DE Drachenlord / Rainer Winkler - 300kg schwerer Metal-Fan aus Mittelfranken

[WWE Champion]

I can see that being the case.
Only thing I'm not sure about is if it even matters what Rainer has said after the first verdict.
I'm not sure if any evidence which is collected after the verdict would even count for an appeal.

Auf Deutsch (weil ich keine Lust habe mein Hirn anzustrengen):
Keine Ahnung ob im Berufungsverfahren überhaupt Beweise und Aussagen bestand haben die nach der Verurteilung getätigt wurden.
Wird bei der Berufung nicht einfach nur alles vorige nochmal aufgerollt?

Ich mach zuerst deutsch, dann englisch. Im Zweifel ist das, was ich auf Deutsch schreibe, gemeint.
Ich bin mir sehr sicher, dass dies zählt. Es ist auch nicht wirklich ein Beweis etc. sondern einfach, wie sich Rainer verhält. Was ihm zu gute kam war die Reue vor Gericht und den Willen, sich zu bessern. Von beidem nimmt er so gleich keine 24h später Abstand und zeigt keine Reue, sondern verhöhnt die "Opfer" noch und macht sogleich all jenes wieder, von was er sich am Tag darauf distanziert hat. Somit fallen zwei gewichtige strafmilderne Umstände weg.


Auch kann man imho neue Beweise immer einbringen, sonst könnte man ja beispielsweise nicht via DNA Test nachträglich noch freigesprochen werden etc.


English: I do think it is importan for the courts what Rainer said on Friday and after, because a main part which reduced his sentence was his expression of remorse and his will to change. What he then did was the opposite, insulting his "victims", complaining about the police and streaming public property. Also new evidence can imho always be used, otherwise you would be kinda fucked if a new evidence would proof your innocence (e.g. DNA test).

 

[NigKid]

Greetings to the da, that woman has a crosshair in her vision. The authors of the game really know how to create suspense

 

[RomanesEuntDomus]

Ich bin mir sehr sicher, dass dies zählt. Es ist auch nicht wirklich ein Beweis etc. sondern einfach, wie sich Rainer verhält. Was ihm zu gute kam war die Reue vor Gericht und den Willen, sich zu bessern. Von beidem nimmt er so gleich keine 24h später Abstand und zeigt keine Reue, sondern verhöhnt die "Opfer" noch und macht sogleich all jenes wieder, von was er sich am Tag darauf distanziert hat. Somit fallen zwei gewichtige strafmilderne Umstände weg.
___
I do think it is importan for the courts what Rainer said on Friday and after, because a main part which reduced his sentence was his expression of remorse and his will to change. What he then did was the opposite, insulting his "victims", complaining about the police and streaming public property. Also new evidence can imho always be used, otherwise you would be kinda fucked if a new evidence would proof your innocence (e.g. DNA test).

Ich denke auch, das Verhalten im Netz wird hier ja nicht als zusätzliches Verbrechen angehängt, sondern als neuer Beweis im alten Fall. Ist halt vermutlich auch nicht ganz so üblich, dass die Justiz es mit einem Deppen zu tun hat, der noch innerhalb der Berufungsfrist so einen Mist abzieht.

I agree, his online behaviour isn't a new crime that he's accused of, it's new evidence relating to the first trial. I guess it's unusual that a suspect is dumb enough to fuck up like this during the timeframe that appeals can be made.

 

[Erich Raeder]

Tbh, I find this a bit excessive on the proscecution's part.
He got sentenced to 2 years in prison.
The proscecution wanted 2 years and 6 months.

An appeal for only 6 months more smells more like a PR move to me.
Now everything need to be rolled up again, witnesses have to travel to the court again and police has to be summoned to protect the court.
Everything just for the prospect of just 6 months more seems a little excessive.

I don’t think the prosecution actually gives a shit about the 6 months, this should be what is called a “Sperrberufung” (not sure if there’s an equivalent concept in the US) where the appeal is taken back if the defender also takes back his appeal.

The thing is Rainer might actually be stupid enough to try his luck in a case where he already showed he is unwilling to change and his remorse was just an act. Hell, it’s not even a given that Rainer gets a judge this empathic again. I’d say it’s almost guaranteed he gets even more time if he appeals now and if he thinks a subsequent revision will save his ass I’m 100% certain this will not be the case.

 

[WWE Champion]

I don’t think the prosecution actually gives a shit about the 6 months, this should be what is called a “Sperrberufung” (not sure if there’s an equivalent concept in the US) where the appeal is taken back if the defender also takes back his appeal.

Could you explain what this means and why it is done? As a Swiss, I have never heard of "Sperrberufung".

 

[NigKid]

The thing is Rainer might actually be stupid enough to try his luck in a case where he already showed he is unwilling to change and his remorse was just an act. Hell, it’s not even a given that Rainer gets a judge this empathic again. I’d say it’s almost guaranteed he gets even more time if he appeals now and if he thinks a subsequent revision will save his ass I’m 100% certain this will not be the case.

He's just wagering his prison time to uphold his illusion of getting out of this. The longer it goes on the better the bang at the end when he realizes that all his options are exhausted.

Could you explain what this means and why it is done? As a Swiss, I have never heard of "Sperrberufung".

Basically the da appeals waits for the ogre to appeal as well to make a deal where both parties take the appeals back. So they probably appealed in anticipation of his appeal. (Appeal doesnt sound like a word anymore...)

 

[malleusmaleficarum]

i thought 2 years was a bit excessive as well, the haiders were trespassing on his property and if someone did that to me I would probably strike them with a flashlight as well.

but it seems like the german legal system thinks differently. here, depending upon the state, you can legally blast someone straight to hell with lead if they happen to be stupid enough to break into your house. not europe though, self defense is criminalized. and you better hope you're not defending yourself against a somali migrant!

 

[NigKid]

but it seems like the german legal system thinks differently. here, depending upon the state, you can legally blast someone straight to hell with lead if they happen to be stupid enough to break into your house. not europe though, self defense is criminalized. and you better hope you're not defending

That's the problem with him tho, almost none of his encounter classify as self defense.
And if someone legitimately threatens your life in Europe all bets are off, you have almost unlimited rights to eliminate the threat.

 

[Rommelbutt]

i thought 2 years was a bit excessive as well, the haiders were trespassing on his property and if someone did that to me I would probably strike them with a flashlight as well.

but it seems like the german legal system thinks differently. here, depending upon the state, you can legally blast someone straight to hell with lead if they happen to be stupid enough to break into your house. not europe though, self defense is criminalized. and you better hope you're not defending yourself against a somali migrant!

He didn't strike them while they were on his property. They were standing on the street and he went after them. In this case he started the fight. (Sometimes he doesn't start the fight but most of the time he runs after the haters even though they just stood around outside of his property)

 

[RomanesEuntDomus]

i thought 2 years was a bit excessive as well, the haiders were trespassing on his property and if someone did that to me I would probably strike them with a flashlight as well.

but it seems like the german legal system thinks differently. here, depending upon the state, you can legally blast someone straight to hell with lead if they happen to be stupid enough to break into your house. not europe though, self defense is criminalized. and you better hope you're not defending yourself against a somali migrant!

Read the thread, man. This stuff has been explained over and over.

German self defense is equal to "stand your ground" self defense in the US and is actually way more lenient to the defender in certain regards. None of the shit Rainer was sentenced for would qualify as self defense under US law either.

 

[WWE Champion]

i thought 2 years was a bit excessive as well, the haiders were trespassing on his property and if someone did that to me I would probably strike them with a flashlight as well.

but it seems like the german legal system thinks differently. here, depending upon the state, you can legally blast someone straight to hell with lead if they happen to be stupid enough to break into your house. not europe though, self defense is criminalized. and you better hope you're not defending yourself against a somali migrant!

the problem is, except for the drunk idiot in his yard, he never hurt somebody inside his property, only when they were outside. If it was only the idiot with the broken glasses, I think the Rainer quote "Da sagt kein Richter der Welt was" would have actually been applied, even if he technically has gone overboard with self defense.

@NigKid what is the advantage of a preemptive appeal if you actually don't want to appeal? That is the part I do not really get. Is this just because Rainer publicly said he does want to appeal, is this for optics ("we appealed first!") or does this have any implications for later?

 

[Erich Raeder]

Basically the da appeals waits for the ogre to appeal as well to make a deal where both parties take the appeals back. So they probably appealed in anticipation of his appeal. (Appeal doesnt sound like a word anymore...)

This is how I understand it. Fun fact: it seems to actually be illicit but there’s nothing you can do about it if the DA decides to fuck you over with it. Funny how law works.

 

[NigKid]

@NigKid what is the advantage of a preemptive appeal if you actually don't want to appeal? That is the part I do not really get. Is this just because Rainer publicly said he does want to appeal, is this for optics ("we appealed first!") or does this have any implications for later?

It gives them more leverage, basically saying we are gonna fuck you but we're nice enough to cut you a deal. It's just intimidation. Though I wouldn't be surprised if the da is genuinely out for blood after those streams

 

[RomanesEuntDomus]

@NigKid what is the advantage of a preemptive appeal if you actually don't want to appeal? That is the part I do not really get. Is this just because Rainer publicly said he does want to appeal, is this for optics ("we appealed first!") or does this have any implications for later?

I'd describe it like this: It's like they are holding a club that they just raised above their head, ready to strike at the ogre. He can shrink back and accept the verdict, knowing that the prosecution could make things even worse for him. I doubt that appealing before the Ogre is actually that relevant, it's more about "We will withdraw our appeal, that could make things worse for you, if you draw back your appeal and just accept the first result."

 

[Padoru]

i thought 2 years was a bit excessive as well, the haiders were trespassing on his property and if someone did that to me I would probably strike them with a flashlight as well.

but it seems like the german legal system thinks differently. here, depending upon the state, you can legally blast someone straight to hell with lead if they happen to be stupid enough to break into your house. not europe though, self defense is criminalized. and you better hope you're not defending yourself against a somali migrant!

the flashlight guy was legally not somebody that was "trespassing" just yet and especially at the time was not posing a threat to Rainer thus under german law THAT was not self-defense

 

[WWE Champion]

Found on Twitter, for the OGs

 

[malleusmaleficarum]

i see... im new to this cow and not up to date with the lore, and also can't read most of the info without the assistance of translators so give me all the puzzle pieces i deserve

but i had another thought that i should've mentioned earlier, is there some kind of German equivalent for the concept of "fighting words?" like, would the haiders and trolls be liable for making him chimp out through their constant provocation?


not trying to defend him of course, just trying to look at it from every legal angle

 

[Fren]

Found on Twitter, for the OGs

Jurabeerchen confirmed

 

[RomanesEuntDomus]

i see... im new to this cow and not up to date with the lore, and also can't read most of the info without the assistance of translators so give me all the puzzle pieces i deserve

but i had another thought that i should've mentioned earlier, but is there some kind of German equivalent for the concept of "fighting words?" like, would the haiders and trolls be liable for making him chimp out through their constant provocation?


not trying to defend him of course, just trying to look at it from every legal angle

Not as a direct counterpart, I guess. But the constant stream of trolls was seen as a strong mitigating factor in the trial that made both the prosecution ask for a softer sentence and made the judge take less than asked for by the prosecution. Both women stated their utter disgust at the "Drachengame".

I guess in German law, "fighting words" as a strong provocation that leads to a fight aren't a thing though. The one to become physically violent first is to blame for the fight, since you're just as easily capable of fighting back with words.

 

[Padoru]

i see... im new to this cow and not up to date with the lore, and also can't read most of the info without the assistance of translators so give me all the puzzle pieces i deserve

but i had another thought that i should've mentioned earlier, is there some kind of German equivalent for the concept of "fighting words?" like, would the haiders and trolls be liable for making him chimp out through their constant provocation?


not trying to defend him of course, just trying to look at it from every legal angle

kind of yes kind of no. Basically that just falls under the general umbrella of bullying and judges generally tend to look favorably upon somebody acting out if it was the result of excessive bullying. This is actually even clearly observable in this case where the judge straight up sentenced some of the witnesses for the shit they did AND she gave the absolutely most lenient punishment to Rainer by going with the prison sentence the defense asked just removing any probation. This is the nicest thing she could have done without outright letting him go effectively unpunished for everything he did