Battletech - Also known as Trannytech

[RomanesEuntDomus]

Getting upset that the Argo isn't heavily armed is like getting upset that the IndustrialMech you just bought didn't come with a HAG/40.

I don't think anyone's getting "upset" about the Argo not being a Pocket Warship, but for a ship used by a merc unit during an intense Restoration War, it is pretty much a sitting duck.

Also, this whole point ties back to Corn Flakes earlier suggestion that ComStar could just hire some random gaggle of mercs to blow the Argo clean out of the sky, it would not even be remotely capable of fighting back against just a few opponents. A Leopard CV with 6 fighters would make short work of the Argo.

Also yeah, this isn't the same ComStar that was doing back flips making sure that shit was getting done, this was FailStar whos only thing they where able to get done was the whole "Battle of Tukayyid" and even then they gutted their ComGaurds to even accomplish that.

So? It's not like the Argo is hard to find or hard to get rid off. It's not even something ComStar has to do personally, if they don't want to. Keep in mind, just a few years later, they literally blow up 12 million people to keep the Helm Memory Core under lock and key. Yeah, they failed, but if ComStar can pull off something on that scale, surely, they can just give some random gaggle of mercs a call and tell them to get rid of the Argo.

The point is, the Argo's lore simply doesn't sit well with the established lore of the universe it supposedly is a part of. ComStar would do something about this ship, if only so it doesn't accidentally lead someone to a huge stash of pristine SLDF mechs... which afaik the Argo did.
The Argo then also picking up an SLDF AI at some point actually makes this whole matter significantly more pressing for ComStar.

Nothing's really stopping anyone from tossing dropships into the fight, the price tag on them makes it economically stupid though. A few fighters could bring the same or greater firepower for a tenth the cost, and you need the dropships in one piece to go home afterwards. Though I do seem to recall a couple of dedicated gunboat dropships in the 2750 book, don't think many survived any length of time after the league fell.

I guess I mainly just like the idea of a Union or Leopard Dropship coming down like the fist of an angry god, blasting away at puny Mechs... but you are right, the firepower of just a single AirLance of fighters has more firepower to offer at fraction of the cost.

I mean, if shit hits the fan, I could see a Dropship using its weapons during an evactuation.

 

[Corn Flakes]

I mean, if shit hits the fan, I could see a Dropship using its weapons during an evactuation.

That's basically what they're there for. DropShips are armed to defend themselves while underway (it can take weeks to get from the jump point to where you want to land), to clear lightly-defended landing zones, and to serve as a hardened position once the landing zone/beachhead is stablished. Even civilian DropShips often have some guns mounted if they're designed to ply more dangerous areas like the Periphery or pirate hunting grounds. The Mule is a great example of that. If it keeps a pirate gang's flight of Sabres away, it's worth the tonnage.

And then you get to Pocket WarShips, which is what happens when naval designers think to themselves "you know, just how big a gun can we fit on this thing?" and make the BattleTech equivalent of monitor ships.

 

[RomanesEuntDomus]

That's basically what they're there for. DropShips are armed to defend themselves while underway (it can take weeks to get from the jump point to where you want to land), to clear lightly-defended landing zones, and to serve as a hardened position once the landing zone/beachhead is stablished. Even civilian DropShips often have some guns mounted if they're designed to ply more dangerous areas like the Periphery or pirate hunting grounds. The Mule is a great example of that. If it keeps a pirate gang's flight of Sabres away, it's worth the tonnage.

And then you get to Pocket WarShips, which is what happens when naval designers think to themselves "you know, just how big a gun can we fit on this thing?" and make the BattleTech equivalent of monitor ships.

It's also a neat el cheapo version of an actual WarShip when compact KF-drives are hard to come by.
Even the humble Mule seems to carry a respectable armament... certainly enough to discourage at least some smaller groups of pirates. The Dropship doesn't have to outright kill all enemies, but if it can put up enough of a fight, any pirate will run the numbers and decide it's not worth the effort and repairs to pilfer a few goods. There's also the chance that the fighting will cause damage to the goods in the hold as well, rendering the whole operation moot.

This topic kinda reminds me of the game X3: Terran Conflict, where the lore for the Vulture freighter states that it has adequate shields and a decent armament with which the Vulture can "do more than just defend itself".
That always cracked me up, cause the ship has piss-poor shields and only a single turret, which makes it pretty much defenseless against even a single light fighter.

 

[robobobo]

Yeah, dropships are still instruments of war, it's expected that they'll be taking fire to and from a landing zone. They're essentially giant flying APCs. But their primary role is being a transport, they don't stick around getting in firefights for the fun of it.

 

[Corn Flakes]

It's also a neat el cheapo version of an actual WarShip when compact KF-drives are hard to come by.

Yep. And for all the spergery about the Argo, I just wish they hadn't broken the fluff in order to make it a DropShip and a "relic of Star League times". Because otherwise it would make for a perfect civilian JumpShip.

Seriously, mercenaries having their own JumpShips isn't that uncommon a thing in BattleTech. You could even keep that boring secondary progression system where you have to talk to Murad to upgrade and bring online different parts of the ship. That's all fine. JumpShips dating back to the Star League days aren't even unheard of either, because the ones that survived the first two Succession Wars started being treated as noncombatants. Would it draw ComStar's attention? Probably, everything that old resurfacing does. But it would be a much more elegant way to avoid that huge Argo-shaped hole in the lore HBS and Catalyst had to inelegantly plaster over.

Just stretch the Argo, make it longer, give it a solar sail and a civilian-grade KF-drive. It's still a Boeing prototype, it works better as a mobile base for colonization efforts, and it gets to carry that Leopard without needing yet another one-of-a-kind prototype device that never shows up anywhere else.

 

[RomanesEuntDomus]

Just stretch the Argo, make it longer, give it a solar sail and a civilian-grade KF-drive. It's still a Boeing prototype, it works better as a mobile base for colonization efforts, and it gets to carry that Leopard without needing yet another one-of-a-kind prototype device that never shows up anywhere else.

That's something that occured to me just a moment ago, too.
We've spoken about all the things the Argo could potentially have to offer, such as some data or charts that might contain some spicy bits, but what it de facto does offer is that weird system to daisychain DropShips into JumpShips and that would be of some interest to a lot of people.

Actually, the idea of having the Argo as a JumpShip and a Leopard DropShip is pretty neat for how it would potentially change the gameplay:

You have your stored mechs and facilities on the Argo, when you come to a new system, you choose what 12 mechs to bring and then set off in the Leopard. You can't propperly repair, maybe you have limited ammo stores or something and then you go back to the Argo once the missions are over and do propper maintenance and repair work.

 

[BlackDragoons]

That's something that occured to me just a moment ago, too.
We've spoken about all the things the Argo could potentially have to offer, such as some data or charts that might contain some spicy bits, but what it de facto does offer is that weird system to daisychain DropShips into JumpShips and that would be of some interest to a lot of people.

Its offset by the fact it eats up two docking rings when the Argo docks with a jumpship and the Argo itself comes with 3 dock rings itself.


Also the MDCS doesn't allow increase docking space. https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Multiple_Docking_Collar_System

 

[RomanesEuntDomus]

Its offset by the fact it eats up two docking rings when the Argo docks with a jumpship and the Argo itself comes with 3 dock rings itself.


Also the MDCS doesn't allow increase docking space. https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Multiple_Docking_Collar_System

The MDCS at least breaks canon in a very insignificant, easily ignored fashion and has been well-balanced retroactively.
But it's still something that no other ship can do and could get some people interested in obtaining it... maybe if only to get a better understanding of SLDF-era jump technology and maybe in a vain hope to somehow overcome the limitations.

 

[Balr0g]

Yep. And for all the spergery about the Argo, I just wish they hadn't broken the fluff in order to make it a DropShip and a "relic of Star League times". Because otherwise it would make for a perfect civilian JumpShip.

Seriously, mercenaries having their own JumpShips isn't that uncommon a thing in BattleTech. You could even keep that boring secondary progression system where you have to talk to Murad to upgrade and bring online different parts of the ship. That's all fine. JumpShips dating back to the Star League days aren't even unheard of either, because the ones that survived the first two Succession Wars started being treated as noncombatants. Would it draw ComStar's attention? Probably, everything that old resurfacing does. But it would be a much more elegant way to avoid that huge Argo-shaped hole in the lore HBS and Catalyst had to inelegantly plaster over.

Just stretch the Argo, make it longer, give it a solar sail and a civilian-grade KF-drive. It's still a Boeing prototype, it works better as a mobile base for colonization efforts, and it gets to carry that Leopard without needing yet another one-of-a-kind prototype device that never shows up anywhere else.

That's what irked me about the Argo: a Dropship carrying a Dropship (as you still use the Leopard your unit starts the game with) I have never seen this concept in the Bt lore. There are Jumpships which have no Docking collar for Dropships (the Explorer class Jumpships say "Hello!") but a Dropship carrying a smaller Dropship? If that would have been a Colossus or a Dictator or even a Lee that would have been a better explanation as those ships could carry huge units (and given how many Mechs you have in the late game). Granted a Lee might have been a bit too extravagant as those Ships were the most sophisticated Dropships of the Star League but still.

 

[Corn Flakes]

That's what irked me about the Argo: a Dropship carrying a Dropship (as you still use the Leopard your unit starts the game with) I have never seen this concept in the Bt lore. There are Jumpships which have no Docking collar for Dropships (the Explorer class Jumpships say "Hello!") but a Dropship carrying a smaller Dropship? If that would have been a Colossus or a Dictator or even a Lee that would have been a better explanation as those ships could carry huge units (and given how many Mechs you have in the late game). Granted a Lee might have been a bit too extravagant as those Ships were the most sophisticated Dropships of the Star League but still.

Yeah, that's because they literally invented the Multiple Docking Collar System when fans pointed out dropships cannot carry other dropships in BattleTech. That's what I mean by lore holes getting plastered over. They could have stuck to canon lore just fine, but for some reason they really wanted the Argo to be a DropShip instead of a long-distance exploration JumpShip.

 

[Takayuki Yagami]

Probably mention BP. That seems to trigger him hardcore.

BP? Forgive me, I’m very new.

 

[Capsaicin Addict]

Yeah, that's because they literally invented the Multiple Docking Collar System when fans pointed out dropships cannot carry other dropships in BattleTech. That's what I mean by lore holes getting plastered over. They could have stuck to canon lore just fine, but for some reason they really wanted the Argo to be a DropShip instead of a long-distance exploration JumpShip.

Probably because during that timeframe (post-3SW, pre-4SW), very few if any Jumpships had anything more than a bridge, a K-F core, a solar sail, docking collars, and a station-keeping drive. It's actually referenced in the first Clan invasion novel.

If you thought 'tarted up Dropship' would bring Comstar sniffing around, a tarted up Jumpship would most certainly do it.

 

[Corn Flakes]

Probably because during that timeframe (post-3SW, pre-4SW), very few if any Jumpships had anything more than a bridge, a K-F core, a solar sail, docking collars, and a station-keeping drive. It's actually referenced in the first Clan invasion novel.

If you thought 'tarted up Dropship' would bring Comstar sniffing around, a tarted up Jumpship would most certainly do it.

You would be surprised. Monoliths are still in use (although uncommon) by 3025, and so are Explorers. Certainly, most JumpShips by that time are going to be simpler designs like Merchants (which do include a grav deck, by the way), but it's not like both House units and Mercenaries weren't going around with fancier tech if they could afford it.

As for ComStar, again: a lot of JumpShips in common use by 3025 were either designed or outright built in the Star League era. ComStar doesn't seem to have anything against JumpShip technology being widespread, what they don't want is WarShips going around. Hence the Tripitz Affair. On the other hand, the Argo being an one-of-a-kind DropShip, larger than all but one DropShip class before or since, designed for a purpose literally no other DropShip was ever used for before or since, and packed to the gills with rare tech that Murad keeps digging up like she's rifling through Ian Cameron's trash, including LosTech devices that allow it to daisy-chain K-F fields and multiple literally heretofore unknown DropShip grav decks... yeah, that would draw a lot more attention than just a well-salvaged custom-designed but otherwise requiring no LosTech exploration-focused JumpShip.

The Argo just works better as a JumpShip. And, as a bonus, it wouldn't require the Multiple Docking Collar System to have been written into existence for the sole purpose of covering up HBS's dumb mistake. That's the part that really rankles me. I have nothing against well-written canon immigrants, but this ain't it.

 

[BlackDragoons]

BP? Forgive me, I’m very new.

Blaine Pardoe hes one of the main writers for Battletech. Hes got a stalker problem regarding "Faith McClosky" so bad that he had to put a restraining order on him.

 

[Snekposter]

Also, for pretty much anything except indirect fire support there is a Marauder suitable for the task.

Its not a Marauder, but the Bandersnatch that uses Marauder parts has a trio of LRM-5's.

 

[Corn Flakes]

Its not a Marauder, but the Bandersnatch that uses Marauder parts has a trio of LRM-5's.

And then there's the Cataphract, which also uses Marauder parts.

We don't talk about the Cataphract.

 

[TFT-A9]

And then there's the Cataphract, which also uses Marauder parts.

We don't talk about the Cataphract.

Because it's ugly or because it's Liao?

 

[Snekposter]

And then there's the Cataphract, which also uses Marauder parts.

We don't talk about the Cataphract.

Yeah, but the Bandersnatch (at least in the updated TRO 3055 from 2005) is better-looking than the Frankenphract.

3x LRM-5, 2x LB-10-X, and the usual assortment of medium lasers because they're medium lasers. I'm not going to post the original TRO: 3055 art for you fellas.

I'm also going to spare everyone the Liao blasphemy known as the Cataphract and not post a picture. It only took until the ilClan era to create something that won't sear your eyeballs like that poor fish from Spongebob.

 

[TFT-A9]

Yeah, but the Bandersnatch (at least in the updated TRO 3055 from 2005) is better-looking than the Frankenphract.
View attachment 3466349
3x LRM-5, 2x LB-10-X, and the usual assortment of medium lasers because they're medium lasers. I'm not going to post the original TRO: 3055 art for you fellas.

I'm also going to spare everyone the Liao blasphemy known as the Cataphract and not post a picture. It only took until the ilClan era to create something that won't sear your eyeballs like that poor fish from Spongebob.

The Bandersnatch has a great loadout.

I know the Cataphract is ridiculous looking in the old TROs, but Plog apparently took a stab at the -0X and...


I kind of like this take on it, though Plog is not great at poses. The newer version done by Blackwell is ok, but something about this version is neat. It's an ugly mech, but this is at least an interesting "ugly".

 

[Snekposter]

The Bandersnatch has a great loadout.

I know the Cataphract is ridiculous looking in the old TROs, but Plog apparently took a stab at the -0X and...

View attachment 3467946
I kind of like this take on it, though Plog is not great at poses. The newer version done by Blackwell is ok, but something about this version is neat. It's an ugly mech, but this is at least an interesting "ugly".

Indeed. Not great, not terrible overall... but still ugly.

And really, its damn hard to beat medium lasers and LB-10-X AC's for sheer utility.