2018-10-28 Chargeback Twitlonger

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actually said:
Actual fraud, like the one guy who charged back like ~300-400 dollars on Phil right at the end of August or so. Otherwise, I guess you'd have to make a very persuasive argument that you didn't get what you paid for? And that's where I would expect it to fail. That's such a nebulous line when there's no physical product involved.
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i could see that, tons of evidence to prove it. begs for money but will turn around and spend it in dumbass ways, like flying khet out. and treating her and getting a new ps4 pro and 4k tv
 
ReentryPhantom said:
Under what grounds could Tut legitimately charge the money back? Imagine my surprise if he was actually able to get the money back because Phil didn't provide the service of switching to Sagat in SFV when Tut asked... Just throwing that out there, Tut....
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All Tut has to do is claim it as an unauthorized payment (like spin some bs about how his little bro or someone else tipped Phil through his Twitch account or something); he doesn't even really need to make an argument of denied service for the tip, though having this argument doesn't hurt either. The burden of proof then falls on the streamer should they decide to dispute it.

Normally smart streamers will have explicit disclaimers saying things like not being obligated to provide services for tips, and not taking money out of paypal until after the 2 mo chargeback period to cover their bases on this. Naturally, DipshitPhil does neither of these things. Also he needs to show a copy of the VOD where he got the tip among other things, but that may actually just hurt Phil since Tut had an explicit request behind the tip, but that's also Tut's fault for paying Phil in advance instead of after he actually plays Sagat.
 
This+ said:
We have to remember that most of Phil's lies and claims come from a kernal of truth or a "technical" factoid, and that he's not the type to 100% fabricate a story. One of the more egregious ones off the top of my head is him being the #1 super turbo player, which is on the technicality that he was the highest-placed US/NA player in that tournament, not overall first place.
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I think most of Phil's lies are distortions of established truths simply because he's not creative enough to invent something new. "That car came out of nowhere!" distorts for his benefit the fact there was a car in the driving game and it was coming towards him. Like your "#1 in Super Turbo" example, or "I'm intimately involved with a women now, so we're soulmates". They don't have to rely on technicalities.

It's understood tutankhamunnn did donate suspicious amounts of money, and then he turned on Phil. Phil then aligned this with his narrative of a life of victimhood. It's not a technical engineering of facts. It's just a child-like lie, if that makes sense.

ReentryPhantom said:
Under what grounds could Tut legitimately charge the money back? Imagine my surprise if he was actually able to get the money back because Phil didn't provide the service of switching to Sagat in SFV when Tut asked... Just throwing that out there, Tut....
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The money donated on August 29 for Phil to play Sagat in SFV was only attributed to tut. @actually pointed out that he'd only been in chat for four seconds and never wrote anything. tut later claimed his innocence for the charge-back after Phil defamed him on Twitter.
 
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I'm sure someone has already written this a hundred times on Kiwi but I feel it should be restated here:

Phil knows there is no crisis but will exploit it for more green. Every crisis has the same beats.

1. A small problem arises.
2. Phil freaks out and talks about it anytime he can.
3. Fans donate hundreds of dollars over it.
4. Problem gets solved. Ack Ack Ack.

And they fall for it every...single...time.
 
I guess we'll find out more tomorrow when DSP does his usual 2 hour pre-stream, but I think the odds are in his favor. More often than not, PayPal sides with whoever makes the dispute as long as they can supply the barest minimum of proof. Even if you aren't purchasing and were just sending money to a friend, which is most likely what Tut classified it as to avoid PayPal's transaction fee, you can generally dispute it and just say you accidentally put in the wrong amount or the payment somehow processed twice.

One of the few situations where PayPal is unlikely to side with you is when you have a history of making payments to someone and now out of the blue you're claiming the most recent payments are invalid. If there were some sort of product attached to it, Tut could use that as evidence to support his claim, but without that, Tut doesn't have much of a case. If anything, it might even raise some red flags to whoever is investigating it and thinks there's some sort of scam going on.

It largely depends on how much/how frequently Tut sent Phil money. It also depends on how much Tut pushes it. If he gets through the automated hoops and actually speaks with a real person then it's up in the air depending on how much work the person feels like doing, as well as what Phil does to dispute the claim. But, I wouldn't be surprised if it boils down to a repeated cycle of asking Tut to provide evidence of failed delivery, and given that Tut isn't the most articulate person in the world, I don't know if he'd do a decent job explaining himself. Even if he does, if he brings up anything Twitch related, they'll probably just tell him to take it up with Twitch just to get him off the line.

Regarding any sort of stream evidence, no customer service rep is going to care about that, especially not someone who isn't affiliated with Twitch. In terms of our general amusement, I think the best case scenario is PayPal temporarily suspends both of their accounts while they look into the claim. This is outside my general PayPal experience, but I've heard over the last few months they've gotten more vigilant with going after suspicious accounts, with tipping setting off a lot of automated red flags. Before, if you jumped through a few hoops and actually spoke with a person, they were pretty quick about restoring your account, but they might have gotten stricter about it in recent months.
 
I genuinely wonder if Phil will report him to twitch and try to get him permabaned from the platform. Banning him from the chat is one thing. But him having the option to PM people he knew in the community. I don't think phil will like that very much. I don't know how good it looks for him that all his major contributors just magically disappear when they have an argument with him. But time will tell.
 
I think it's worth nothing that Tut never said Twitch was giving him his money back, but that Visa was. To me this implies that Visa is just going to eat the charges (since they can't get refunded back from Twitch) or there's some kind of back end deal with payment processors and Twitch to mitigate these costs somehow.
 
Inm very skeptic and I actually dont believe him but...

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Gifted subs aren’t refundable through Twitch... But maybe Visa was willing to eat the charge and get his money back? Fuck if I know. Tut is a sad, strange man and anyone who thought he was legit is a moron. Phil included, because lest we forget, he welcomed him to streams quite a bit and gave him tons of attention... Until he wasn't getting it anymore.
 
Has Phil responded to any of this yet? I would think he'd be REEEEEEE'ing all over the place if he actually did lose all that money.
 
SoapQueen1 said:
Visa (or any other issuer) has a lot of pull in reversing transactions. It's not like they need Twitch's permission to take the money back. I don't think Twitch will take it back from DSP regardless.
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Exactly. Some combination of Twitch/Paypal/Visa is going to eat the charge and both Tut and DSP keep the Cheer/Sub money.

He might win the tips though.
 
Destro1986 said:
Exactly. Some combination of Twitch/Paypal/Visa is going to eat the charge and both Tut and DSP keep the Cheer/Sub money.

He might win the tips though.
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I don't know man. If Visa reverses the charges then Twitch still has like a month to decide whether they want to eat a $4K loss for DSP. I don't know why Twitch would pay him that money, seems like a really bad fucking precedent to set to me. We'll just have to wait and see. In the case of actual fraud I think it's a CC companies insurance that eats the charge, in the case of a reverse transaction then it would be up to Twitch to either eat the loss or not. Is it worth $4K to Twitch to try to keep up the illusion of integrity on digital sticker purchases in DSP's chat? I just don't see what they are losing by not paying Dave and letting people keep the access to their gifted pixels.
 
I remember years ago a story about chargebacks against twitch when you get banned. One for riot games too. Apparently it worked so well they deleted threads and talk died down quickly. But i remembered it because it was based on bans and bans stopping people from getting to things they paid for.

Wouldnt surprise me if there was something to it.
 
Prince Lotor said:
I don't know man. If Visa reverses the charges then Twitch still has like a month to decide whether they want to eat a $4K loss for DSP. I don't know why Twitch would pay him that money, seems like a really bad fucking precedent to set to me. We'll just have to wait and see. In the case of actual fraud I think it's a CC companies insurance that eats the charge, in the case of a reverse transaction then it would be up to Twitch to either eat the loss or not. Is it worth $4K to Twitch to try to keep up the illusion of integrity on digital sticker purchases in DSP's chat? I just don't see what they are losing by not paying Dave and letting people keep the access to their gifted pixels.
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If it gets out that you can gift a shitload of subs and then turn around and charge it back? Prepare for maximum trolling. Twitch doesn't want to open that bag of shit for someone like DSP. $4k is couch change for them.
 
Just since I have had my credit card stolen at one point. This is how it works. It's whoever that verifies the transaction that gets burned. If it was used in a taxi and the thief signed for it. The taxi driver confirmed the transaction and he will not get the money. Phil didn't verify anything so he is out of the picture completely. It's Paypal that is responsible for verifying the transaction. However I am sure they will deduct the money of the transaction from his account if it's wrong, and charged back. For whatever reason.

I am sorry phil. You are not a vendor that have sold anything. Tut is not in possession of anything you can get back. And he already got refunded.
 
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