 2011. With the rate that he's been writing prequels and lore books, he should have finished the mainline series by 2015, long before D&D decided to rush things in Seasons 7 and 8.
 
That used to be my theory too, until I figured out that he hasn't written a book for the mainline series ever since 2011. With the rate that he's been writing prequels and lore books, he should have finished the mainline series by 2015, long before D&D decided to rush things in Seasons 7 and 8.

Nah, according to google, both the 5th book and the first season of GoT started within a couple of months from each others, which means that he had been working on both for at least a year+ prior. My guess is that he thought those 5 books were enough material for almost 10 season on their own, so basically if he used the next 5-6 years to write the next book by the time the crew had a copy and started to work on the future episodes he'd have a few more years in order to finish the last book.

Then he got a combination of writer's block plus having money shoveled at him for anything related to GoT so he started to concentrate on other projects which made his writer's block worse and desire to work on the 6th book even lower and then he got sideswiped by the creator's decision that 'fuck it three more seasons and we're do, we doin star wars nigga'.

He probably thought he had enough material for like, 15 seasons (2 or so per book)

As a side note: This nigga has released 8 books since his last GoT book lmao
 
I don't think it's writer's block but just the realization that any more books are just superfluous. Basically every future even is either already set up in the five books (John's heritage, Dany's insanity) or can be derived by popular literary tropes (Bran becoming king). It's better to just leave the setting as some mystery box that will break new grounds than releasing a book that's completely uninteresting and will break what the series in "known" for (ie, edgy subversion).

The live action show did have surprises but they were either from cutting source material and badly improvising, or doing shit for twitter asspats.
 
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I don't think it's necessarily writer's block either, more like he's doesn't really know how to tie the whole mess of the plot in only two books. IICR, the most difficult plot for him to actually move on was Dany's and what's she's now doing in Essos: she can't just abandon all the cities to their fate because that's not a good image for when she goes back to Westeros (double funny considering current day events...)
 
Maybe he should just make it so that Dany decides to stay. *shrug*

For a guy who is all about letting things go organically, the stall being he can't figure out how or why Dany would abandon Essos is a really shitty excuse.
 
Yeah, he has a problem with writers block a lot- I think because of all the stuff he adds in tends to serve a purpose, and it gets really tangled. I think he was talking with Stephen King on a show in like...2016(?) and he basically compared the writer's block metaphorically to really bad constipation.
 
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I don't think it's necessarily writer's block either, more like he's doesn't really know how to tie the whole mess of the plot in only two books. IICR, the most difficult plot for him to actually move on was Dany's and what's she's now doing in Essos: she can't just abandon all the cities to their fate because that's not a good image for when she goes back to Westeros (double funny considering current day events...)
It's such an easy fix.
-Dany quells the slaver uprising with her dragons
-Dany is settling into peacetime ruling but grows bored (hinting at her bloodthirstyness)
-She gets word of how the people Westeros is being endlessly ravaged by the endless wars by the petty false rulers
-She sets off to free them and take back what is rightfully hers
-She leaves whoeverthefuck in charge of the cities of Essos as a vassal
 
It's such an easy fix.
-Dany quells the slaver uprising with her dragons
-Dany is settling into peacetime ruling but grows bored (hinting at her bloodthirstyness)
-She gets word of how the people Westeros is being endlessly ravaged by the endless wars by the petty false rulers
-She sets off to free them and take back what is rightfully hers
-She leaves whoeverthefuck in charge of the cities of Essos as a vassal

You can even make it that just as she's about to get to Westeros the people she left behind betrayed her and she can still come back and salvage her kingdom and re-assert her rule but she goes 'Nah fuck it I'd rather control Westeros and get my throne back' to show she really just loves to burn shit up and conquer people and doesn't really care about liberating them or anything like that she's just after power and killing people if you need to broadcast her batshit bloodlust even harder
 
Personally believe the storyline of A sSong of Ice and Fire has grown too big for him. Those Dunk and Egg books are more simple stories which are streamlined. Those books must be easier to write for him. He needs help with the writing. Trouble is that he wont seek it at all.
 
George is in a no win situation. Some random thoughts.

1) He is a bit lazy, but as someone above said, that didn't stop him from finishing other projects.

2) His moment passed when he did not finish the book series before the TV show ended

3) I do believe at a certain point he sat back and watched to see what worked and, more importantly, didn't work in the TV show.

4) Anything that more or less follows the TV show is going to be underwhelming to readers. Yet he probably feels slighted to have to change things just because it was in the show. If his vision for the ending was at all like the TV show he has to retool it. He has to start laying the groundwork for a different one. That would explain some of the delay over the last 2 years.

5) Completely different era now with #metoo. He probably is having to make sure that nothing "offensive" makes it into the book. This is particularly satisfying to me because he cheered and voted for all this shit. I hope it's caused him quite a bit of trouble in his writing. He deserves it, just like he deserved being "canceled" at that con a few years back.

6) Even if he finished this book there's still one more. That will never get finished by him. Fat jokes aside, now we're dealing with basic biology and aging. Reading the series now would pretty much just be an excercise in masochism.
 
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It's such an easy fix.
-Dany quells the slaver uprising with her dragons
-Dany is settling into peacetime ruling but grows bored (hinting at her bloodthirstyness)
-She gets word of how the people Westeros is being endlessly ravaged by the endless wars by the petty false rulers
-She sets off to free them and take back what is rightfully hers
-She leaves whoeverthefuck in charge of the cities of Essos as a vassal
One problem you have is that it was always planned for Daenerys to burn King's Landing. I think one of the problems the TV show had is it happened too abrupt and at a moment where she had won anyhow.
The way you could have handled it is that after she takes control Meereen it becomes a mess like in the show and books. It becomes clear that there's resistance building up against her in Slaver's bay, and it's in secret so she can't do anything about it without using subterfuge.
You get the army and navy amassed by the slavers that attacks Meereen, Daenerys gets taken by the Dothraki, etc. etc.
When she returns to Meereen it's at the moment as the Ironborn fleet and Ser Barristan is fighting the slavers.
But before the day is over she suffers two defeats as Meereen troops supposedly loyal to Daenerys kill Barristan and the city falls mostly under the control of Meereenese nobles who rebelled as the garrison went to fight the slaver army. In the chaos the slavers even bring out weapons designed specifically to bring down dragons, now that the slavers now they'll be facing them, and kill one of the dragons.

Angered at these events Daenerys sees the whole Slaver's bay venture as a lost cause. The local rulers will never accept her as a ruler, and even a lot of the former slaves turned against her because she is a foreigner. Distraught at the situation she decides to instead turn her attention at Westeros as originally planned, she now as the fleet of Victorian Greyjoy to cross the sea, and gives the citizens of Meereen a choice, come with her to Westeros, or burn with Meereen.
It's now not as sudden as the burning of King's Landing, she even give the people a choice of where their loyalty lies, so people won't just instantly see Daenerys as a butcherer. They're also slavers and have been working against the protagonists from the beginning. But it's also a morally dubious action, and foreshadows Daenerys's increased propensity towards violence and destruction as a final solution.
In the end Meereen is burned to the ground by the dragons, with most of the nobles and the part of the population who chose not to board the ships heading for Westeros or flee into the wilderness.
 
One problem you have is that it was always planned for Daenerys to burn King's Landing. I think one of the problems the TV show had is it happened too abrupt and at a moment where she had won anyhow.
The way you could have handled it is that after she takes control Meereen it becomes a mess like in the show and books. It becomes clear that there's resistance building up against her in Slaver's bay, and it's in secret so she can't do anything about it without using subterfuge.
You get the army and navy amassed by the slavers that attacks Meereen, Daenerys gets taken by the Dothraki, etc. etc.
When she returns to Meereen it's at the moment as the Ironborn fleet and Ser Barristan is fighting the slavers.
But before the day is over she suffers two defeats as Meereen troops supposedly loyal to Daenerys kill Barristan and the city falls mostly under the control of Meereenese nobles who rebelled as the garrison went to fight the slaver army. In the chaos the slavers even bring out weapons designed specifically to bring down dragons, now that the slavers now they'll be facing them, and kill one of the dragons.

Angered at these events Daenerys sees the whole Slaver's bay venture as a lost cause. The local rulers will never accept her as a ruler, and even a lot of the former slaves turned against her because she is a foreigner. Distraught at the situation she decides to instead turn her attention at Westeros as originally planned, she now as the fleet of Victorian Greyjoy to cross the sea, and gives the citizens of Meereen a choice, come with her to Westeros, or burn with Meereen.
It's now not as sudden as the burning of King's Landing, she even give the people a choice of where their loyalty lies, so people won't just instantly see Daenerys as a butcherer. They're also slavers and have been working against the protagonists from the beginning. But it's also a morally dubious action, and foreshadows Daenerys's increased propensity towards violence and destruction as a final solution.
In the end Meereen is burned to the ground by the dragons, with most of the nobles and the part of the population who chose not to board the ships heading for Westeros or flee into the wilderness.
There's still a way to make Dany burn King's Landing instead of making it Meereen instead, but the show axed the fake Aegon plotline entirely, even though he's probably going to be the one on the Iron Throne when she does it. Burning down the city to depose an unpopular despot/because bells trigger your Targaryen madness is stupid. Burning down a city when you finally make it there, only to find your supposed nephew on the throne, having already deposed Cersei, and being way more popular than you with your weird eastern mysticism and barbaric army, makes a lot more sense.
GRRM's real trouble is every time he faces an obstacle figuring out the next steps for any of the 3 main characters (Jon, Dany, Tyrion), he either introduces a new setting or places an existing side character in one and massively increase the scope of the story. He did it three times in each of the last two books: Dorne, the Iron Islands, and Brienne's Riverlands adventure in book 4, and then putting Sam in Oldtown, Arya in Braavos, and Davos with the northern lords in book 5. I believe a huge part of why ADWD ends on a double cliffhanger is he is completely stuck on how to get all these pieces together after both the northern and Meereenese battles are done with.
 
Maybe he should just make it so that Dany decides to stay. *shrug*

For a guy who is all about letting things go organically, the stall being he can't figure out how or why Dany would abandon Essos is a really shitty excuse.
Alternatively, he could also have her decide that Westeros is a shitshow that she can do without for the time being... so she sets out to reestablish Valyria, while maintaining her claim to the Iron Throne, so her heirs can eventually go back to Westeros and fuck shit up with their own Essos armies, like in the good old days.

Or R'hlor gives her a vision and she goes to Westeros to fuck shit up, cause the walking dead are coming - only this time they aren't taking out by a REEEEEEEEEEEEing ninja quasimodo.
 
The way it's been going, the Song of Ice and Fire brand would just eventually fizzle out into irrelevance. The ASOIAF diehards like Dragon Demands will blame the TV show and D&D for it, but in the end, we all know the culprit will be GRRM, for refusing to finish the mainline series.

I mean, come on, book 5 came out in 2011, right before the TV show had its first season. The series should have been done by the time Season 5 rolled around.

A lingering thought has been bothering me ever since I noted that GRRM stopped writing novels for the mainline story the moment the TV show hit a goldmine. ASOIAF was designed by GRRM to be something that's so grand, it's unfilmable, and he shot down several offers to make movies out of his books before agreeing to let D&D make the show with HBO. It was obvious by their inexperience that he expected the show to flop. But the moment it became a best-seller, he stopped writing for the mainline books and started writing prequels and lore books.

Did he stop writing books for the mainline series out of spite?

I mean, it can't just be mere laziness, he had the energy to write prequels and lore books, and even work with HBO on more spinoff series. So clearly, he's not too tired to work.

And yet the last book for the mainline series came out in 2011. It's 2021, TEN YEARS LATER, and that fabled sixth book has yet to show itself. GRRM has produced prequels like Dunk and Egg, as well as lorebooks, and he's working on spinoffs with HBO. But is he holding off on finishing the mainline series, because someone managed to film what he made to be unfilmable?

Either that, or is it just a case of writer's block where he doesn't know how to end it?
Personally I think he's just no longer invested in it. Winds has a lot of problems in terms of getting plots completed and characters where they need to be for the finale, and he already had to deal with that once in Dance.

There's also the ridiculous pressure, Winds was at one point probably one of the most hyped books of the century, and that pressure has to have gotten to him.

Also fact is it may just be too complex for him to keep track of. There's the main ice zombie plot, the Dany plot, Tyrion's plot, the stark kids, Dorne and Jaimie, Cersei, the fake Aegon, Stannis, and Lady Stoneheart.

He has to somehow weave all these plot threads in a coherent and skillful fashion, while also setting up a finale that I believe he has an ending for(if its even 50% the same as the show's I can see why he'd have given up) and also maintain his standard quality as a writer.

I don't think he'll ever publicly admit to giving up, but I do think he has in fact given up.
 
Personally I think he's just no longer invested in it. Winds has a lot of problems in terms of getting plots completed and characters where they need to be for the finale, and he already had to deal with that once in Dance.
He's been cold on it ever since 2011. Winds of Winter should have come out in 2013 or 2014, and the final book should have come out in 2017, earliest. He stopped getting involved when the show was still reaching its stride. The peak of the show was in 2014 when the fourth season came out, he should have finished Winds of Winter by then.

There's also the ridiculous pressure, Winds was at one point probably one of the most hyped books of the century, and that pressure has to have gotten to him.
That pressure used to exist, especially after the last season of the show crashed and burned, but now, there's just apathy. No one cares anymore, outside of the diehards who still think that Martin is some kind of 4D-chess player when really, he's the lesser, hippie-modernist version of Luo Guanzhong or William Shakespeare, nowhere near the literary genius of Tolkien, or those other two authors.

Also fact is it may just be too complex for him to keep track of. There's the main ice zombie plot, the Dany plot, Tyrion's plot, the stark kids, Dorne and Jaimie, Cersei, the fake Aegon, Stannis, and Lady Stoneheart.
That's a big problem. He kept piling on plotline after plotline. There's also the Euron plotline to add to all that mess. The problem with GRRM was that there was no one to reign him in and force him to focus. It's the same problem George Lucas had when during the time when he was writing the Prequels, there was no one to tell him "no". The difference is that Lucas had an outline that he stuck to, which at least allowed him to end the Prequels on a hopeful note, whereas GRRM is just going around his world, following random plotlines, adding to the bloat of the story when he should be chopping things down and getting things to a close.

Like say, whey not have Stannis and Lady Stoneheart join forces with Petyr Baelish and the forces of the Vale? You'd unite three separate plotlines into one, and the three of them have different reasons for wanting to see the Lannisters fall: Stannis has honor, Stoneheart has vengeance, the forces of the Vale hate the Lannisters for supposedly killing Jon Arryn, and Littlefinger's a greedy little shit. That's what I'd do in his position to cut down on the fat and set up a coherent ending.

He has to somehow weave all these plot threads in a coherent and skillful fashion, while also setting up a finale that I believe he has an ending for(if its even 50% the same as the show's I can see why he'd have given up) and also maintain his standard quality as a writer.
Ideally, the sixth and seventh books should see GRRM trying to unite and conclude several different plotlines and set up the final conflict, but he's either incapable or unwilling to do that. I think the show's ending is partially based on his ending, as it does have all the elements and themes of his subversive narrative, albeit rushed to meet an artificial deadline. (In war, there are no good guys, one side's hero is another side's villain, the death caused by war outweighs all the potential good it may cause, etc..) So yeah, part of his hesitance may be due to the show being so poorly-received when it adapted his ending. If D&D had their way, Jon Snow and Dany would just win with their trademark generic good-guy talk, and they'd have just ended up mating on the Iron Throne after the deaths of Cersei and the Night King.

I don't think he'll ever publicly admit to giving up, but I do think he has in fact given up.
I've made my peace with that. Shit, I even made up my own endings from Season 5 onwards, and to me, ASOIAF can go rest in peace without me caring about what GRRM can come up with. Because unless he comes up with the mother of all literary miracles, I doubt he can even finish an ending that's as good as the endings made by the average fan-fic authors.
 
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