Debate the differences and usefulness of many different kinds of ammo and weaponry

[Midwit]

Fuck standardisation, bring back the BAR and .30-06. If the Euros complain make them use it too.

 

[Scotched up Scott]

Fuck standardisation, bring back the BAR and .30-06. If the Euros complain make them use it too.

well you say that but the HCAR exists and is an updated bar to be able to take all your autistic attachies.

 

[Falcos_Commisar]

the m27 is an AR platform gun. the only real difference is a change to a short stroke piston instead of the mind numbingly retarded direct impingement system used by the stock AR, but for all intents and purposes its an AR

It's stupid, heavy and retardedly overpriced.

It's recoil impulse fucked up the BCG because, newsflash, the AR platform was designed as an excellent DI system from day 1.

Leave it to H&K to fuck it up.

If you're making a piston seven rifle, make it long stroke or at least don't stuff a piston into an M4/M16 for no fucking reason, make a fucking clean sheet design.

 

[Scotched up Scott]

It's stupid, heavy and retardedly overpriced.

It's recoil impulse fucked up the BCG because, newsflash, the AR platform was designed as an excellent DI system from day 1.

Leave it to H&K to fuck it up.

If you're making a piston seven rifle, make it long stroke or at least don't stuff a piston into an M4/M16 for no fucking reason, make a fucking clean sheet design.

oh dont get me wrong. the m416 is a retarded homunculus shambling around. but DI is fucken dumb as it speeds up fouling in the chamber. all in all the AR platform still has its issues dispite being kept alive for decades. stoner ain't no john browning.

 

[Falcos_Commisar]

oh dont get me wrong. the m416 is a retarded homunculus shambling around. but DI is fucken dumb as it speeds up fouling in the chamber. all in all the AR platform still has its issues dispite being kept alive for decades. stoner ain't no john browning.

Clean your goddamn rifle (after 1000+) rounds and you're fine. The moment the M16A1 came along and also had a magical cleaning kit the jamming almost completely stopped.

BCM showed that an DI AR can got 67,000 fucking rounds without failure. Good enough.

DI keeps your reciprocating mass low and allows for better packaging and less weight.

You want a piston driven rifle? Make one from a clean sheet like a MCX (aahaha), AR-18, FNC (it's shit), or a Daewoo K2.

 

[LeChampion1992]

The 5.56 is not a garbage round and one of the world's most effective anti infantry calibers.
The 7.62x39 is a decent middle of the road rifle round.
The 7.62 NATO is not an assault rifle caliber round. It uses a full size rifle round.
Most people call their magazine's clips and don't understand that clips are a more or less outdated concept that left the world in the 1950s era with cheat stamped metal magazines.

The BAR was made for walking fire and is shit at being a squad automatic weapon. There is a reason it was more or less replaced by the M60. There is no semi automatic fire but automatic and rapid automatic fire.

The SKS is almost as common as the AK-47 and is just as good of a rifle.

The M1 carbine isn't a garbage gun it's just a carbine. It's meant to be an in-between for rifle and pistol range. When you understand the M1 carbine was meant to be used only to 150 yards as it's effective range, meanwhile the Garand rifle was effective up to 800 yards and there are thousands of cases of marines and army soldiers engaging in effective fire in WW2 with iron sights up to 500-600 yards.

Yes assault rifles are real and a real term.
It means selective fire, and it uses an intermediate cartridge. The stg -44 used its own 7.92 ammo, the AK-47 uses 7.62x39 which is an intermediate cartridge round.

Assault weapons are a media term. Assault rifles are not a media term and a justified term to use.

 

[Falcos_Commisar]

Americans watching a 1,000,000 Iraqi civilians get killed over the war in Iraq:
Americans watching 8,000 Ukrainian civilians get killed from collateral damage in Ukraine:


1. See my updated comment above. There isn't an intermediate cartridge, "armor piercing" or not, that will reliably defeat NIJ IV armor. Using that as a metric of whether or not something is effective is not (in my opinion) very relevant, because in most cases the plate covers a relatively small part of your body and you cannot extend that level 4 protection everywhere because it would simply be impossible to fight in.

2. By the time the 9x39 was developed, Soviet special forces had been using the PBS-1 suppressor on their 7.62 rifles with subsonic ammo for almost 2 decades. Hell they had a suppressed underbarrel grenade launcher complex for the AKM at that time. IDK where you're getting the info that they didn't have anything suppressed aside from pistols.

99% of those Iraqis were killing in bombings by Jihadi retards and by sectarian death squads with Iraqi citizenship (lol)

All these posts were originally in the Russian Ukraine war thread specifically discussing the relative obsolescence of certain calibers used in those countries. Civilian use never factored into the discussion.

Well then everyone here should know that in a conventional war after say 1905 the infantry rifle didn't mean all that much and that HE in the from of mortar and artillery fire kills the most people, NOT small arms. Even in modern insurgencies one side is using mines and IEDs as their primary killing device.

I have a Makarov PM and an AKM. Shotguns are terrible for home protection, especially the fabled 12gauge, for most of the population.

Mine is a Makarov. Small enough to conceal easily, big enough to get a good hold on. When coupled with Hornady Critical Defense HP 9x18mm, it makes a good (if a bit obsolete) concealable handgun.

My AK is my "all in one"/"general purpose rifle". Zombies, aliens, demons, ANTIFA(ggots), doesn't matter, you can never go wrong with a trusty Kalashnikov.

If I need to reach out and touch someone, I'll take either my G3 or my SMLE No.1 Mk.III. For hunting, the SMLE every time, that bayonet comes in handy when the animal's dangerous. For hypothetically shooting man-sized targets at 600+ meters, my G3 (which I have set up as a DMR) works wonders.

I have an AR-15 in 5.56, but that's out of obligation. I.E., I'd be a fool to not have a good 5.56x45mm gun in inventory.

The G3 is ass, has a retarded operating method that NO ONE ELSE uses because it's was based off a shitty design from the tail end of WW2 that only exists because some fascist Spanish guys at CETME liked it. It chews brass so enjoy never reloading. It's also stupid heavy and amusingly inaccurate compared to an AR-10.

 

[Scotched up Scott]

It's also stupid heavy and amusingly inaccurate compared to an AR-10.

god the AR 10 that a rifle i can get behind. its the perfect battle rifle for the modern battlefield. light, can hold all your attachies, and just like the ar-15 that's based off it its super modular and can be modded to fit the operator/mission. its a great gun, but with the release of 6.8 I almost feel as the US made a mistake in investing in its little brother.

 

[LeChampion1992]

Americans watching a 1,000,000 Iraqi civilians get killed over the war in Iraq:
Americans watching 8,000 Ukrainian civilians get killed from collateral damage in Ukraine:

America successfully invaded and secured Iraq, they just failed to keep the peace.

Even when the Americans were at their most dickish, they still didn't kill as many civilians as the Russians are currently doing. There is a difference between people literally killing eachother in a civil war that's being exacerbated by it's neighbors and a side deciding to drag out the WW2 Soviet pogam solution.

Real men use 7.62x51mm NATO in a proper battle rifle they can disassemble and clean in their sleep.
Useless shitwork bitches who want to pretend they're "country" as they live in a goddamn trailer park use .308 Winchester in their shitty "deer rifles" that have never been cleaned or disassembled once.

There is a reason why assault rifles are better then battle rifles. You have both the sub machine gun and rifle combined with an assault rifle and it's easier to control an intermediate cartridge at burst or automatic fire. You just have a dumb boomer take like the M14 was muh greatest service rifle ever despite it being replaced by the M16 for a reason.

if in this thread we add civi use to calibers. 9mm is THE pistol and self defense caliber. since its plentiful and your common attacker is unlikely to be using any form of armor save for a thick leather jacket. oddly .300BLK is a good home defense round due to it being heavy but slow meaning it'll lose most of its energy when it pens anything. add on the fact it was made for short rifles and enclosed spaces it'll treat you right every time. light shotgun loads work just as well here as they will pepper you attacker and really fuck em up.

The 9mm caliber is basically the most effective and useful international calibers out there. It has been proven effective in sub machine guns,machine pistols and self defense situations. It's a perfect caliber that even a small framed individual can effectively use. While it isn't muh 45 with muh stopping powah it's still a decent caliber. There is a reason 9mm Glocks/Berettas are used by 9/% of the police departments in the United States.

 

[The Foxtrot]

The G3 is ass, has a retarded operating method that NO ONE ELSE uses because it's was based off a shitty design from the tail end of WW2 that only exists because some fascist Spanish guys at CETME liked it. It chews brass so enjoy never reloading. It's also stupid heavy and amusingly inaccurate compared to an AR-10.

Incorrect.
"Stupid heavy"? Okay femboy with twigs for arms.
"amusingly inaccurate compared to an AR-10"? Someone has never actually used a G3.

There is a reason why assault rifles are better then battle rifles. You have both the sub machine gun and rifle combined with an assault rifle and it's easier to control an intermediate cartridge at burst or automatic fire. You just have a dumb boomer take like the M14 was muh greatest service rifle ever despite it being replaced by the M16 for a reason.

Did you miss the part where I specifically stated my AKM is my general purpose rifle, while my G3 has a specific niche? Or that I've previously called the M1A/M14 relics from WW2?

"dumb boomer take"? Really? How old are you, fucking 12?

 

[Falcos_Commisar]

god the AR 10 that a rifle i can get behind. its the perfect battle rifle for the modern battlefield. light, can hold all your attachies, and just like the ar-15 that's based off it its super modular and can be modded to fit the operator/mission. its a great gun, but with the release of 6.8 I almost feel as the US made a mistake in investing in its little brother.

Ehh the 6.8x51mm is ridiculously close to a .300 Win mag so nothing shocking there.

5.56mm means lighter rifle, lighter ammo,.more ammo per mag, and yeah, less recoil so full auto is more useful.

Take a 7.5lb rifle and add 3 lbs of shit to it. 10.5lbs

Take a 9lb rifle and add 3lbs of shit.... 13lb rifle

That adds up really fast. Oh and the heavier rifle has 20 or MAYBE 25 rounds a magazine. You're down 5-10 shots ler magazine while the other guy has 30 no matter if he's shooting 7.62x39, 5.8mm, or 5.45mm. So you're losing an entire magazine of carried rounds for the same weight.

Allegedly the "perfect" intermediate cartridge is actually right about 6mm but sadly that's just too out there for everyone and it would require 100% net new rounds, rifles and lmgs.

As for an full size rifle round it's looks like .30 caliber aka 7.62mm-8mm is basically perfect for 95% of uses barring ULTRA long range shooting.

 

[LeChampion1992]

Incorrect.
"Stupid heavy"? Okay femboy with twigs for arms.
"amusingly inaccurate compared to an AR-10"? Someone has never actually used a G3.

Did you miss the part where I specifically stated my AKM is my general purpose rifle, while my G3 has a specific niche? Or that I've previously called the M1A/M14 relics from WW2?

"dumb boomer take"? Really? How old are you, fucking 12?

My mistake no need to be an angry dick, as for a G3 it's a nice gun but it's has the draw backs of generally being a battle rifle. Need a DMR get a battle rifle, need something that's both smg, rifle, and more close quarters I'll take an intermediate cartridge rifle.

Ehh the 6.8x51mm is ridiculously close to a .300 Win mag so nothing shocking there.

5.56mm means lighter rifle, lighter ammo,.more ammo per mag, and yeah, less recoil so full auto is more useful.

Take a 7.5lb rifle and add 3 lbs of shit to it. 10.5lbs

Take a 9lb rifle and add 3lbs of shit.... 13lb rifle

This is why we use the 5.56, we have switched over nearly all of Nato's rifles and allied nations to the 5.56 caliber. Even the Russian federation and late Soviet Union discovered the AK-74 and it's 5.45 was way more cost effective to supply their troops then the 7.62x39. the Soviet Union which notoriously takes decades to outfit it's troops outfitted nearly 90% of it's armed forces by the late 1980s with AK-74s instead.

That adds up really fast. Oh and the heavier rifle has 20 or MAYBE 25 rounds a magazine. You're down 5-10 shots ler magazine while the other guy has 30 no matter if he's shooting 7.62x39, 5.8mm, or 5.45mm. So you're losing an entire magazine of carried rounds for the same weight.

Allegedly the "perfect" intermediate cartridge is actually right about 6mm but sadly that's just too out there for everyone and it would require 100% net new rounds, rifles and lmgs.

As for an full size rifle round it's looks like .30 caliber aka 7.62mm-8mm is basically perfect for 95% of uses barring ULTRA long range shooting.

Unfortunately logistical supply chains are in place which make the 5.56 too useful of a caliber to be replaced not to mention the mythical 6mm/8mm caliber has been tried before. It was too underpowered the 6mm for many nations rifles during the late 19th and early 20th Century conflicts. Hence why by WW2 countries like Italy and Japan had switched from the mythical 6mm to a 7/7.5mm cartridge

 

[The Foxtrot]

Unfortunately logistical supply chains are in place which make the 5.56 too useful of a caliber to be replaced not to mention the mythical 6mm/8mm caliber has been tried before. It was too underpowered the 6mm for many nations rifles during the late 19th and early 20th Century conflicts. Hence why by WW2 countries like Italy and Japan had switched from the mythical 6mm to a 7/7.5mm cartridge

In my opinion, this "new" 6.8mm bullet the US military is trying to force through is a solution to a problem we already solved 69 years ago. If you want a battle rifle that can reach out 600+ meters, then use a battle rifle. If you want a general purpose rifle, use any of the intermediate caliber rifles. If you want something for close quarters, a submachine gun is the best option for most situations. Different jobs require different tools.

They've been trying since the late 1980s to replace the M16, failing every time, and it feels like some General finally said "Goddammit, we are going to replace the M16 and all its variants, and I will NOT accept any delays or excuses for why we can't do it!".

I personally think the M5/M250 are too expensive, too flashy, and while they might on paper and at the range sound good and perform well, they aren't so good that they merit completely replacing the M16 with. Couple this with the fact that they have 0% parts compatibility with the M16 and its variants, they have very little actual combat testing, and they use a special ammunition, I think it's a terrible idea to decide NOW is the time to phase out the M16 for this, all at once.
I would have, if I was told I was going to replace the M16 with the M5, gradually phased it into service, starting with the Tier 1 units. That way, "Big Army" isn't going to get fucked up the ass logistically if we do go to war, they still have the tried-and-tested M16 & variants.

 

[ForTheHoard]

Ehh the 6.8x51mm is ridiculously close to a .300 Win mag so nothing shocking there.

5.56mm means lighter rifle, lighter ammo,.more ammo per mag, and yeah, less recoil so full auto is more useful.

Take a 7.5lb rifle and add 3 lbs of shit to it. 10.5lbs

Take a 9lb rifle and add 3lbs of shit.... 13lb rifle

That adds up really fast. Oh and the heavier rifle has 20 or MAYBE 25 rounds a magazine. You're down 5-10 shots ler magazine while the other guy has 30 no matter if he's shooting 7.62x39, 5.8mm, or 5.45mm. So you're losing an entire magazine of carried rounds for the same weight.

Allegedly the "perfect" intermediate cartridge is actually right about 6mm but sadly that's just too out there for everyone and it would require 100% net new rounds, rifles and lmgs.

As for an full size rifle round it's looks like .30 caliber aka 7.62mm-8mm is basically perfect for 95% of uses barring ULTRA long range shooting.

Nobody appreciates a light rifle until they have to carry it at the ready for 2 weeks straight when you're already fucking exhausted and hauling 130lbs on your back.

 

[Lev El Shmeckle]

This Thread is gay.
The only caliber that matters and makes me very, very moist is this beauty:

 

[Badungus Kabungus]

The patrician's choice for home defense is an HCAR loaded up with black tips. Something something turning cover into concealment.

 

[The Grognard]

When it comes to old AKs that you have stockpiled and want some extra life out of them, you can just call either Magpul (if friendly with the US) or Zenitco (if friendly with Russia). Both offer quality aftermarket items for any small army to make a decent bulk offer for. If you have armorers capable of gunsmithing, get them to do a refurbishment program that adds a side-rail to them that allows for the use of red-dots and other optics. There's no reason to throw away guns that still go bang and can hit a man-sized target at 300 meters.