Anna McLerran

[Stud2Stud]

Guess I missed the memo about Jackie being true and honest. I know it started with Jackie. Catie only nurtured it and drove him over the edge.

It is true it started roughly the same time when he was (for lack of a better term) hitting it off with Jackie. However as far as we know (and according to everything Marvin and Alec have ever said about this topic) noone put it into Chris' head. Jackie said he should get in touch with his feminine side and Chris just went overboard with it, adopting some terrible made up tomgirl shtick if I'm not mistaken.
In what way did Catie nurture it? Chris was long past that point when he started having contact with her...
If anything, Anna reinforced his delusions by thoughtlessly 'supporting' (ie: asspatting) him all the way to his current self.

 

[LazarusOwenhart]

@Marvin says Chris is serious about removing his penis. Remember that Chris isn't playing with a full deck, he's not capable of the subterfuge you're suggesting.

How does it work in the US? Here in the UK you have to go through some pretty insane psych exams before GR surgery, even if you go private. Chris would not pass these, full stop. Is it simply a matter of money over there or is there a legal procedure as well?

 

[Marvin]

How does it work in the US? Here in the UK you have to go through some pretty insane psych exams before GR surgery, even if you go private. Chris would not pass these, full stop. Is it simply a matter of money over there or is there a legal procedure as well?

It's the same thing here. Chris isn't getting this kind of surgery in the US.

 

[LazarusOwenhart]

It's the same thing here. Chris isn't getting this kind of surgery in the US.

So next stop Guatemala or somewhere. Surgery would be the death of him anyway, he couldn't even keep a piercing clean let alone major surgery scars. Back on topic though, I still don't think he's 100% serious about being a woman. I mean he doesn't live as one the way people with actual gender dysporia do. I know two actual sufferers and if you aren't in on the secret it's actually almost impossible to identify them as male, even the ugly one. Chris seems to wear his female identity like a costume, sometimes it's on, other times it's off. If he was serious he'd have changed his name by now and begun dressing properly female in public. At the moment he's just a slightly odd comedy drag act.

 

[Wolf Fetuses]

Anna doesn't like Chris, she likes knowing that Chris likes her, and that she is his best known white knight. As the old MHS crew pointed out, she doesn't ever visit Chris or Barb, she barely even speaks to him. She just argues with trolls on Facebook from a distance - all the attention of being Chris's #1 white knight with none of the actual interaction with him.

 

[Stud2Stud]

Anna doesn't like Chris, she likes knowing that Chris likes her, and that she is his best known white knight. As the old MHS crew pointed out, she doesn't ever visit Chris or Barb, she barely even speaks to him. She just argues with trolls on Facebook from a distance - all the attention of being Chris's #1 white knight with none of the actual interaction with him.

If her life sucks as much as we've got cause to believe, part of the reason why she keeps in contact with Chris is so she has someone to look down on, too. I guess.

Helps her feel morally superior for being the weird guy's friend but also gives her the fuzzy wuzzies for being better.

 

[Lipitor]

So next stop Guatemala or somewhere. Surgery would be the death of him anyway, he couldn't even keep a piercing clean let alone major surgery scars. Back on topic though, I still don't think he's 100% serious about being a woman. I mean he doesn't live as one the way people with actual gender dysporia do. I know two actual sufferers and if you aren't in on the secret it's actually almost impossible to identify them as male, even the ugly one. Chris seems to wear his female identity like a costume, sometimes it's on, other times it's off. If he was serious he'd have changed his name by now and begun dressing properly female in public. At the moment he's just a slightly odd comedy drag act.

Chris just wants to be in a circle of friends like he was in HS or like he's seen on My Little Pony. Obviously, he's disqualified from entry into such a social circle, so he thinks this ruse will help him pass through and make him seem less threatening. How many times has Chris done crazy things, hoping for a crazy ultimate end goal. The problem is Chris doesn't know anything about women outside of what he learns from shows designed for little girls.

 

[Marvin]

Back on topic though, I still don't think he's 100% serious about being a woman.

What do you mean? If he's genuine about it, isn't that how you'd define serious in this context?

If he was serious he'd have changed his name by now and begun dressing properly female in public. At the moment he's just a slightly odd comedy drag act.

Chris does dress properly female in public. (As far as he can tell.) He's also not aware that it's feasible for him to change his name at this point.

 

[The Other Chandler]

There's no way Chris will ever get approved for hormones, but I wonder how he'd react to them. Would he go through with it, or would he freak out and stop the minute actual changes started happening?

 

[Marvin]

There's no way Chris will ever get approved for hormones, but I wonder how he'd react to them. Would he go through with it, or would he freak out and stop the minute actual changes started happening?

Heh, Chris mutilated himself with a safety pin. I don't think Chris would pussy out. (It also doesn't help that he doesn't take severe consequences like these seriously.)

 

[LazarusOwenhart]

What do you mean? If he's genuine about it, isn't that how you'd define serious in this context?

Chris does dress properly female in public. (As far as he can tell.) He's also not aware that it's feasible for him to change his name at this point.

I dunno, he just doesn't seem committed to me. Yea he throws on women's clothing and a bit of make-up and parades around in public looking like a dude in women's clothes with bad make-up. Genuine gender dysphoria destroys people. One of the people I know literally cannot go out in public dressed as a guy, it kills her, she is a woman and that's final. Chris doesn't seem to care too much if people mistake him for a guy. Sure he whines about bathrooms in a non committal sort of way but that's a fairly generic thing to moan about when you have GD. The whole tomgirl thing seems to me (and this is my opinion so when everyone tells me I'm wrong please remember that I'm not stating this as fact) to be a front for the truth which is, as we all know, Chris is extremely uncomfortable with his sexuality. He's gay, or at least bisexual. He's tried oppressing these feelings for years but now he needs an outlet and the tomgirl thing allows him to explore his gay side whilst simultaneously protesting about how straight he is. It's win win as far as he's concerned. He can act like a flamboyant homosexual without actually being labelled as one.

 

[klystron]

That's not what he said. He didn't say Jackie caused it, but merely that Chris started it during Jackie. And Catie didn't have anything to do with Chris' tomgirlism.

(Well, also it's irrelevant to the discussion whether or not Jackie was true and honest.)

I didn't originally mention Catie. And "causing it" also means having a position of trust with someone and condoning/encouraging their behavior. You can do that by pretending abnormal behavior is normal. (Sort of like Catie pretending someone who would be into someone like Chris is really into someone like Chris.) Did Jackie get creeped out about Chris's behavior and leave him for it? If she had said that might be a possibility he would have stopped it instantly.

It is true it started roughly the same time when he was (for lack of a better term) hitting it off with Jackie. However as far as we know (and according to everything Marvin and Alec have ever said about this topic) noone put it into Chris' head. Jackie said he should get in touch with his feminine side and Chris just went overboard with it, adopting some terrible made up tomgirl shtick if I'm not mistaken.
In what way did Catie nurture it? Chris was long past that point when he started having contact with her...
If anything, Anna reinforced his delusions by thoughtlessly 'supporting' (ie: asspatting) him all the way to his current self.

I don't know if Anna encouraged his behavior or not. I don't consider her someone I know anymore.

The point is that Chris is easily gullible and manipulative. I know he can be extremely lazy, but if a girl threatens to leave him he will man up and get the job done like making all those videos for Ivy. Frankly he did a lot more for her than she pretended to do for him.

 

[Marvin]

One of the people I know literally cannot go out in public dressed as a guy, it kills her, she is a woman and that's final. Chris doesn't seem to care too much if people mistake him for a guy.

Chris has dogshit social skills, so he doesn't understand the implications behind being misgendered. It bothers him, but he's unaware of what a reasonable way to voice his discomfort to that would be. He's accepted being referred to as a man as a normal, if still annoying, part of his day. If Chris was aware that misgendering someone can be a pretty serious offense, he'd be a lot more worked up about it.

The whole tomgirl thing seems to me (and this is my opinion so when everyone tells me I'm wrong please remember that I'm not stating this as fact) to be a front for the truth which is, as we all know, Chris is extremely uncomfortable with his sexuality. He's gay, or at least bisexual. He's tried oppressing these feelings for years but now he needs an outlet and the tomgirl thing allows him to explore his gay side whilst simultaneously protesting about how straight he is. It's win win as far as he's concerned. He can act like a flamboyant homosexual without actually being labelled as one.

I would say it's impossible for Chris to be homosexual or bisexual (attracted to men) anytime in the past ten years, at least. Chris' disgust for men and male bodies is absolutely genuine. It's comparable to physical revulsion at this point.

Now, the one argument people can make is that Chris might've been a closeted homosexual at some point, where he was secretly attracted to men, but he was ashamed and tried to hide it.

Like, I suppose that's possible, but I haven't seen much evidence to support that theory. Personally, I think Chris learned, early on, that gay is bad, and adopted an excessively broad definition of gay. Seeing naked guys and not being horribly disgusted? You're definitely a fag. So Chris overreacted in his typically cartoonish way. And things have only gotten worse since then.

 

[klystron]

Like, I suppose that's possible, but I haven't seen much evidence to support that theory. Personally, I think Chris learned, early on, that gay is bad, and adopted an excessively broad definition of gay. Seeing naked guys and not being horribly disgusted? You're definitely a fag. So Chris overreacted in his typically cartoonish way. And things have only gotten worse since then.

Chris didn't really show an interest in dating or relationships until late in high school. This was likely triggered by seeing other people do it. Chris may have also had fears at the time of having to go out on his own because many people talk their senior year about being unable to wait to move out/get an apartment/job/etc. That may have contributed to his stress. He was probably afraid of facing the world alone. I really doubt he gave it any thought before that, gay or otherwise.

 

[Marvin]

And "causing it" also means having a position of trust with someone and condoning/encouraging their behavior.

I don't think so. I'm interested in the bigger chunk of Chris' motivations. Trolls aren't part of that.

Chris didn't really show an interest in dating or relationships until late in high school. This was likely triggered by seeing other people do it. Chris may have also had fears at the time of having to go out on his own because many people talk their senior year about being unable to wait to move out/get an apartment/job/etc. That may have contributed to his stress. He was probably afraid of facing the world alone. I really doubt he gave it any thought before that, gay or otherwise.

By "early on", I mean before college. Chris has talked about how people called him gay and how that bothered him.

 

[Stud2Stud]

I didn't originally mention Catie. And "causing it" also means having a position of trust with someone and condoning/encouraging their behavior. You can do that by pretending abnormal behavior is normal. (Sort of like Catie pretending someone who would be into someone like Chris is really into someone like Chris.) Did Jackie get creeped out about Chris's behavior and leave him for it? If she had said that might be a possibility he would have stopped it instantly.

Well, trolls don't really have an obligation to be Chris conciousness or common sense.

 

[LazarusOwenhart]

Chris has dogshit social skills, so he doesn't understand the implications behind being misgendered. It bothers him, but he's unaware of what a reasonable way to voice his discomfort to that would be. He's accepted being referred to as a man as a normal, if still annoying, part of his day. If Chris was aware that misgendering someone can be a pretty serious offense, he'd be a lot more worked up about it.

I would say it's impossible for Chris to be homosexual or bisexual (attracted to men) anytime in the past ten years, at least. Chris' disgust for men and male bodies is absolutely genuine. It's comparable to physical revulsion at this point.

Now, the one argument people can make is that Chris might've been a closeted homosexual at some point, where he was secretly attracted to men, but he was ashamed and tried to hide it.

Like, I suppose that's possible, but I haven't seen much evidence to support that theory. Personally, I think Chris learned, early on, that gay is bad, and adopted an excessively broad definition of gay. Seeing naked guys and not being horribly disgusted? You're definitely a fag. So Chris overreacted in his typically cartoonish way. And things have only gotten worse since then.

One could argue that the revulsion is a pavlovian reaction though. You could also argue that the thought process is such: Chris see's a penis> Chris subconcious' says 'Oh that looks like it would be nice to touch'> Chris conscious thoughts say 'no, penis=BAD'> Chris is now conflicted. At this point Chris has no idea how to react, he's having strong feelings about the penis and these feelings genuinely scare him because of the indoctrination he received as a child. Chris then has limited options. Touching the penis would instantly make him a homo, the thing he fears and therefore he has to react another way and that other way is to deny his own subconcious feeling with a cartoonish opposite reaction. Chris isn't disgusted by the penis, he's disgusted by the way the penis makes him feel!

Think of it this way, in the south before slavery was banned, a lot of people hated the blacks, how many of them felt sick seeing one? How many people, when walking round a corner and seeing a slave would instantly recoil in abject horror at the sight of one? Chris' reaction is not based on hatred, it's based on fear of himself. He's been in a room with gay people that he's known were gay and been fine with it, he even boasted about it, so he's not afraid of gay people. That horrified reaction only surfaces when someone implies he's gay, or something that might arouse a gay person occurs. Confsusion is a tremendously powerful human emotion, it can have a very nasty effect on people and cause people to experience extremes of anger and fear far beyond anything that any external stimuli creates. Outlandish disgust indicates that Chris is fighting an internal battle between what his libido wants and what his conscious tells him is correct.

 

[Marvin]

One could argue that the revulsion is a pavlovian reaction though.

That's what I was referring to when I discussed Chris originally being a closeted homosexual. An important point in this debate is what does it mean to be homosexual (or bisexual)? I'm using the simple definition that says that homosexuality/bisexuality requires you to be sexually attracted to someone of the same sex. I believe that nowadays, it's impossible for Chris to be sexually attracted to a man. In fact, it's the opposite: Chris is vehemently disgusted by male bodies. Assuming this disgust is genuine, regardless of if Chris trained this disgust into himself, it's factually impossible for Chris to be homosexual or bisexual.

Now, did Chris train (via Pavlovian conditioning) this disgust into himself? I don't think so. I haven't seen convincing evidence to support that theory.

 

[LazarusOwenhart]

That's what I was referring to when I discussed Chris originally being a closeted homosexual. An important point in this debate is what does it mean to be homosexual (or bisexual)? I'm using the simple definition that says that homosexuality/bisexuality requires you to be sexually attracted to someone of the same sex. I believe that nowadays, it's impossible for Chris to be sexually attracted to a man. In fact, it's the opposite: Chris is vehemently disgusted by male bodies. Assuming this disgust is genuine, regardless of if Chris trained this disgust into himself, it's factually impossible for Chris to be homosexual or bisexual.

Now, did Chris train (via Pavlovian conditioning) this disgust into himself? I don't think so. I haven't seen convincing evidence to support that theory.

See that's where I disagree, I think it's entirely possible, even probable that Chris attraction to male bodies is as strong as ever. There's a strong nature vs nurture argument regarding homosexuality these days but I'm firmly on the nature side. I think the disgust is triggered as a response when he feels attracted as he was conditioned to do by Borb, he's being a good little bigot. Chris likes man-ass and that won't change, disgust is his shield.

 

[LazarusOwenhart]

What does it mean to like something then? Is it genuinely attraction if it's not conscious? It's like someone if someone is eating food that they don't like, but someone telling them they secretly do like it.

No you've got it the wrong way round. Using the food analogy, Chris loves tomatoes. He knows this as when he puts them in his mouth his body tells him so. Unfortunately Chris comes from a place where tomatoes are loathed and people who eat them are evil. Chris learns this loathing and, because he's a weak willed person begins to apply it to himself. His body still loves tomatoes, it craves them, the sight of a bottle of ketchup drives him mad, but the hatred he feels for himself wins out and, because he has been taught to hate it so much, it explodes in a huge display of Fear and disgust. Eventually, Chris finds an outlet and starts eating tomato flavoured crisps. It's enough tomato to satisfy his craving but importantly enough he isn't eating any actual tomato.