DC Comics Multimedia General - A crisis of infinite fuck ups

[Overly Serious]

Lex Luthor: Man of Steel is fun because it takes so many Lex scheme cliches and completely changes their tone and presentation with Lex’s POV and the inhuman, alien way he actually thinks.

It also has great art which should be mentioned.


I also find this Lex very relatable. Superman is the cheat code, the solved puzzle, the unwanted spoiler. Remember when you're a kid and you're trying to achieve something - climb something, figure something out, draw something, whatever - and a grown-up comes along and "helps you" by doing it for you?


Superman renders Mankind's struggles and achievements meaningless. It's like climbing Mt. Kilimanjaro and when you reach the top you find someone has built a cable car route and set up a "Kilimanjarocafé"

Lex is the ultimate self-made man. Even more so than Batman possibly as "self-made man" means societal success and Lex, even in versions he has a wealthy father, still largely is shown as a businessman who built his empire himself. Whilst he sees Superman as the ultimate Silver Spoon, handed godhood as a birthright.

How could he not hate him?

One of the things I hated in James Gunn's Superman was Supes having the meltdown in Lex's office. If it was a calm back and forth, that ended with Lex in a panic over what Superman knows. It would have gone over way better, instead of Superman looking like a bitch.

Gunn has nowhere near the level of maturity to consider that worth doing. It wouldn't be "cool" to him. Superman is someone's fantasy version of themself. To you - a mature, strong, intelligent man: someone who would make the perfect husband, the perfect father, the perfect ambassador hero. To James Gunn: someone who people have to respect the temper tantrums of and who has a wise motherly girlfriend who guides him and tells him what's right.

It is evident that Clayface was originally designed within the Matt Reeves universe. The set features various elements from the Batman franchise, including the Bat-symbol and newspapers referencing fictional drugs from the Batman and the penguin. P.S who the hell thinks Clayface a good way to start Cinematic universe?

Most ways would be good ways if they're done well. Clayface has a few things that could be exploited well as the second instalment of the Reeves Batman. It introduces the unnatural early on. If Reeves wants to build a more comics book universe and I believe he did, then you want to establish that the freaky is possible early on, rather than genre shift hard later. The Batman had only small hints here and there of non-realism. Like what was possibly venom at the end of the movie. You need it in the second movie if you want it in the franchise at all and Clayface is a good measured half-way house. It's Science™ rather than magic. It's body horror - always easier to blend with realism than sheer fantasy. He's a somewhat street level-ish villain who can be integrated into established mobster storylines like Penguin's. And he's lesser known which is a plus if you play it as such - it's not yet another take on the Joker, for example.

I also checked out the director's history. I don't really know him but he's been around long enough that he wont drop the ball in any technical sense and what I have seen of his - Oculus was a decently shot horror movie and The Fall of the House of Usher was actually pretty good if it weren't for being one of the most DEI-obsessed pieces of nonsense I've ever seen. Plus you have Reeves running oversight for tone and smooth integration into a wider vision.

I think in my fantasy timeline in which Gunn is swallowed by a benevolent black hole and Reeves gets free reign to guide a new DCEU, the Reeves-verse would not be a massive mainstream hit the way the MCU is. Both because people have had a surfeit of capeshit but also because he would be taking on too weird a task. Integrating Superman into The Batman universe, adding in a slightly more comics-book version of Bane (not full melons for arms comicbook, but actually including venom for example) and similar, all this would lead to a very weird tapas. But he would do it well enough to please people like me and many.

Sadly, we will probably never see that unless Reeves or some protege gets hold of a massive CGI budget and does the whole thing with AI.

 

[Humble Architect]

I really appreciate Lex Luthor: Man of Steel for showing how Lex and Clark are the same idea executed differently, the Golden Age Nietzsche flair coming back.

Both are takes on the “perfect man isn’t human,” ubermensch-like. But Clark chooses it everyday, giving the powers back to the world, being the flawless ideal while in reality, he’s just a good man from Kansas. He has an unfair advantage over everyone, but he’s taking on a bigger “weight” to make up for it. He can do more and he does, every day.

Then you have Lex, cold, imitating warmth/charm and he claims to be above the “base” pleasures of Bruce Wayne. He’s won, he is the apex of the apex, wielding more power in his bank account than anything Superman has, world-changing influence and with his intellect, he has a pretty big weight to be pulling too.

And he doesn’t, because Lex is a hypocrite, every platitude he spouts in the mini is a hypocrisy. He spurns his hot assistant, taking a “high ground” then screws Hope, his creation/bomb/vanity project. Because his standards are impossible and Superman just gave them a face.

Lex can’t accept the truth that every man has to accept, from construction workers, to cab drivers to doctors. “You aren’t perfect, you are flawed and the world is unfair.”

Which is why it’s rich for Lex Bezos to be complaining about men being born equal when he detests man and was literally born with genius intellect, beyond that of even the alien he hates so much.

Superman is his Liquid Chris.

 

[OutInTheRain]

Gunn has nowhere near the level of maturity to consider that worth doing. It wouldn't be "cool" to him. Superman is someone's fantasy version of themself. To you - a mature, strong, intelligent man: someone who would make the perfect husband, the perfect father, the perfect ambassador hero. To James Gunn: someone who people have to respect the temper tantrums of and who has a wise motherly girlfriend who guides him and tells him what's right.

If Gunn had just given a mature, serious Superman, Everyone else around him can be silly. But now you have someone that the entire world pivots around. Someone who is consequential. Gunn Superman is just whiny. There is so much you can do in a first phase that is just the reaction to Supes.

Supergirl becomes easy to write, and we get a movie about realizing fame isn't important and it's ok to be in someone's shadow. Rather than scuffed Guardians. The rest of DC gets provided with a heroic ideal to live up to and in some cases not disappoint.

 

[Incecticyder]

I know I'm always whining and being a faggot because we've never gotten the Superman wank movie, but is it really too much to ask for a movie where Superman is a competent man? Not even the hard ass with a sense of humor I'd want, just a dude who isn't either a sad mopey sack of shit or a whiny baby sack of shit?

I want a Superman movie where Luthor goes into a 5 minute monologue breaking him down into pieces and Superman just stares at him flatly the whole time and hits him with a "you fucking done? I do what I do, because it's the right thing to do. That's it, nothing else to it. You serve yourself, I serve everyone else" then knocks his ass out and throws him in jail himself.

A Superman who in that conversation with Lois in the movie would basically just say "I saved lives, you or anyone else doesnt like it? tough shit. better leaving just people pissed off at me than leaving orphaned children and broken families. People are always going to disagree with me but as long as I have the power to help, I'm going to. they know where to find me, if they want to stop me they're welcome to try, they won't. you disagree with me? Fine. No sweat off my back. I dont like the fact you're always getting yourself thrown off roofs and out of helicopters but you dont hear me bitching about it"

Superman/Clark should be awkward but competent. Not used in the big city, works with people he doesn't know and are established in their fields while having to commute in a web of routines. He should be already great enough to be scouted by a big news organization. In my headcanon, Clark was in drama and debate clubs on top of the newspaper and a sports' club. He had to learn to play Superman as he is ultimately just a good (if strong) kid from Kansas and not the beacon of confidence that is the Man of Steel. Gunn wrote an incompetent "Soylatte" and now he is about to give us "Supergirlfailure". He might know how to write quirky misfits but he should have been saved for the "Outlaws". He does not fit JL.

I really appreciate Lex Luthor: Man of Steel for showing how Lex and Clark are the same idea executed differently, the Golden Age Nietzsche flair coming back.

Both are takes on the “perfect man isn’t human,” ubermensch-like. But Clark chooses it everyday, giving the powers back to the world, being the flawless ideal while in reality, he’s just a good man from Kansas. He has an unfair advantage over everyone, but he’s taking on a bigger “weight” to make up for it. He can do more and he does, every day.

Then you have Lex, cold, imitating warmth/charm and he claims to be above the “base” pleasures of Bruce Wayne. He’s won, he is the apex of the apex, wielding more power in his bank account than anything Superman has, world-changing influence and with his intellect, he has a pretty big weight to be pulling too.

And he doesn’t, because Lex is a hypocrite, every platitude he spouts in the mini is a hypocrisy. He spurns his hot assistant, taking a “high ground” then screws Hope, his creation/bomb/vanity project. Because his standards are impossible and Superman just gave them a face.

Lex can’t accept the truth that every man has to accept, from construction workers, to cab drivers to doctors. “You aren’t perfect, you are flawed and the world is unfair.”

Which is why it’s rich for Lex Bezos to be complaining about men being born equal when he detests man and was literally born with genius intellect, beyond that of even the alien he hates so much.

Superman is his Liquid Chris.

Basically this. However, I do not like versions of Lex where he had to struggle. I have said so before. Lex has to have had life on easy mode for me to work as a villain. He should have found everything easy on his way up even if he was born at the bottom. Superman HAS to be his first real wall. That is the thing that should lead to the obsession. I hate when they try to make a villain that is meant to be unsympathetic into a sympathetic one. "His father beat him, feel sorry for him." The best versions of the hyper-intelligent villain were David Xanatos and Sosuke Aizen in my book. Understandable and they lacked a sad backstory beyond snippets that still do not justify their cruelty nor are they supposed to make you feel sad for them. Lex should be like that too. Everyone is trying to romanticize monsters.

 

[Newcomer 42]

Everyone is trying to romanticize monsters.

Never forget the literal "orc refugees" from Rings of Muh Powah!

That reminds me: Everyone says that Batman is insane for taking on crime with a costume and gadgets, yadda yadda.
What does it say about Green Arrow, who does the same but even lacks the gadgets (other than a few gimmick arrows)? Why isn't he called out as a wacko?
IIRC he's also a classic leftist, way before they became death cultists of today.

 

[Humble Architect]

I like the middle ground. Lex was born with a silver spoon but was “little m” millionaire and thinks he had it rough because dad told him “No” and later Lex thinks he is “self-made” but truth is he’s born with cheat codes on, same as Clark.

It’s what he does with it that’s the difference and Superman is the first guy to say “No” and not be able to be bribed, charmed, intimidated or murdered. He makes Lex “small” and Lex mentally cannot handle it.

That reminds me: Everyone says that Batman is insane for taking on crime with a costume and gadgets, yadda yadda.
What does it say about Green Arrow, who does the same but even lacks the gadgets (other than a few gimmick arrows)? Why isn't he called out as a wacko?
IIRC he's also a classic leftist, way before they became death cultists of today.

Nobody likes Green Arrow.

 

[strumpets exeunt]

I have said so before. Lex has to have had life on easy mode for me to work as a villain. He should have found everything easy on his way up even if he was born at the bottom. Superman HAS to be his first real wall. That is the thing that should lead to the obsession.

I think this only works when you take Superman and Lex as something that is not a part of a bigger comic universe. You've got evil geniuses like Sivana, T.O. Morrow, Ivo, Veronica Cale, Stagg, and probably a dozen more vying for power. And that's not including the good geniuses who are constantly trying to take a piece out of Lex financially, like Mr. Terrific and Batman. One of my favorite offhanded remarks from the Batman/Superman comics was Superman lamenting that Lex was actually worth less than Bruce Wayne on paper, but could still find ways of skirting the law that the good guys could only dream about.

 

[Ultraman Orb Dark]

IIRC he's also a classic leftist, way before they became death cultists of today.

I think there was an episode of the Justice League cartoon where he was pretty upset to meet the nuclear-powered Captain Atom because he protested nuclear power in college.

 

[Incecticyder]

I think this only works when you take Superman and Lex as something that is not a part of a bigger comic universe. You've got evil geniuses like Sivana, T.O. Morrow, Ivo, Veronica Cale, Stagg, and probably a dozen more vying for power. And that's not including the good geniuses who are constantly trying to take a piece out of Lex financially, like Mr. Terrific and Batman. One of my favorite offhanded remarks from the Batman/Superman comics was Superman lamenting that Lex was actually worth less than Bruce Wayne on paper, but could still find ways of skirting the law that the good guys could only dream about.

He doesn't need to be the only, just the first. The Paradigm Shift. Lex has to be someone TOO GOOD at hiding who he is to the point he is never even a suspect. Alibis, pseudonyms, debt, donations, shell companies, charm, intellect, blackmail etc etc. He should be the mastermind that no one even considers a possible suspect. Even those that do suspect must be unable to tie him to anything. That is someone who is Superman's equal. Going after him should be like navigating an ever-shifting maze. A near-impossible task.

 

[God of Nothing]

Nobody likes Green Arrow.

people liked him when he was just batman with a bow in that one tv show

 

[The Nothingness]

Alfred has a black daughter, that they've pushed off and on over the last decade.

I dont mind though because she's never relevant to anything and he'll never give her as much attention as he does to his kid he does care about, Bruce.

I think she's sort of a long lost child situation but like I said, they've brought her around multiple times in recent years and promptly forgot by the end of whatever story she showed up in in the first place.

Alfred was a military and theater man, of course he got a couple servings of dark meat out and about his travels.

She must have been really irrelevant as the Batwoman show made her white (along with being another of Kate's exes) and none of the outrage led to the character being immediately recasted.

Funny how changing the race was suddenly an issue

 

[Ultraman Orb Dark]

people liked him when he was just batman with a bow in that one tv show

Me, someone who actually liked Arrow:

 

[ArthuriusMartyrius]

people liked him when he was just batman with a bow in that one tv show

I don't think people liked him in that either, when Arrow was still running the only time I would hear it mentioned is people bitching about how lazy the show had gotten and hanging shit on it for constantly stealing plots and characters from other DC capeshit comics. People were making fun of Stephen Amell's gruff-voiced "badass" portrayal of Oliver even in season 1.

I know I'm always whining and being a faggot because we've never gotten the Superman wank movie, but is it really too much to ask for a movie where Superman is a competent man? Not even the hard ass with a sense of humor I'd want, just a dude who isn't either a sad mopey sack of shit or a whiny baby sack of shit?

I want a Superman movie where Luthor goes into a 5 minute monologue breaking him down into pieces and Superman just stares at him flatly the whole time and hits him with a "you fucking done? I do what I do, because it's the right thing to do. That's it, nothing else to it. You serve yourself, I serve everyone else" then knocks his ass out and throws him in jail himself.

A Superman who in that conversation with Lois in the movie would basically just say "I saved lives, you or anyone else doesnt like it? tough shit. better leaving just people pissed off at me than leaving orphaned children and broken families. People are always going to disagree with me but as long as I have the power to help, I'm going to. they know where to find me, if they want to stop me they're welcome to try, they won't. you disagree with me? Fine. No sweat off my back. I dont like the fact you're always getting yourself thrown off roofs and out of helicopters but you dont hear me bitching about it"

I'd settle for a Superman that is afforded a baseline level of competency that other heroes are given AKA he can fight and is quite intelligent. Let him do his own science stuff and don't have him struggle with the most piss-weak enemies and groan in pain from hits that shouldn't even phase him. Superman has really been done a disservice by the "he's OP" meme.

Agree

The only ‘bad’ (not really) redesign I can think of is Ivy, just for the weirdness in them not really specifying her age well. It is a little bizarre to have traditional seductress Ivy, but they clearly design her to be jailbait. Very strange design decisions, wish she was a little more mature as I think many elements are still good.

I can give that Ivy a pass but the Gotham version was straight up creepy because it was essentially a little girl's mind inside a grown woman's body. And they didn't even try to hand wave it by pretending that her mind got aged up with her body somehow, she still acts like a kid trying to pretend at being a grown-up. It's just icky as hell no matter which way you spin it.

 

[Gay Sex Enjoyer]

It is evident that Clayface was originally designed within the Matt Reeves universe. The set features various elements from the Batman franchise, including the Bat-symbol and newspapers referencing fictional drugs from the Batman and the penguin.

 

[Incecticyder]

I'd settle for a Superman that is afforded a baseline level of competency that other heroes are given AKA he can fight and is quite intelligent. Let him do his own science stuff and don't have him struggle with the most piss-weak enemies and groan in pain from hits that shouldn't even phase him. Superman has really been done a disservice by the "he's OP" meme.

You can have him struggle by having him try to save the villain and the innocent from his own power. He COULD punch the mechasuit with enough force to sent it to Pluto but he is trying to arrest the pilot so he holds back. "World of Cardboard." Have him try not to destroy buildings. It isn't hard to make Superman struggle.

 

[ArthuriusMartyrius]

You can have him struggle by having him try to save the villain and the innocent from his own power. He COULD punch the mechasuit with enough force to sent it to Pluto but he is trying to arrest the pilot so he holds back. "World of Cardboard." Have him try not to destroy buildings. It isn't hard to make Superman struggle.

I get the general idea but they go way overboard. I'm really way past bored of scenes where Superman walks in, villain shoots some kind of laser thingy at him and Superman takes the hit then keels over because surprise, surprise, it was a kryptonite/red sun/magic laser thingy and Superman was apparently too stupid to dodge with his insane reflexes or do the bare minimum of scanning with his super-vision and subsequent critical thinking to deduce that the villain was, in fact, holding a kryptonite/red sun/magic laser thingy. Then you will get people defending this stupidity with "Superman would rather take the hits himself than risk innocents being injured" despite the fact that, again, SUPERMAN HAS SUPER-SPEED AND REFLEXES and a functional brain so he should be able to figure out how to get innocents out of the way of the villain's kryptonite/red sun/magic laser thingy without needing to tank hits.

As for "holding back", there's a difference between holding back so much that his blows have virtually zero effect and just holding back enough to KO the guy without pulverizing him. Almost every other hero is afforded this basic storytelling competency but Superman rarely is for some reason. Even Supergirl doesn't suffer from this.

 

[Incecticyder]

I get the general idea but they go way overboard. I'm really way past bored of scenes where Superman walks in, villain shoots some kind of laser thingy at him and Superman takes the hit then keels over because surprise, surprise, it was a kryptonite/red sun/magic laser thingy and Superman was apparently too stupid to dodge with his insane reflexes or do the bare minimum of scanning with his super-vision and subsequent critical thinking to deduce that the villain was, in fact, holding a kryptonite/red sun/magic laser thingy. Then you will get people defending this stupidity with "Superman would rather take the hits himself than risk innocents being injured" despite the fact that, again, SUPERMAN HAS SUPER-SPEED AND REFLEXES and a functional brain so he should be able to figure out how to get innocents out of the way of the villain's kryptonite/red sun/magic laser thingy without needing to tank hits.

I think it is fine for him to get hit once or twice. A lifetime of invulnerability can dull reflexes. The idea that weapons can hurt him can be new to him. The issue is that it works every time. Have him notice that his opponent has a sci-fi-looking gun and be suspicious after a while. Or have him chase a villain into a trap that works on him. This trope can work on Superman as he is vulnerable to magic as well. Thing is, writers get lazy.

As for "holding back", there's a difference between holding back so much that his blows have virtually zero effect and just holding back enough to KO the guy without pulverizing him. Almost every other hero is afforded this basic storytelling competency but Superman rarely is for some reason. Even Supergirl doesn't suffer from this.

You can have him test the strength of the material by gradually increasing the power of his punches. He also has to make sure to punch the bad guys in such a way that they don't run into buildings.

 

[draggs]

I get the general idea but they go way overboard. I'm really way past bored of scenes where Superman walks in, villain shoots some kind of laser thingy at him and Superman takes the hit then keels over because surprise, surprise, it was a kryptonite/red sun/magic laser thingy and Superman was apparently too stupid to dodge with his insane reflexes or do the bare minimum of scanning with his super-vision and subsequent critical thinking to deduce that the villain was, in fact, holding a kryptonite/red sun/magic laser thingy. Then you will get people defending this stupidity with "Superman would rather take the hits himself than risk innocents being injured" despite the fact that, again, SUPERMAN HAS SUPER-SPEED AND REFLEXES and a functional brain so he should be able to figure out how to get innocents out of the way of the villain's kryptonite/red sun/magic laser thingy without needing to tank hits.

Superman is already boring af because of how OP he is. He has to have some kind of vulnerability that awkshully works or he'd be even more boring. It isn't 1939, Superman facetanking everything with no (or only the slightest) difficulty isn't exciting like it was then

As for "holding back", there's a difference between holding back so much that his blows have virtually zero effect and just holding back enough to KO the guy without pulverizing him. Almost every other hero is afforded this basic storytelling competency but Superman rarely is for some reason. Even Supergirl doesn't suffer from this.

Again, Superman is so OP that lowkey he is almost always holding back because if he didn't the fight would be over in a fraction of a second, he'd be Omni-Man with his opponent a red smear all over his suit and the ground before the fight even started. Superman not holding back is rightly portrayed as some speshul occasion. I think you underestimate how difficult it is to make a fight involving what is basically a demigod (at least) interesting. Supergirl is weaker enough that she can be vulnerable in most fights and I don't remember her fights against regular humans or others significantly weaker than her being any different from Superman's

 

[Ultraman Orb Dark]

I get the general idea but they go way overboard. I'm really way past bored of scenes where Superman walks in, villain shoots some kind of laser thingy at him and Superman takes the hit then keels over because surprise, surprise, it was a kryptonite/red sun/magic laser thingy and Superman was apparently too stupid to dodge with his insane reflexes or do the bare minimum of scanning with his super-vision and subsequent critical thinking to deduce that the villain was, in fact, holding a kryptonite/red sun/magic laser thingy. Then you will get people defending this stupidity with "Superman would rather take the hits himself than risk innocents being injured" despite the fact that, again, SUPERMAN HAS SUPER-SPEED AND REFLEXES and a functional brain so he should be able to figure out how to get innocents out of the way of the villain's kryptonite/red sun/magic laser thingy without needing to tank hits.

As for "holding back", there's a difference between holding back so much that his blows have virtually zero effect and just holding back enough to KO the guy without pulverizing him. Almost every other hero is afforded this basic storytelling competency but Superman rarely is for some reason. Even Supergirl doesn't suffer from this.

Reminds me of an episode of Superman and Lois where Luthor lures Clark into a place full of red sun lamps that strip him of his powers. Clark then proceeds to beat the shit out of Luthor because the evil genius had no other weapons and assumed he could beat Clark with no powers.

 

[ArthuriusMartyrius]

Superman is already boring af because of how OP he is. He has to have some kind of vulnerability that awkshully works or he'd be even more boring. It isn't 1939, Superman facetanking everything with no (or only the slightest) difficulty isn't exciting like it was then

I've already pointed out that this kind of thinking is exactly why Superman is always written to be way less competent than he should be. "Superman is OP" is not something that has been valid for about 40 years now.

I think it is fine for him to get hit once or twice. A lifetime of invulnerability can dull reflexes. The idea that weapons can hurt him can be new to him. The issue is that it works every time. Have him notice that his opponent has a sci-fi-looking gun and be suspicious after a while. Or have him chase a villain into a trap that works on him. This trope can work on Superman as he is vulnerable to magic as well. Thing is, writers get lazy.

Superman isn't really "invulnerable", he is just very durable. This kind of logic does not apply to the multitude of other heroes that have similar or greater power sets to Superman because their durability doesn't dull their instincts so I strenuously object to the notion that it should apply to Superman as well.