I like Dick when he takes on the cowl(post Knightfall and before/during Batman Inc), but even that(at least Knightfall) acknowledge that Dick had grown into his own thing. Dick has the moves, but not the mind. Tim Drake is the full potential replacement of Bruce, even Ra's Al Ghul acknowledged that.
I do think that while none of the family is a perfect replacement for Bruce, they can still do the job.
I think you guys are taking what I'm saying too literally. my point is not he should replace Bruce but that he's essentially a better version of Bruce (Well, more rounded) by virtue of learning from his mistakes, not having the same hang-ups etc.
you know the idea that you raise your children to be better than you are, is exemplified in Nightwing. Because he was raised by batman and by extention the justice league or whatever he's got the advantage of being taught all of the strengths and learning early from the weaknesses. He's basically Bruce if Bruce could turn off the obsessivness enough to have a real life outside of it also, which im sure is how Bruce wanted him to grow up. He's his own guy sure, but that's exactly what makes him "better"
I think Nightwing definitely could put the mask up one day, but I also think he never would, because he enjoys it but also because he believes in what he does. I think once he gets old or whatever Dick Grayson would be one of the first guys to roll up to someone whether magic or tech or whatever and be like hey hook me up with something to make me 30 again I don't want to be sitting on my ass.
My issue with that is a lot of who Batman is stems from his mood. He is moody. He has hang-ups that push him to his physical and mental limits. He is the best detective and an absolute wreck because of his obsessions. It is good to show his personality being a double-edged sword.
Dick was always his own man and honestly is more of Bruce’s little brother than “son” due to Batman’s arrested development and his own state of mind in those early years of the cowl. In that regard, he really is the culmination of Batman and Superman’s ideologies. Very funny that his best girlfriend was a flying brick alien.
I do think that a lot of the growing up was done after he met Dick. He had to step up.
Jason was a little Rorschach in the making before Bruce but never lost the scrappy touch and despite him being a “failed” Robin, was arguably the closest in soul to Bruce. Also he lacked a counterpart in the other side of the family.
Jason is my favorite of the 3. Thus, I am biased. He definitely has the soul of Batman even if he lacks his hang-ups with killing and guns (unfortunately both those were added later and while I understand no killing with the Bat Family, no guns is too much for me). I do like seeing him in the role of the detective as he is both good at it and his thinking is so different from the rest of the family. Also, I considered Cass to be his counterpart.
Tim got the brains and that’s what makes a Batman because the rest will follow. Helps also that on the other side of the family, he had a consistent friendship with Conner. Who likewise didn’t have all the “moves” of the predecessor but was a little version of that character, acknowledged by a foe whose primary colour is green. As has been discussed, even DC acknowledged it and the New 52 Batman and Superman were meant to be these two before they got cold feet.
Tim was a good character. Shame they ruined him by making him a yaoi twink.
There was something with her facing more of the magical foes but that went nowhere due to the focus on being a lesbian crime fighter as opposed to a magical one.
Barbara was better as a cripple
She was better as mission command, not as a cripple. There are so many things one could have done with her remaning behind to do what no one else can do as well.
I would argue that there was no room for any more Bat Family members.
Catwoman is an insufferable whore who Bruce should’ve thrown in prison
After "the wedding", there is no good will left in me for that character. I think Bruce needs a new love interest.
Damian is a little grotesque only good when Jon joined the universe and subsequently became useless when Jon was ruined.
The only times I ever actually liked Damien was when Dick was Batman, or when him and Jon were in Super Sons. It's weird to say considering how little of it we actually have in comparison but I honestly dont like Damien and Bruce's father/son relationship anywhere near as much as him and Dick's brotherly one.
The best thing for Damian would be for him to grow into Batman and tank the mantle, leading to him following Bruce’s path in the DCAU. Making Damian the new old man Bruce for Batman Beyond would actually work perfectly for him. It allows Beyond to exist in universe without tanking Bruce’s, nor any of the other family member’s, development to make it possible.
Damian is the most obvious to piss off the family into becoming a recluse. I can easily buy him cutting ties with his brothers and the family more than with Bruce. It would also give him a good arc of reclaiming his father’s legacy through Terry. Plus he is more murder prone, having him use the gun and having it conflict with his father’s ideals would seem like a story for him, and a reason for him to quit the mantle.
That’s brilliant actually. Damian being the sad old man in BB comics/any never to happen adaptations is perfect. Plus it lets Bruce stay mythic like the rest of the League and die happy.
Just after the old man dying, Damian fucks it up and channels his dad by crashing out over the span of twenty years and becomes an even more fucked up Frank Miller Batman then ends up being a pathetic old recluse, as Gotham goes to hell.
I like it.
Yeah, I think Damien as the old man in the chair for Beyond is probably the best thing they could do with him long term. I don't hate Damien, I just don't really like him very much. writers post Morrison seem to write him either as a complete psychopath or a whiny little boy with little depth to either take. Ive read a few things I really liked him in over the years, but nothing really with any standout moments I still remember. It's mostly all stuff I vaguely remember just thinking to myself "I actually liked Robin in that".
Damian works only as he abandons his murderbrain and learns to become normal. Most of us learned to appreciate him when he interacted with others who challenged his worldview. He is very incomplete as a character. He needs a mistake or two that makes him realize his mindset is not good. As for BB, I think of him as someone who would have decided to become a hero to another city or live a normal life after retiring from crimefighting due to not using the Lazarus Pit. Perhaps he would train superheroes?
Ive always kind of liked that about their relationship, I like the idea that raising Dick sort of grew Bruce up a bit. Their relationship being almost like a unprepared dad sort of raising his kid like his friend, but with a bit more structure than that. With a heavy dose of Alfred stepping in and making Bruce be a dad and not his buddy when he needs to.
Tim is really the only other Robin I give a shit about and they've abused him to such a degree I now wish they had just killed him off.
Dick should be Bruce's little brother who he adopted. And Tim, I really miss when he was the best Robin. They just had to ruin him.
Dick is great at the crime fighting aspect of Batman, but I don't think he ever really compared to him as the "World Greatest Detective." I like how Dick grew apart from Batman. He is good as Batman, but I also think he comes across as a much more different one than Tim would be. However, I also think he has Batman had a much better chemistry with Damian than Bruce had or Tim would of.
This. He has different strengths than Bruce. Being far more approachable is one of them.
What @Humble Architect was saying about him being a Rorschach in the making is true, but it's less because Jason was so fucked up, and moreso because Batman was a fucking idiot and had arbitrary rules that were pushing him further down that path. Jason was a fucked up kid, but Batman arguably was making him way worse by being vague and just expecting him to know what is and isn't acceptable even though it was all contradictory.
Bruce was going through things back then too. Dick had just left and he tried to fill the void. He is not good when family leaves him. I do also think he got some brain damage from his death. This is, too me my headcanon as to why the Lazarus Pit makes users mad (the fear of mortality being another) and why it made Jason a little bit off (apart from the mental trauma). Between his death and resurrection, his brain rotted a bit and the Pit had to work with what it had.
I've never really understood why the general public of comics readers hated Jason so much back then, pre crisis they wrote him exactly like they did Dick whenever he was around sparingly the few years prior, and post crisis he actually was pretty interesting, but none of it really went anywhere because what could have been the turning point period for him was cut short because they killed his ass.
I heard that a guy with a machine rigged the poll.
- Superman (Jon Kent): Good to see you Damian.
- Damian Wayne: It's been a while.
- Superman (Jon Kent): You seem to be holding up pretty well.
- Damian Wayne: I could use some of that Kryptonian DNA.
- Superman (Jon Kent): You'll outlive us all, Damian. You're too stubborn to die.
- Damian Wayne: [Looks at Terry] What are you smiling at?
- Terry: Nothing.
A surprising amount of BB would hold up better if it was Damian as the old man. Imagine the Ras takes over Talia twist and how much more fucked it would be for Damian to see his mother in that state, rather than Batman seeing his sometimes fling. The bitter old Batman that is a lot more cruel would fit him better in general. Damian is already an ass, making him old and unable to perform is only going to accelerate it.
The worst part of BB, the reveal of Terry being Bruce’s son could potentially even work better if it was Damian. Damian himself was a test-tube baby, having his kid secretly be created the same way, presumably by Talia before she gets offed by Ras, would be a good full circle for him. Terry was literally genetically modified to be Damian’s replacement, the not failed Batman, but Damian training him without knowing allowed Terry to be fixed the same way his father worked to fix him. Without Damian, Terry could have ended up as a League of Shadows killer rather than a true successor.
As for the Frank Miller part, it could fit really well with Beyond. Beyond makes it a point that criminals get way more dangerous as time goes on. Every jackass now how some high powered tech suit to rip apart a city with. Damian would eventually decide his old man’s style is ineffective to dealing with the growing new threats and became the more violent, grizzled Batman. I would believe this eventually leads to clashes with the remaining Batfamily and later an identity crisis that leads to his retirement. Terry then acts as the redemption for Damian letting his father’s legacy burn.
I do not think that this fits as well. The whole of BB works because it is Bruce that fucked up. He fucked up his relationship with the entire Bat Family and was left alone. Damian, as I said, should have grown out of his weird phase. I do think that this approach COULD work but it should still have Bruce play the same role. Just have Damian be the violent Batman, fail and then Bruce re-takes the mantle until he is forced to pick a gun. Then, he realizes that things have changed. That he has no ability to live up to his own standards and takes off the mantle.
