Alternate History - Thing happened in real life, so what if thing NOT happened?

[Rome's rightful successor]

Greatest Alternate History question ever asked.

 

[Wot Zit Too Yah0996]

Languages do that all the time, but here we can blame the Germans the Teutonic Knights fought a bunch of wars and established themselves as the upper class and then made it more advantageous to speak a German than speak Prussian then the speakers of Prussian slowly switched to speaking German. A tale genuinely as old as time.

...Huh. I didn't know that Prussian came about because of the Teutonics.

@Lazy Printer I have a similar opinion to yours, but it's mainly about certain Gods, Demigods, Dwarves, Witches, Wizards, Warlocks, Sorcerers, Mages, and Dwarves... mainly. I'm not sure what Extraterrestrials would look like, but that makes sense, depending on the race etc.

 

[JJLiautaud]

...Huh. I didn't know that Prussian came about because of the Teutonics.

Yeah the last High Master of the Order, before the whole Reformation thing, was one Albert von Hohenzollern whose line would literally go on to reunite Germany.


What if Grenville was more accommodating and simply told the 13 Colonies you need to raise whatever amount he was hoping to raise with the intolerable acts?

 

[Zaryiu2]

I do have a question, what would happened to World History if Karl Marx never got interested in Politics and Economics? I do know a lot would change because his writings had quite the domino effect

 

[Ughubughughughughughghlug]

What if Japan did an Indonesia and Indonesia did a Japan?

 

[Ughubughughughughughghlug]

I'm going to read Cahokia Jazz. I know basically nothing about it. Page one, it has a map of the US with basically no difference except Missouri is called Cahokia (as I take it this is a setting where Mississippians were wanked, the US formed anyways but with a large Indian population like Latin America) and Deseret exists (that's original), and it was written by the dude that did Red Plenty (interesting idea for a novel, but it was very boring).

I do have a question, what would happened to World History if Karl Marx never got interested in Politics and Economics? I do know a lot would change because his writings had quite the domino effect

As I understand he was not really significant until the Bolshevik Revolution. People read some importance into him retroactively, but his contemporaries had no interest. Just happened that a particular wing of Russian revolutionaries that followed Marxism outmaneuvered the others and set the standard for what a revolutionary government looks like.

Much of what he supposedly contributed to academia isn't really that unique to him. Historical materialism as an approach existed long before him, can look at Hume and Ferguson. End of history and dialectics were common ideas before him.

The biggest thing I can see is that while any socialist/communist state will always end up looking the same regardless of what retarded ideology they name it for (see the anarchists in Spain and Ukraine creating a totalitarian state), the lack of S C I E N C E may reduce the academy's interest. You may see socialism in the West and in the arts remain associated, for far longer than historically, with unionism, utopian experiments and other such. I doubt that "cultural Marxism" really becomes a thing and you probably get a healthier environment, not because there's no socialism or totalitarianism, but because it doesn't develop into this particularly retarded and self-destructive version.

Yeah the last High Master of the Order, before the whole Reformation thing, was one Albert von Hohenzollern whose line would literally go on to reunite Germany.


What if Grenville was more accommodating and simply told the 13 Colonies you need to raise whatever amount he was hoping to raise with the intolerable acts?

To the Revolutionaries the real causes were opposition to taxation without representation, mercantilism and the violations of civil liberties (everything Britain was doing violated a sort of unofficial constitution the British had long lived under). Changing the form of taxation won't change the underlying principle. If the Colonies comply it avoids revolution since there's no British Crown violating civil liberties (note that these colonies were, as I understand, lead by their own people; I could be wrong but I think that when the Revolution broke out the legislatures just sacked their royal governors, there was a continuity of government). But if the Colonies refuse, and that's very, very likely, then you ultimately wind up with the same situation. What can Grenville do but collect the tax directly?

Long term I do not see a world where the Colonies don't push for independence de facto if not de jure.

I don’t think then 18th century system will endure indefinitely. A lot of the military reforms for example were already in existence(if only in theory) and industrialization would lead to mass destabilization.

But if you head off the French Revolution, you head off so many things. At least for a long time.

Modern conservatism in the Burkean tradition never emerges, as a coherent response to the revolution, socialism-Babeuf and the Jacobins, and their heirs Hegel and Marx may never emerge or if they do it will be under vastly different circumstances. De Maistre and “reactionary” politics never develops coherently either.

The Enlightenment and anti monarchical sentiments remain parlor discussions by intellectuals, at least for another generation.

I don’t think there would be any reason for another big war in Europe in the 1790s, but I could be wrong. Conflict between the Russians and Ottomans may escalate again.

French interest in Egypt existed before the revolution(I believe once major French diplomat had actually explored the idea of a French conquest in the 1760s) but it probably doesn’t come to anything. Military reforms continue in the Ottoman Empire. Spain’s weakness is not revealed, and there is no reason why Spanish America should break away.

This isn’t to say something big won’t happen-a revolution might occur in Austria or even Britain. Or that many of the intellectual and political consequences of the French revolution would not still happen-if delayed and in another form.

I don’t think the 18th century order could survive mass industrialization and the discontent this would produce. The rise of the bourgeoisie as a class without the revolution may be less violent. Though in Europe-it may lead to violence as the aristocracy does not give way to bankers, merchants, and so on.

It’s honestly really a question of how much of history do you think is pre determined by larger impersonal forces(economic development, technology, etc…) and how much is based on contingency.

But like the rise of Islam, the French Revolution is one of those discontinuous junctures in history-from which everything before seems to fade into the background, and that which comes after is an open game.

Even delaying it a generation-could have massive ramifications for the outcome.

I’m curious though just on the military side of things if there would be last war of the 18th century, in the vain of the wars of secession of Spain and Austria.

That is a limited war fought over dynastic claims.

What if we had really cool Enlightenment-style limited war/war as sport of kings, but with modern technology?

Basically, what if we lived in Ace Combat world where countries go to war at the drop of a hat with jet fighters because it's just a big game?

 

[Ughubughughughughughghlug]

I finished Cahokia Jazz. It's good.

The book is Francis Spufford's attempt to do The Yiddish Policemen's Union. It's nowhere near as good, but that's a tall order since YPU is on a higher plane than most books. It's also a detective novel set in an alternate American city where bizarre fusion cultures are in a state of ethnic conflict with religious symbolism playing a major role.

It is probably the most bizarrely niche (aimed right at me) book I've read, and that's including Alien in a Small Town. Unfortunately, it didn't hit as hard as it should have.

Alternate History Background
In this one the setting is a Cahokia that is heavily inspired by Jesuit Paraguay and the Kingdom of Hawaii's historical experience. It's revealed bit by bit and was the main thing that interested me, but it's not really a spoiler to give away any of it. The Mississippian civilization did not fall and early on the Jesuits from New Spain made contact, leading to this Indian state buried deep in the interior surviving.

In general, Francis Spufford seems to know a ton of obscure history, so I won't attribute his choices to ignorance. That said, the whole objective of the De Soto was to find a large Indian civilization to conquer, as was Virginia. In this setting that the Mississippians were effective at repelling early conquistadors or those expeditions never took place. How the fuck does the Union tolerate an Indian state joining on its own terms? This didn't bother me at the time, but that is an EXTREMELY rosy picture of the North, particularly as they were the ones who, in the aftermath of the War, prosecuted the genocidal wars of the Great Plains.

Cahokia quickly develops an artificial Aztec-based identity with a Catholic religion, even taking in Irish refugees. By the time of the War between the States it proactively joins the Union. Also, Alaska stays Russian, Oregon stays British and Deseret exists, since this is an alternate history novel and it's obligatory.

The Indians in this novel are always good boys who dindu nuffin. In real life most of the civilized Indians sided strongly with the Confederacy and were heavily involved in slavery. In this setting, though, no reference is made to Indian slavery or Cahokia's relationship to it.

Ultimately, this leads us up to the 1920s.

The Book
Cahokia in the 1920s, a reimagined Saint Louis, is a major metropolis and industrial/railroad hub with a mixing of three peoples, White, Black and Indian. The hero is a sometimes jazz piano player who, after World War I, has gotten a detective job with a friend made in the service, but he happens to stumble into this right as a race war is getting ready to kick off. It's American Midnight, it's A Fever in the Heartland. The Ku Klux Klan is in the prime of its power and they're making big plays to subvert the government of Cahokia, an Indian republic which the House of Hashi still rules as a traditional monarchy, entirely religious/ceremonial pull. A body has turned up, a White man gutted sacrificially in the Aztec style on a roof overlooking the Cahokia Mound.

I found the prose and plotting fairly good. It's not AS good as YPU, but it's pretty strong. It really got my attention with the Klan setting, references to labor radicals and Bolsheviks fighting the Russian Civil War in Alaska, President Harding, basically a 1920s setting that I have a huge interest in (rural American clash of socialism and proto-fascism) mixed with Indians (which already, historically, mixed in things like the Green Corn Rebellion).

Spufford never makes any reference to the Green Corn Rebellion or an alternate history counterpart to it, which seems like a very obvious thing to do.

I won't describe the plot, being what it is that could only spoil it. It's just executed competently. Well done. It takes a while for the characters to emerge as real people, but they do, especially at the very end. Compared to YPU it's a lot more high-stakes and political right from the get go, the significance of this murder is implied almost right off the bat and the threat of a Klan insurrection looms over the whole story. On the other hand, the city never quite felt like a real place. To some extent that's because of just how exotic it is, but Spufford just doesn't paint his picture all that well.

The ending bummed me out. These stories never have happy endings. The hero can save themselves, save the girl, save the city, you always have some kind of conflict like that and something gets sacrificed. I don't mind a sad ending, but there's an uncomfortable middle ground where it's decent enough that I do care but not so good that it's rich, if that makes sense? Written well enough to be genuinely sad without being moving enough to make the sad feel meaningful. Cruel.

 

[Ishtar]

Time travel idea-reading Michael Z Williamson’s a long time until now book.

An American company in 2019 Afghanistan with about 50 civilian contractors attached is sent back in time to around 326 BC. They have about a dozen Humvees, one Abrams tank and two Apache helicopters all with full load outs and maximum fuel.

They end up meeting Alexander not far from modern Kabul as he campaigns to the northeast.

Someone being a history nerd recognizes where and when they are-and informs the CO-the Americans spy on the Greek army and then decide to make contact.

With no way to return home, the Americans attach themselves to the Macedonian host, and meet Alexander. Eventually getting past the language barrier.

And then endeavor to change the course of history…(likely with American medical expertise keeping Alexander from dying in Babylon).

 

[winderson_silva]

I really liked the Shikaku-Mon scenario on Gurps Alternate Earths 1, the unique stuff with a catholic japan ruling half the world, Sweden as a decaying totalitarian nightmare, a megacorp brazil and France keeping their independence through tech is real cool

But I find really funny that explicitly, women are second class citizens on most of the world, while in the Caliph scenario on Alternate Earths 2, they are on equal terms with men in a Islamic majority world

Hmmm...

I found the Reich 5 one kinda interesting for their Burgundy, basically, Hitler just dumps whoever is too esoteric there, and with Himmiler dying in 1951, Burgundy is basically just a laarp resort where people go to see these wackos of the SS

 

[Black Man Underwear]

What would be Hong Kong's status if the Axis won WW2? Japanese possession? Puppet state? Fascist British? Joint German-Japanese occupation?