Fallout series

[Tri-Tachyon'sClown]

Why is it the gamers fault for being "too retarded" exactly? Who cares how retardedly people play their single player games?

For the second part, if they kept it to themselves I wouldn't care. Even then I largely still don't but developers, no matter how pozzed, tend to listen to what their core audience mostly does, in this case the core audience of Bethestards does not give the slightly fuck about quality so long as they can shoot people in the face. This can lead to situations where developers either don't bother crafting a well made narrative like New Vegas and just focus on what normies mostly care about, that being the bang bang shoot shoot part of the game, or they hold the hands of the player like they're a "leash child" and heavily restrict the freedom of the thinking player and fools the normies into thinking it's a good narrative because they were forced to engage with it. This would be not be a terrible issue if the gameplay they focus on was actually good, lots of games railroad you and can still be good, but the gameplay mechanics are generic at best. Mostly Fo4 since Fo3 has the same shit gameplay as NV.

However For the first part of this sentence I can simply say "look at the state of gaming." Even then it's less "gamers" because the usual "gamer" shows signs of intelligence, I mostly meant normies who play games. Anyone who supports the current industry is a brainlet normie who is contributing to the next gaming crash. Though to be fair, they don't really know what they do, normies never know what they do until it directly affects them, in which the blame will be cast to someone else. This is a common case throughout history, shepards leading sheep off a cliff and blaming the wolf.

What is actually affecting the industry here? The gamers playing the open world free form RPG how they want to? Or Bethesda changing shit for no good reason and everyone else following suit?

I could spend way too much time stating the many reasons but I'll simply say yesn't. Not so much people playing how they want to but more so people doing the dumbest shit imaginable and insisting it's a good thing, future developers following suit. Best example is of course Bethesda, listening to normies retards and what they want rather than what is actually good, never listen to the broader audience for if you're big enough they will always follow, listen to the people with functioning brain cells. But no, now we have shit like Starfield and Bethestards seething at anyone who calls it rightfully shit. Is it working for them? I mean...do I even have to ask? "Hurr Durr just have fun, don't think about it just consoom" is the core Bethesda audience, any sane person would ignore them since their loyalty is still questionable, the real fans will continue to leave if they haven't already until one wrong move will cost you everything. Many such cases. As for Bethesda changing shit for no reason and the sheep continue to follow...does that question not answer itself?

As far as I can tell, the essential NPC thing stemmed from Bethesda writers being upset that people were ignoring the story and killing characters and being a murderhobo. It was ego (and being lazy about writing a story that can withstand player choice) on the part of Bethesda that led to this change, not gamers "ruining it for everyone". Some fucking niggercattle gamer plays New Vegas and doesn't look at anything and doesn't read anything and just walks around, killing everyone and everything... who fucking cares?

I couldn't sworn I answered this but I'm retarded and forgetful. But yeah you're certain right about the ego and laziness part. But like I think I said, normies "gamers" praise this, think this is good game design, reinforce this behavior. If Niggercattle (man I love that word lol) actually said "hey what the fuck?" and insisted that Bethesda making games similar in structure as their actually good games, we wouldn't be hear shitting on Bethesda. But niggercattle just consoom, and here we are. There are no thoughts in their heads, if someone retard says "it's good" they'll parrot it until that's all they can think of. Tell them that what they think is actually different to reality and watch as they either defend the thoughts put into them by others or start to parrot you.
These are the people keeping these companies that shouldn't gone bankrupt long ago afloat. These are the people jerking off shit like games like Palworld like it's the second coming of Christ when it's just as shit as any other game. Standards are low, and they'll continue to lower until fucking Pong or something gets GOTY simply because it's not the same shit as the last hundred releases of garbage. As for who cares? More should, that's the point. People not caring about the shitfest that their hobbies, games or not, are turning into because they don't want to bother trying to convince the easily fooled normies to raise their standards is also part of the problem. There's a bunch of things we can be doing, but we don't do anything, so even the non-normies like us who are fed up with these niggercattle are also partly to blame.

They also probably had no capacity to pay attention to the story to begin with. Would have been pearls cast before swines anyways.

I've seen normies go from...well normies to slightly less normie by participating in a genuinely good game. Their standards, whether they know or even want to acknowledge this change, are raised. Niggercattle, no matter how much I bash them, are mentally capable if they're given the chance. Modern games don't let them, that's the point of their existence. They are propaganda, They are reinforcing the "right-think" of the wrong people. They create even more niggercattle. Which in turn contributes to this horrible industry until it implodes on itself. Looking throughout history, seeing how normies help great both golden ages and dark ages, you'll understand that all you need to do is to push them in the right direction. They are brainlets, but they can improve, something that the current behavior of normies are actively doing the opposite of. They deserve their slop in dying industry.

I don't think it should surprise anyone that people do this in Fallout games and RPGs in general... even if you're not a murderhobo in New Vegas, don't tell me you have never gotten frustrated with an NPC, quicksaved, shot him in the face and then quickloaded.

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything honestly. Momentarily releasing your annoyance of an NPC in the form of a 12 gauge (or whatever tickles your pickle) and undoing this action is not at all the same as the murderhoboism of an entire game and clapping your hands like a seal at. I'm not sure what the point of this sentence was. And yes I do that sometimes, not often, but sometimes when I'm about to call it quits for the day. Do I save after this? No. Do I do it to the entire game? No. Is it really being a murderhobo if it technically never happened? I'm genuinely curious.

So yes, I will play how I want to play within the ruleset I am provided, including on your tabletop RPG. I will look for exploits, I will think about combinations of skills and equipments and strategies that you did not consider, because finding something that trips up the DM is really, really fun! By all means, adapt to my play style. Set a trap for me, let me wipe, teach me the right mindset so I can progress in the story, but the power struggle (and subsequent hate/love relationship) between the DM and his players is part of what makes RPGs fun - be it a video game or tabletop. If you get upset at your players for doing something you did not plan for, you're just a shit DM... or a shit game designer.

Now you're talking about something different. Looking for exploits, using combinations of skills and equipments that was not considered, and overall tripping a DM is not at all a bad thing. In fact I actively encourage it. I have no idea what you're on about or how this relates to what we were talking about since that's not at all normie faggotry, that's actually using your brain. It helps the DM learn to improvise. If I were to set up an encounter as a DM and you immediately roll to attack-for example for one of my own sessions-the lost child you were sent to rescuse because you're quirky and then complain when the entire party beats you to death before you can do these deed what I was talking about.

Back when I was a forever DM, most of the people I ever hosted for (which weren't many but they were usually completely different people every campaign) were complete and utter murder hobos.

Does this at all sound like:

I will play how I want to play within the ruleset I am provided, including on your tabletop RPG. I will look for exploits, I will think about combinations of skills and equipments and strategies that you did not consider

No, and you're either being disingenuous or straight up retarded if you think that. Not saying you are, but there are surely those that do.

If you get upset at your players for doing something you did not plan for, you're just a shit DM... or a shit game designer.

That is true, but there are massive differences to being a game designer and a DM. For example regarding a DM, if for whatever reason the players decide to be absolutely unlikable spergs who insist on slaughtering an entire town despite their alignment, if your players refuse to engage with anyone and anything beyond an axe to the face, if your players then get pissy that maybe they do...anything else, they should told to get the fuck out of your table. I've done this multiple times, and the quality of the campaign improved immediately. Playing a single player video game by yourself and doing this is one thing, but enough people doing this that developers en masse have to either restrict you unnecessarily or just don't bother with the overall quality of the game if flashy colors, generic """fun""" gameplay that is about as complex as a ham sandwich, and being told "this is a good game" until you parrot it will do the trick...I don't know about you but that's just awful, but it seems that the normies have accepted this and even praise and encourage this while also asking for something new and better. Real gamers know what they want, normies don't.

 

[Tri-Tachyon'sClown]

Double post I know. If you don't want to read all that that's no worries, it's a fuck ton of sperging.

 

[Krayt Dragon]

Not so much people playing how they want to but more so people doing the dumbest shit imaginable and insisting it's a good thing, future developers following suit.

But like I think I said, normies "gamers" praise this, think this is good game design, reinforce this behavior. If Niggercattle (man I love that word lol) actually said "hey what the fuck?" and insisted that Bethesda making games similar in structure as their actually good games, we wouldn't be hear shitting on Bethesda. But niggercattle just consoom, and here we are.

Yes. The audience will do whatever they want and they are consumers, not creators. Being a gamer does not mean you understand game design. It's the creator's responsibility to hold true to their vision and their standards. This isn't the fault of the niggercattle, it is solely and exclusively Bethesda's responsibility. Not like they don't know any better, they dumbed down the game on purpose because they realized they didnt have to try as hard as they have in the past and will still make enough money. Of course you can argue that the modern audience should raise their standards, but that's tilting at windmills. The creators should instead be held to account for exploiting the retardation of modern audiences.

As for who cares? More should, that's the point. People not caring about the shitfest that their hobbies, games or not, are turning into [...]

My "who cares" was directed at people playing New Vegas and killing everyone and not engaging with the story. Of course people should care more about the degradation of everything good in the world, but that's a seperate discussion. My post was entirely about player choice and that it was solely Bethesda's decision to dumb down their game and cater to the normie-retards that resulted in the later games getting dumbed down. Niggercattle can't do better, Bethesda could.

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything honestly. Momentarily releasing your annoyance of an NPC in the form of a 12 gauge (or whatever tickles your pickle) and undoing this action is not at all the same as the murderhoboism of an entire game and clapping your hands like a seal at. I'm not sure what the point of this sentence was.

The point of the sentence is that, if you want to have the ability to go on a killing spree in Freeside, it necessarily means those NPCs need to be killable, and that enables a murderhobo playthrough. That is the price of freedom. There are people who are unable to make effective use of the freedom granted to them, but only when it affects someone else does it need to be dealt with. Didn't say you were a murderhobo, but you're drinking from the same fountain in that instance.

Now you're talking about something different. Looking for exploits, using combinations of skills and equipments that was not considered, and overall tripping a DM is not at all a bad thing. In fact I actively encourage it. I have no idea what you're on about or how this relates to what we were talking about since that's not at all normie faggotry, that's actually using your brain.

It relates in the fact that there are major NPCs in New Vegas that you can kill for strategic purposes, i.e. using your brain. This enables a retard to have his murderhobo playthrough. If you remove his ability to do this (which Bethesda did), it limits the opportunities for the smart player to use their brain.
The reason why I brought up tabletop is because I wanted to relate it to your experience as a DM. Would you take out skills, just because you don't like how players use them? Would you make certain characters unkillable, just because you're scared your players would miss your epic story? Fallout used to be what used to be known as a CRPG, a Computer RPG, and tabletop RPGs were just RPGs. The RPG video games are based on tabletop RPGs, and so they are related.

Me killing Mr. House the absolute first time I see him, for example, is me tripping up the DM and foiling his carefully crafted story. In Fallout 2, there is a build with which you can minmax Luck and Perception to get Sniper, which adds your luck x10 as a Critical Hit Modifier, making you crit with every single hit.

There is nothing comparable to this in later Bethesda games.

No, and you're either being disingenuous or straight up retarded if you think that. Not saying you are, but there are surely those that do.

You were making fun of "I will play how I want", when RPGs are LITERALLY about "I will play what I want". The issue is not that people were "playing how they want and what they wanted was bad", because modern Bethesda games do not actually allow you to play how you want anymore. They railroad you and try to force you into a certain direction, both gameplay and storywise. The stealth-archer is something that happens naturally to everyone who plays Skyrim for a reason.

enough people doing this that developers en masse have to either restrict you unnecessarily or just don't bother with the overall quality of the game if flashy colors, generic """fun""" gameplay that is about as complex as a ham sandwich, and being told "this is a good game" until you parrot it will do the trick...I don't know about you but that's just awful, but it seems that the normies have accepted this and even praise and encourage this while also asking for something new and better. Real gamers know what they want, normies don't.

Of course that is awful. But, again, it was Bethesda's decision. Fallout 4 would have been a giant hit even if it was a better RPG than Fallout NV. They chose the easy route. Players choosing to play these games like retards did not contribute to this change. With Starfield we have seen the end of this road, so obviously they chose wrong. If they chose different, we would have good games and Bethesda wouldn't be a laughing stock. And you know what? The normie niggercattle would also be happy.

Again, my main contention was that I do not believe that poor player choice was the result of Bethesda dumbing down their games and also that they did this to make it "retard-proof." That might be what they claim, but it is untrue. The games are dumbed down, because they are maliciously exploiting the retardation of the vast majority of humanity. They are not crafting amazing ways for everyone to enjoy this game, they are simply not putting in as much effort and trying to get as much money from it as possible. I also feel resentment towards the people enabling this, but it is fruitless to express this resentment. They simply don't know better.

 

[holykentuckyfriedrice]

I can't say I relate with those NV fans on Reddit who claim to have sunk 1000 hours into the game but "never did a Legion run" . Seeing dialogue and events you were locked out of before has always been part of the fun of a role-playing game, personally. I appreciate that at the very least they aren't petitioning to have evil content removed for not being heckin wholesome.

 

[Gorilla Milk]

I can't say I relate with those NV fans on Reddit who claim to have sunk 1000 hours into the game but "never did a Legion run" . Seeing dialogue and events you were locked out of before has always been part of the fun of a role-playing game, personally. I appreciate that at the very least they aren't petitioning to have evil content removed for not being heckin wholesome.

Most of them are people who are trying to, for lack of a belter term, virtue signal about how "I'm such a good person, I won't even do bad things in video games!"

Of course its reddit, though. People like that are incapable of simply playing a video game for fun and disassociating themselves from the player character. Everything they do MUST be a self-insert. Ergo, they will never play an evil character in any video game, because that would mean that they themselves are evil. Same kind of people who demand every romance option in a video game be playersexual because they are incapable of stepping out of their comfort zone and trying anything new.

 

[Bob Barbas]

I can't say I relate with those NV fans on Reddit who claim to have sunk 1000 hours into the game but "never did a Legion run" . Seeing dialogue and events you were locked out of before has always been part of the fun of a role-playing game, personally. I appreciate that at the very least they aren't petitioning to have evil content removed for not being heckin wholesome.

That and general just exploring areas you didn't before or just didn't think to before. There are so many areas and things in NV alone you might miss on a playthrough if you just follow the game's directions.
There are many areas that you basically have no reason to go to but are still interesting to take a look at. If nothing else they usually at least have loot.
I intentionally try to avoid fast traveling and try to go off the path whenever I can for this reason just to see if I discover anything I hadn't before.

Most of them are people who are trying to, for lack of a belter term, virtue signal about how "I'm such a good person, I won't even do bad things in video games!"

It's really weird how that rule only seems to apply to role playing games. The only difference is in those games you have some choice in how you design the character. I mean, I play shooters but I obviously wouldn't be found dead joining the military and going around shooting people.

Quite frankly those people are just retarded.

 

[Big Brown Schlub]

I can't say I relate with those NV fans on Reddit who claim to have sunk 1000 hours into the game but "never did a Legion run" . Seeing dialogue and events you were locked out of before has always been part of the fun of a role-playing game, personally. I appreciate that at the very least they aren't petitioning to have evil content removed for not being heckin wholesome.

The only problem with the Legion run is how bereft of content it is. Having a few more sidequests would've made it way more compelling. It's a shame a lot of their shit got cut due to time constraints.

That and general just exploring areas you didn't before or just didn't think to before. There are so many areas and things in NV alone you might miss on a playthrough if you just follow the game's directions.

Or just trying a different build, or trying a meme build. Last one I did was a Mr. House's yojimbo build where I only used the katana for 90% of the game and it was a blast.

Quite frankly those people are just retarded.

They are small-souled individuals who lack theory of mind, so they can't imagine the in-game player character not being a complete representation of themselves and can't roleplay as anyone but themselves. It's why writing in media in general took a nosedive, all characters are two-dimensional at best (sometimes even main characters end up being one-dimensional characters that's how bad things have gotten) and there's never any character development. We'll never see something like the Sopranos again, a show where all the main characters are disgusting sociopathic murderers and thugs but get humanized so well through showing their various quirks that they end up being likable, sympathetic and even relatable.

 

[Snekposter]

I can't say I relate with those NV fans on Reddit who claim to have sunk 1000 hours into the game but "never did a Legion run" . Seeing dialogue and events you were locked out of before has always been part of the fun of a role-playing game, personally. I appreciate that at the very least they aren't petitioning to have evil content removed for not being heckin wholesome.

I have. Once. And it kinda sucked since there's not much to do.

 

[Bob Barbas]

I have. Once. And it kinda sucked since there's not much to do.

Yeah, that's an issue that both Fallout 3 and New Vegas shared in that there just isn't that much content for evil characters.
I do know for Fallout 3 there was originally going to be an entire raider settlement you could join and they had an arena and shit even you could likely participate in ect. But for whatever reason it all ended up being cut and turned into another generic dungeon.
At least we still got paradise falls but the schtick does get a bit old quickly.

With New Vegas, well we already know the story there. They wanted to have a legion friendly companion but just didn't have time or the disc space to make it happen.
Then they decided to turn that companion into the schizo antagonist of a DLC.

 

[Snekposter]

Yeah, that's an issue that both Fallout 3 and New Vegas shared in that there just isn't that much content for evil characters.
I do know for Fallout 3 there was originally going to be an entire raider settlement you could join and they had an arena and shit even you could likely participate in ect. But for whatever reason it all ended up being cut and turned into another generic dungeon.
At least we still got paradise falls but the schtick does get a bit old quickly.

With New Vegas, well we already know the story there. They wanted to have a legion friendly companion but just didn't have time or the disc space to make it happen.
Then they decided to turn that companion into the schizo antagonist of a DLC.

Yeah, I've looked into the planned Legion stuff they had and it definitely would have shown them in a different light from how they are at the frontlines of a major warzone.

 

[⋖ cørdion ⋗]

Most of them are people who are trying to, for lack of a belter term, virtue signal about how "I'm such a good person, I won't even do bad things in video games!"

Did Bethesda games ever actually reward you for being good/bad outside dialogue choice? RDR2 played hugely into this stat despite being somewhat hidden. I'd fucking love to be a John Iron who shows up and people are like "oh hey it's him" or run away in fear. The entire good/evil concept has just boiled down to evil being faster and easier, and good being longer and more difficult for the sake of rest in your soul (and often better gear).

NV had mediocre writing but it was fun and engaging, but let's not pretend it's a masterclass in writing. So much shit was cut and so many quests just end. Outer Worlds tried to make every single quest super meaningful and it was tiring as shit. We're overloaded with decisions in our daily lives and it's why it's so tiring to be alive. Every single quest doesn't need to end in one of two npcs dying, and that's why bethesda games are good: Nothing fucking lasts. If an NPC dies, it's another NPC that'll stand in their place and say vague things.

 

[Mysterious Autist XX]

Did Bethesda games ever actually reward you for being good/bad outside dialogue choice? RDR2 played hugely into this stat despite being somewhat hidden. I'd fucking love to be a John Iron who shows up and people are like "oh hey it's him" or run away in fear. The entire good/evil concept has just boiled down to evil being faster and easier, and good being longer and more difficult for the sake of rest in your soul (and often better gear).

NV had mediocre writing but it was fun and engaging, but let's not pretend it's a masterclass in writing. So much shit was cut and so many quests just end. Outer Worlds tried to make every single quest super meaningful and it was tiring as shit. We're overloaded with decisions in our daily lives and it's why it's so tiring to be alive. Every single quest doesn't need to end in one of two npcs dying, and that's why bethesda games are good: Nothing fucking lasts. If an NPC dies, it's another NPC that'll stand in their place and say vague things.

NV did have your reputation give you various things such as changing npc interactions and some rewards such as the NCR or Legion safehouses and shit. Does that count as a reward for being good/bad?

 

[Big Brown Schlub]

Did Bethesda games ever actually reward you for being good/bad outside dialogue choice?

Oblivion had a Fame/Infamy system but it had minor repercussions, Fame would raise disposition and infamy would lower it. If your infamy was higher than fame you couldn't pray at shrines and if you had infamy at all you couldn't wear the armor from Knights of the Nine, but as you can imagine that DLC also adds a repeatable quest that clears your infamy every time you did it.

 

[Prophetic Spirit]

NV did have your reputation give you various things such as changing npc interactions and some rewards such as the NCR or Legion safehouses and shit. Does that count as a reward for being good/bad?

Well, technicaly, if you are in negative rep, certain factions attack you on sight.

 

[Mysterious Autist XX]

Well, technicaly, if you are in negative rep, certain factions attack you on sight.

That too, and the NCR and Legion will send hit squads after you too.

 

[Prophetic Spirit]

That too, and the NCR and Legion will send hit squads after you too.

Oh, right. Either following certain paths in the main quest or just negative rep.

 

[Mysterious Autist XX]

Oh, right. Either following certain paths in the main quest or just negative rep.

Shit like that is part of why I love NV. It makes your actions have more weight.

Oblivion had a Fame/Infamy system but it had minor repercussions, Fame would raise disposition and infamy would lower it. If your infamy was higher than fame you couldn't pray at shrines and if you had infamy at all you couldn't wear the armor from Knights of the Nine, but as you can imagine that DLC also adds a repeatable quest that clears your infamy every time you did it.

Said quest did involve going on a pilgrimage across the map to the shrines of the nine.

EDIT: Also it was an unmarked quest, you had to find that shit on your own, unless you use a map you are given at the start of the DLC but those only show one of each shrine and they are super spread out.

 

[Bob Barbas]

Did Bethesda games ever actually reward you for being good/bad outside dialogue choice? RDR2 played hugely into this stat despite being somewhat hidden. I'd fucking love to be a John Iron who shows up and people are like "oh hey it's him" or run away in fear.

I do know in Freeside for example if your reputation is low enough the thugs will be too scared to fuck with you.
There's even one who tries to mug you, realizes it's you and then begs for mercy before running away.

 

[Divine right to rule]

I can't say I relate with those NV fans on Reddit who claim to have sunk 1000 hours into the game but "never did a Legion run" . Seeing dialogue and events you were locked out of before has always been part of the fun of a role-playing game, personally. I appreciate that at the very least they aren't petitioning to have evil content removed for not being heckin wholesome.

I am part of that club.
There never was any RP or gameplay reason for me to do so.
They are rude assholes to you from the beginning, about half of the followers are anti-legion, and not a single one pro-legion, and most characters and settlements get fucked over in a legion ending.
The core idea behind them is interesting as a foil to the NCR, but you never actually see them doing anything positive that would justify their brutal way of warfare.

They suffer from content drought, and that really fucks them. They are just too antagonistic to be a viable faction choice for me.

 

[God of Nothing]

i laugh at you all as i hunt ncr and cash in their dogtags for more weapons to hunt ncr with, creating an infinite loop of hunting ncr until there is no longer ncr