Debate the differences and usefulness of many different kinds of ammo and weaponry

[Scotched up Scott]

I wonder if in NATO/US Shadow Empire/Globohomo's attempts to keep American Hegemony alive, have done nothing but reduce it more effectively than the USSR could ever achieve.

this would line up partly with why the USSR fell. the US is trying too hard to be everywhere and to continually export bullshit to the rest of the world. the USSR tried the same thing and ultimately it rotted the country to the core and it couldn't handle keeping up such an empire. could be me just being fucken a tard tho.

 

[VargReallyDidNothingWrong]

So what I am getting out of the past few pages is that America has the capability, but not the willpower or strategic smarts to pull it off in manufacturing guns and bombs and whatever.

America HAD that capability 20-30 years ago, it seems like. It would appear that decades of graft and decay and an overlarge importance given to inventing all manner of high tech wunderwaffen has destroyed the actual manufacturing capability of the US military. Why have 6 tank-building factories if we only need to build 50 tanks a year? Why have a munitions factory that can churn out hundreds of thousands of 155mm artillery shells if we only use 3000 a month?

Add to that the fact that supply chains have been suffering ever since COVID and are undoubtedly also affected by the war and sanctions, and you're left with what you see.

 

[Got Milk!]

Making shell casings by hand on a CNC lathe has about as much to do with military production as handwritten manuscript does with 100 million copies of the Bible being printed at a commercial printing factory.

One of you fine ammo fags specifically mentioned manufacturing 5.56 ammo casings in the US. Also, CNC means computer numerical control aka automated. There is no "by hand" about it. Literally the next sentence after your quote says as much.

"I could set up a cnc lathe with a shotgun loader with 10-12 16ft rods of material ready spin them off automatically"

 ETA: which is exactly how military level production would be performed.

 

[VargReallyDidNothingWrong]

One of you fine ammo fags specifically mentioned manufacturing 5.56 ammo casings in the US. Also, CNC means computer numerical control aka automated. There is no "by hand" about it. Literally the next sentence after your quote says as much.

"I could set up a cnc lathe with a shotgun loader with 10-12 16ft rods of material ready spin them off automatically"

Manufacturing shell casings doesn't require any lathe operations at all, as far as I can tell. It's all extrusion or drawing, and then stamping. Machining each case on a lathe out of a piece of brass would be retardedly wasteful and time consuming.

I realize that CNC machines don't need anything done "by hand", I guess I should have said "one at a time".

 

[Krokodil Overdose]

America HAD that capability 20-30 years ago, it seems like. It would appear that decades of graft and decay and an overlarge importance given to inventing all manner of high tech wunderwaffen has destroyed the actual manufacturing capability of the US military. Why have 6 tank-building factories if we only need to build 50 tanks a year? Why have a munitions factory that can churn out hundreds of thousands of 155mm artillery shells if we only use 3000 a month?

Add to that the fact that supply chains have been suffering ever since COVID and are undoubtedly also affected by the war and sanctions, and you're left with what you see.

That, and the last two decades and change have been a shift away from mind blowing mass production in general. On the management side you get fads like lean and just-in-time which save you a bunch of money when everyone executes perfectly and snaps your supply chain like a twig when something goes wrong like, say, COVID. On the government side, we've had a military culture shifting away from expectations of massed combat to playing Whack-A-Mole with under equipped hajjis in the middle of fucking nowhere and no real capacity to fight back, while the civilian side of the MIC has embraced ever expanding graft and goldbricking to the point where deliverables are secondary to sucking the right dicks.

It's kind of funny to me, but the concept of governmental Jihads seems to be something that exists purely within egalitarian ideologies. Other than Liberalism and Communism, I can't really think of any other governmental forms in history which have considered it a moral imperative to forcefully evangelize. That's likely one of the reasons why they're both so openly hostile to religion. They themselves are closer to humanistic cults than they are to legitimate forms of government.

You find True Believers everywhere, and the ones who can claw their way to the top of organizations that require true belief can always find a justification for their actions- the Cromwellian conquest of Ireland was framed in moral terms, while Imperial China's invasion of Vietnam and the Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere were framed in "civilizing" terms.

One unifying aspect of these regimes is that they're unstable, since if the system lets deranged puritans seize control of the steering wheel it's probably beyond saving.

 

[Male Idiot]

thats because the DoD is full of retarded trannies...


The problem is that the US never had a good battle rifle... and now they have a strange heavy assault rifle and a light assault rifle that is to weak to shot anything but goatfuckers...


but full sized bullets are so heavy....


the romanians stole everything that was send there, than the gypsis stole everything but the shoes from the reporters who were send there to report on it.

Fren, why are you listing gypsies and romanians as separate? It is like pineapples and ananas.

On the upside, the fact that China and India are loosening the hate should be a massive, heh, red flag to Waahington.

Chinks and poos HATE each other. They have to think they are under existential threat and must do realpolitik hard to avoid it.


A good chunk of Washington's early post cold war success was, countries thinking that the jackboot was not kicking as hard as the soviet one. Now that has reversed, and Soviet boot looks more and more nostalgic with every second.

Soviet boot tasted shit, but they had public safety and delegalised homos. Now we got no public safety and children are being homod. US (((boot))) tastes of shit, cum, piss and aids.

 

[tulskij_tochnyj]

Sneedmore and .300blk are meme calibers and more comparable to the Russian 9x39 round. The 7.62x39 round is obsoleted by 9x39 for the purposes you mentioned. There are several compatibility issues between AKM/AK74 variants such as the AK74M needing a different rear trunnion than the AKS-74 where with M16/M4 variants a receiver can easily accept whatever is in mass use. On your last point can you find a single example in the last 50 years of the US needing to issue riflemen two seperate cartridges for their standard issue rifle/carbine?

It's not obsoleted. Both 7.62x39 and 9x39 can't penetrate modern body armor, but 7.62 is better for shooting at moving targets and has much better ballistics overall. Plus, there are subsonic 7.62x39 loads available, at least on commercial market. Russian special forces have been using both suppressed AKMs and VSS since the '90s.

 

[Yak-130 Mitten]

It's not obsoleted. Both 7.62x39 and 9x39 can't penetrate modern body armor, but 7.62 is better for shooting at moving targets and has much better ballistics overall. Plus, there are subsonic 7.62x39 loads available, at least on commercial market. Russian special forces have been using both suppressed AKMs and VSS since the '90s.

Why is 7.62 worse over 5.45? From physics perspective it should have more punching power, shouldnt it?

 

[The Foxtrot]

Why is 7.62 worse over 5.45? From physics perspective it should have more punching power, shouldnt it?

9x39mm can absolutely penetrate modern body armor, as can 7.62x39mm. He's completely full of shit.

 

[tulskij_tochnyj]

Why is 7.62 worse over 5.45? From physics perspective it should have more punching power, shouldnt it?

7.62x39 is slower and has heavier bullet than 5.45, hence worse penetration and ballistics.

9x39mm can absolutely penetrate modern body armor, as can 7.62x39mm. He's completely full of shit.

At point blank, yes.

 

[The Foxtrot]

7.62x39 is slower and has heavier bullet than 5.45, hence worse penetration and ballistics.

Slower and heavier, yes. Worse penetration and ballistics? Not sure what the hell you mean, I've never had an issue when testing 7.62x39mm against armor plates and mock-ups of light cover on a range. 7.62x39mm isn't as precise as 5.45x39mm, but it's going to ruin your day a lot more. And no, 5.45x39mm might in specific circumstances have better "penetration", but I can shoot 7.62 at something and it'll still be lethal, while 5.45 in the same situation is just going to NOT penetrate, or it'll penetrate but be so deformed it might as well just be spall.

Thing is, maybe you aren't aware, but Class IV (NIJ) plates, which is what most dudes wear when they talk about "hard armor", are meant to stop full-power rifle bullets. So any intermediate cartridge isn't going to work very well at all, that's the point. Any plate that's supposed to stop 7.62x39mm will laugh at 5.45x39mm.

At point blank, yes.

Which is precisely where the VSS/AS VAL is supposed to be used at, it's a close range special purpose rifle for door kickers.

 

[VargReallyDidNothingWrong]

Both 7.62x39 and 9x39 can't penetrate modern body armor, but 7.62 is better for shooting at moving targets and has much better ballistics overall.

1. Caliber alone says nothing, you need to specify the actual cartridge used. M193 vs M855A1 for example.
2. What is "modern body armor"? Level IV NIJ? UHWMPE or ceramic or some combination? Different calibers do better against different types of armor, even if they're both in the same NIJ protection level.

GOST 5a armor is rated to stop 7.62x39 API ammo (БЗ - бронебойно зажигательная), whereas GOST 4 is rated for 5.45x39 Enhanced Penetration (ПП - повышенная пробиваемость).

That said, the whole point of armor is to have it be tough enough to where your enemy's most used calibers are not able to just blow right through it. NIJ IV is tough enough to stop .30-06 black tip AP, which is significantly more muzzle energy than any intermediate cartridge could hope to have. No intermediate cartridge is getting through that, be it 5.45, 7.62 or 9x39. If the existence of NIJ IV armor meant anything that couldn't penetrate it was obsolete, we'd all be carrying around Barretts and PTRS-41's.

 

[WelfareNiggerQueen]

.308 Winchester is the best cartridge. Everything else is gay and for faggots

 

[The Foxtrot]

.308 Winchester is the best cartridge. Everything else is gay and for faggots

7.62x51mm NATO*. .308 Winchester is the bullshit civilian version.

Although .303 British is 'ery nais too.

 

[WelfareNiggerQueen]

7.62x51mm NATO*. .308 Winchester is the bullshit civilian version.

Although .303 British is 'ery nais too.

7.62 NATO is the Antichrist's version of .308 Winchester.

 

[The Foxtrot]

7.62 NATO is the Antichrist's version of .308 Winchester.

Real men use 7.62x51mm NATO in a proper battle rifle they can disassemble and clean in their sleep.
Useless shitwork bitches who want to pretend they're "country" as they live in a goddamn trailer park use .308 Winchester in their shitty "deer rifles" that have never been cleaned or disassembled once.

 

[tulskij_tochnyj]

1. Caliber alone says nothing, you need to specify the actual cartridge used. M193 vs M855A1 for example.
2. What is "modern body armor"? Level IV NIJ? UHWMPE or ceramic or some combination? Different calibers do better against different types of armor, even if they're both in the same NIJ protection level.

1. Hardened steel core bullet in both cases.
2. Not steel/titanium armor from the 80s (which were at best NIJ Type III). The main reason for designing 9x39 was the ability to penetrate contemporary NATO BA and helmets, while remaining subsonic. To put this into perspective, the only subsonic weapon Soviet Special Forces had before 9x39mm came into play, was a fucking silenced pistol.

 

[WelfareNiggerQueen]

Real men use 7.62x51mm NATO in a proper battle rifle they can disassemble and clean in their sleep.
Useless shitwork bitches who want to pretend they're "country" as they live in a goddamn trailer park use .308 Winchester in their shitty "deer rifles" that have never been cleaned or disassembled once.

>His battle rifle isn't chambered in .308 Winchester
>He probably owns an M1A because of the internet memes about Nigger hawk down
NGMI

 

[VargReallyDidNothingWrong]

The misguided idea my fellow Burgermutts have that war can somehow be separated from the civilians is infuriating.

Americans watching a 1,000,000 Iraqi civilians get killed over the war in Iraq:
Americans watching 8,000 Ukrainian civilians get killed from collateral damage in Ukraine:

1. Hardened steel core bullet in both cases.
2. Not steel/titanium armor from the 80s (which were at best NIJ Type III). The main reason for designing 9x39 was the ability to penetrate contemporary NATO BA and helmets, while remaining subsonic. To put this into perspective, the only subsonic weapon Soviet Special Forces had before 9x39mm came into play, was a fucking silenced pistol.

1. See my updated comment above. There isn't an intermediate cartridge, "armor piercing" or not, that will reliably defeat NIJ IV armor. Using that as a metric of whether or not something is effective is not (in my opinion) very relevant, because in most cases the plate covers a relatively small part of your body and you cannot extend that level 4 protection everywhere because it would simply be impossible to fight in.

2. By the time the 9x39 was developed, Soviet special forces had been using the PBS-1 suppressor on their 7.62 rifles with subsonic ammo for almost 2 decades. Hell they had a suppressed underbarrel grenade launcher complex for the AKM at that time. IDK where you're getting the info that they didn't have anything suppressed aside from pistols.

 

[Yak-130 Mitten]

1. Hardened steel core bullet in both cases.
2. Not steel/titanium armor from the 80s (which were at best NIJ Type III). The main reason for designing 9x39 was the ability to penetrate contemporary NATO BA and helmets, while remaining subsonic. To put this into perspective, the only subsonic weapon Soviet Special Forces had before 9x39mm came into play, was a fucking silenced pistol.

Right. I forgot nothing new was done in USSR/Russia since 1980.