Feminism discussion thread

[Group Project Carrier]

This is why I think that everything after the second wave went to shit.

Just to clear something up quickly--the "feminist movement" that shills for trannies and aims to "include them among women" is the 3rd wave specifically.

The 4th wave, which chronologically started after the 3rd wave but has not technically replaced it (by this I mean--both waves are happening concurrently right now, and the 3rd wave despite being slightly older is still the more prevalent) is, very explicitly, against the entire "trans women are women" idea, and views men's abilities to weasel their way into anything female-exclusive--sports, job positions, the lesbian dating scene, sororities, and even bathrooms and changing rooms--as a horrible thing.

 

[Lidl Drip]

Feminists are sooooo stooopid!!! This is why I am not like other girls, I would never be such a nagging old ugly dyke who just goes "blah blah I don't want to be raped and murdered blah blah" all the men I know wouldn't even rape and murder you cause you are FAT and not hot like me. And anyways men getting falsely accused of rape is a much bigger issue. That's why I am a Men's Rights Activist instead, because I know we live in a GYNOCRACY run by KARENS. You catty Karens probably don't even enjoy Warhammer and eating a whole pizza unlike me. Meow meow go screeching at each other all day while me and the boys laugh at our farts, that's what real humor is btw. Anyways I am gonna shut up now cause nobody wants to hear women talk teeheeheehee! XD going to make a sandwich for a MAN!

Uhm... HELLO??? BOYs you may winner-sticker my post now??? Do you not see I epically owned those feminazi's for you??? Where are my stickers and coolgirl reward points?? Ugh!

 

[Stan]

The 4 Bs (4 "no"s if you had to convert the idea into English) are--no sex with men, no marriage, no child-bearing or rearing, and no dating.

This sounds similar to lesbian separatism, which was a 3rd wave American feminist movement that wasn't that successful. It preached female solidarity, which involved going all Lysistrata on the men and only dating and having sex with other women.

It's interesting to hear that it's coming back in force in Asia, but then again, Asian women have it a lot worse in terms of sexist treatment. Asian women are held to much stricter standards, the men are much less inhibited, and the women historically backbite each other (fatshaming, slutshaming, etc.) more viciously than in the West. This is in part because Confucian culture is explicitly sexist and regards girls as an economic burden. In China at least (not sure about S. Korea) women have had equal rights on paper since the Revolution, but in practice equality is slow in coming. So I'm not surprised to hear the women are doing this, they've been patiently waiting for enfranchisement long enough.

Because tackling these topics would contradict the mainstream narrative of intersectionality. AKA, you aren’t racist are you?? You have to submit to the brown man just not the white man.

It's possible to stick to some mainstream guns like "FGM is wrong" while maintaining respect for the civil rights of other races. As for the other stuff... I feel it's whataboutery. Male circumcision to me is a male problem, and if men want to fix it, they have every lever at their disposal to illegalize it, just like the EU illegalized the declawing of cats. It's a distraction tactic.

In a fair justice system, a conviction cannot be secured unless evidence to prove the crime beyond any reasonable doubt is procured. The testimony of one witness will never enough to accomplish that by itself. I agree fully, that, if such evidence exists, a man should be brought to trial, convicted, and sent to prison. However, weakening our ancient system of justice because it upholds the rights of the accused is absolutely retarded.

Men aid other men in getting away with rape by casting doubt upon his accuser. They will hammer her from all sides and make her ordeal so public and intolerable that it has been compared to being raped a second time. Police aid rapists by leaving rape kits unprocessed on the shelves for years, despite millions in federal dollars to process these fucking kits. MRAs and mgtows aid rapists by promoting the fiction that "false rape allegations" are common, so that when women actually are raped their stories are discounted if they didn't also get beated to death. (Somehow it's very credible to men that a dead woman could have been raped, but they can't believe it if the woman survives.)

Feminists are sooooo stooopid!!! This is why I am not like other girls, I would never be such a nagging old ugly dyke who just goes "blah blah I don't want to be raped and murdered blah blah" all the men I know wouldn't even rape and murder you cause you are FAT and not hot like me. And anyways men getting falsely accused of rape is a much bigger issue. That's why I am a Men's Rights Activist instead, because I know we live in a GYNOCRACY run by KARENS. You catty Karens probably don't even enjoy Warhammer and eating a whole pizza unlike me. Meow meow go screeching at each other all day while me and the boys laugh at our farts, that's what real humor is btw. Anyways I am gonna shut up now cause nobody wants to hear women talk teeheeheehee! XD going to make a sandwich for a MAN!

O ya, I would never be like that!! I ~*love*~ pandering to the boys, pretending to be stupid and weak so they think they have to protect me! It's sooo cute when my boyfriend stands over me like a hawk and get livid if I talk to another man! That's how he shows that he cares! He's so romantic, if we fight, it's only because I got him so worked up! I just need to phrase my wants and needs delicately and not burden him with my feminine problems!

 

[Lurker]

shitting on and denying the rights of approximately 50% of the human population is pretty based

fuck feminism

 

[Stan]

Regarding the femcel thing, incels are femcels are pretty similar. The only difference is that Women tend to seem to want a real relationship whereas Men just are angry they can't have sex. A Woman could usually find someone to be with but it would be useless and they want to actually have someone they want, and as for Incels they just think they are deserving of some supermodel or something. Aside from that, in terms of how aggressive you are about hating the other gender, they are practically the same. There isn't much more to add about it I guess.

who asked you for your opinion on femcels?

I did not say that women should not be allowed to work. In fact, I worded my post pretty carefully to avoid saying that, and even suggested an alternative solution for allowing women to raise a child on their spouse's dime without curtailing their right to have a career. I have no problem with women working part-time whilst raising kids, that being said, depending on the family's economic status, it may not be enough to provide enough income combined with her spouse's income. The situation I object to is when a woman has to work full-time instead of being a mother.

Thanks for the clarification. IMO mothers should be paid UBI by the state since they are servicing the state by having more citizens. France does that and they seem semi-functional.

I'm not going to sit here and idolize the 1950s-60s setup of having the man be sole breadwinner and the woman a full-time caretaker, because that system did have its issues as well, but I will say that it's sad that a setup like that is not even something most people can choose to do anymore. If you watch old American TV shows you'll see families with 2 or 3 children being well fed and cared for, owning their own two-story house, and having a car or two, all on the man's income alone--and these were not even necessarily "rich people". In less than 50 years that has become basically impossible.

That "50-60s" setup is seen through rose-colored glasses. What you saw on TV because was fictional; The Andy Rooney Show and Leave it to Beaver are sitcoms, not documentaries. At that time is was easier for men to support an entire family working a low-skill job in America, because of WWII. However, there is some economic truth that it was easier to support a family on one job in the 50's. Here's why:

In the aftermath of WWII the European economy had been literally bombed to shit, and Asia's economy was nowhere near ready, so America was basically the only nation to come out from WWII with their means of production unscathed. This predictably drove up demand for products, which drives up demand for labor, which makes it possible to earn a family wage assembling cars or whatever.

Men in were awarded these jobs postwar and women were expelled from them (they'd worked very similar jobs during the war, when there weren't many men to fill the positions), and it is a fucking crime against our sex. They literally just took away these well-paid jobs from women to give them to men, to force women back into the domestic life.

 

[m1ddl3m4rch]

who asked you for your opinion on femcels?

The thread topic did.

Just to clear something up quickly--the "feminist movement" that shills for trannies and aims to "include them among women" is the 3rd wave specifically.

The 4th wave, which chronologically started after the 3rd wave but has not technically replaced it (by this I mean--both waves are happening concurrently right now, and the 3rd wave despite being slightly older is still the more prevalent) is, very explicitly, against the entire "trans women are women" idea, and views men's abilities to weasel their way into anything female-exclusive--sports, job positions, the lesbian dating scene, sororities, and even bathrooms and changing rooms--as a horrible thing.

The 3rd wave called men sexist for not voting blue, and now blue is in office and women are getting screwed. So for what the 3rd wave is doing to women, Marge has as a list item to lay at the feet of Patriarchy. The authorities removing women's spaces are the same authorities Feminists have been cajoling men to vote for. Looks like the Matriarchy elected its own oppressors. The 4th wave put the 3rd in power.

Women are again calling men sexist for not supporting the right kind of Feminism. Well 3rd and 4th are both calling themselves Feminism and say they're the true way and the other one is radical, and the both call men sexist until they do what they want. Maybe the church of Feminism can navigate this schism without men.

 

[Stan]

Women are again calling men sexist for not supporting the right kind of Feminism

If you're just here to shit up the thread with anti-feminist talking points, please leave. You're trying to pit the different waves of feminism against each other, but they aren't in opposition with one another. Each wave builds on the achievements of the previous, and trans rights are not the first time feminists found themselves disagreeing about how to move forward (in the 70's, porn was the big divider: some feminists accepted it, and others were willing to side with right-wing aligned politicians to ban it.)

In fact, I'm not even sure defining feminism in "waves" is a particularly useful way to break up the timeline of the ideology, what its goals were etc. I will work on sussing out a timeline for the benefit of the thread though.

 

[m1ddl3m4rch]

If you're just here to shit up the thread with anti-feminist talking points, please leave.

The thread is "Feminism discussion thread". Criticism is discussion.

You're trying to pit the different waves of feminism against each other, but they aren't in opposition with one another.

You had a list item saying separate women's sports and spaces, and that Feminism is the solution. Leaders endorsed by Feminism dismantled the definition of woman, allowing in trannies. Feminism elected your oppressors.

Each wave builds on the achievements of the previous,

Which is why women's sport was dismantled? Because they're building on the previous?

and trans rights are not the first time feminists found themselves disagreeing about how to move forward (in the 70's, porn was the big divider: some feminists accepted it, and others were willing to side with right-wing aligned politicians to ban it.)

In fact, I'm not even sure defining feminism in "waves" is a particularly useful way to break up the timeline of the ideology, what its goals were etc. I will work on sussing out a timeline for the benefit of the thread though.

If Feminists can't figure out what a woman is without standing for men in dresses, there's no helping them at all. They elected their own oppressors, and they'll Ms.-lead people to elect yet more oppressors.

 

[AmberHeardSupporter]

Uhm... HELLO??? BOYs you may winner-sticker my post now??? Do you not see I epically owned those feminazi's for you??? Where are my stickers and coolgirl reward points?? Ugh!

Lmao she’s so annoying. Coming in here to vent to her oppressors just because a woman slightly disagreed with her.

 

[skekChuck]

It's possible to stick to some mainstream guns like "FGM is wrong" while maintaining respect for the civil rights of other races. As for the other stuff... I feel it's whataboutery. Male circumcision to me is a male problem, and if men want to fix it, they have every lever at their disposal to illegalize it, just like the EU illegalized the declawing of cats. It's a distraction tactic.

I think this would be common sense but unfortunately the population is so incredibly distracted and sedated that it does shatter any comfortable thoughts.

I stand that any type of genital mutilation should start with the decision of the mother and should be supported by the father. Ideally. Circumcision is done as a newborn, it’s still mutilation that can be stopped by parents. This is the same for FGM. Across the board it should be illegal. Any nonconsensual body modification should be outright banned. (Includes FGM, MGM, ear piercings, puberty blockers, etc.)
This all starts with family. Not women. Not men. Together.

 

[Otterly]

When I was born, women couldn’t get a mortgage in the UK as a matter of routine without a male signature (yes legally they could, in practice? Nope.) . Women were expected to leave work upon marriage and you could rape your wife with impunity. There was genuine sexism which isn’t a word anyone seems to use these days but that’s what it was. Women of course had been doing things like go to university in small numbers, but for the bulk of working class women that simply wasn’t an option. Even as child I was laughed at when I said I wanted to study.
By the time I was an adult, that had changed hugely. there were avenues open to you as a girl, people were far less sexist. Things generally were fine. Women were generally treated as humans. The criminalisation of marital rape (2004!) was for me the point where it was generally all fine. Not perfect, but fine.
I’ve also lived in societies which are less sexist. Most of the Scandinavian ones have had less sexist societies and more equal societies for a very long time. Women minded and managed the land while the men went raiding and were respected as good stewards. Men tend to be more involved with parenting, for example as well. Nowadays in the uk no one bats an eyelid if a father is pushing the pram but that wasn’t the case forty years ago, but it was in Scandinavia.
Feminism, like any movement that aimed at the start to bring people together, has been subverted almost from the beginning. If men and women managed to work together effectively, we’d be a far more cohesive and powerful force. Just like if the working class stopped splitting on gender/generation/political type lines.

This is the healthier and more effective solution of men and women working together for the betterment and advancement of humanity.

This would be my hope for what feminism ‘should’ be. Recognising that women are human, not chattel, with strengths and abilities that are important, and different from those of men.
What it’s become is something that doesn’t further that goal at all and I think that is down to the same subversion as hits all social movements that could threaten power structures. Fourth wave feminism is actively malign, damaging women and men alike.

 

[Radion_Godiva]

Uhm... HELLO??? BOYs you may winner-sticker my post now??? Do you not see I epically owned those feminazi's for you??? Where are my stickers and coolgirl reward points?? Ugh!

Sticker abuse is a terrible crime, I am so sorry for your loss.

 

[Stan]

The thread is "Feminism discussion thread". Criticism is discussion.

Your criticism is in bad faith. You aren't here to improve feminism, you would like to see the movement disbanded.

I stand that any type of genital mutilation should start with the decision of the mother and should be supported by the father. Ideally. Circumcision is done as a newborn, it’s still mutilation that can be stopped by parents. This is the same for FGM. Across the board it should be illegal. Any nonconsensual body modification should be outright banned. (Includes FGM, MGM, ear piercings, puberty blockers, etc.)
This all starts with family. Not women. Not men. Together.

I don't think piercing a baby's ears is anywhere near FGM in terms of trauma. I'm skeptical that male circumsicion is really all that bad; if it were, I think it's the men's job to do something about it. It's their penises and their tradition, why do feminists need to intercede?

women were expected to leave work upon marriage and you could rape your wife with impunity. There was genuine sexism which isn’t a word anyone seems to use these days but that’s what it was.

I've been using the word "sexism" because "misogyny" is so widely discounted and mocked by men.

Women minded and managed the land while the men went raiding and were respected as good stewards. Men tend to be more involved with parenting, for example as well. Nowadays in the UK no one bats an eyelid if a father is pushing the pram but that wasn’t the case forty years ago, but it was in Scandinavia.

We've come a long way, but I still think women face significant discrimination on the basis of sex. It disturbs me to know there are a subsegment of men (hopefully, just a really loud minority) that would like to strip women of the right to vote. There are still men who would like to put us right back where we were 50 years ago, and I am not confident that the rest of the men will stand with us in opposition.

 

[Otterly]

That "50-60s" setup is seen through rose-colored glasses.

No it’s not. It was a pretty good time. A lot of positive hope, growth, community, cohesion.

At that time is was easier for men to support an entire family working a low-skill job in America, because of WWII.

It was perfectly possible to support a family on one wage in the uk right through to the early 90s. You wouldn’t be rich, or having fancy holidays, and you’d be in hand me downs but everyone was back then anyway. I grew up in the 70s/80s with a mother at home and it was VASTLY better socially. There were still communities. Nobody around us was rich, but we managed. We had a car, we had a house. We had a week at the seaside in the summer and we ate fresh food.
NONE of that is possible now. Not on one wage. You need both parents working to even get close to it. Many women want to stay home and can’t. The loss of that choice has been a disaster for society. Kids shoved in daycare too young gives attachment issues. families stressed, tired, latchkey kids.
A feminism that truly cared about women’s skills and abilities would allow women (or men, just one parent) to work OR to stay home and be a mother. Raising the next generation to be sound and healthy is a very important role. Creating communities is important. Being around and able to care for the elderly is important. Society seems all these things as women’s work and thus unimportant but they’re the background glue which holds it all together and let’s the men and high achieving women go out and do the rest of it.
What we have with fourth wave cheapens us. The over sexualised nature of it cheapens us and damages men. It damages our kids and it damages society. It alienates men from women.
You’re a champagne socialist, who pontificates about the working class like they’re some kind of pet project, while gallivanting around with the parasitic class.
The fact that one working parent can’t support a family is one of the most significant drags on society we have

 

[m1ddl3m4rch]

Your criticism is in bad faith. You aren't here to improve feminism, you would like to see the movement disbanded.

The thread is for discussion. Wanting to abolish something is discussing it in good faith. I'm still on topic, discussing Feminism.

 

[Otterly]

Can feminism be improvised from its current state though? It’s like so many of the current year social things - it’s like we’ve just headed straight off the cliff edge to the extremes.
Example is stuff like gay rights. You shouldnt be bashed or fired for being gay alone. I think the majority of people are OK with people who are gay as long as otherwise they’re obeying the rules of society. But we’ve gone so far with loosening the rules that now ‘gay’ isn’t associated with two same sex people quietly being married and monogamous, it’s associated with pride, drag queen story hour, utter degeneracy and troons.
But how do you get BACK from that to normality? I think the same issue dogs feminism. The voices saying ‘look just treat each other like humans and work together’ don’t get a look in. Pandora’s box can’t be closed. Social movements when they go off the cliff like that don’t pit themselves back to normality, there’s usually An Event that destabilises society to the point people crave conservatism again.

 

[Stan]

NONE of that is possible now. Not on one wage. You need both parents working to even get close to it. Many women want to stay home and can’t. The loss of that choice has been a disaster for society. Kids shoved in daycare too young gives attachment issues. families stressed, tired, latchkey kids.

I'm skeptical that day care is that traumatic for kids. However, I agree that it would be nice if women had a choice between working, working part-time, or staying at home. The cost of daycare usually takes a huge chunk out of what a woman can earn, anyway. This however is a problem with capitalism, and in particular a problem wage stagnation. I'm happy to talk about that; I consider myself a Christian Socialist, and I think that if profit was redistributed amongst the workers instead of just all going to the guy at the top, we would have a better society to show for it. But I'd prefer not to blame women for needing to work or getting all envious and hateful towards women who choose not to work.

Motherhood is real labor and the government should pay UBI for it. Oddly enough you will never see the antifeminists endorse this idea, though.

Can feminism be improvised from its current state though? It’s like so many of the current year social things - it’s like we’ve just headed straight off the cliff edge to the extremes.

In a word: yes. What are you getting at? That you can't be feminist cause occasionally a feminist says something cringe?
If women don't fight to maintain what rights and freedoms we've got, the men will quickly reverse those rights. You can see men in this thread salivating over that possibility, and the oppression is within your living memory. Do you really want to go back?

 

[skekChuck]

I don't think piercing a baby's ears is anywhere near FGM in terms of trauma. I'm skeptical that male circumsicion is really all that bad; if it were, I think it's the men's job to do something about it. It's their penises and their tradition, why do feminists need to intercede?

If you had a son, you shouldn’t allow the doctors to circumcise him. He is not capable of consenting to a permanent change that does permanent damage. I hate trying to rate this stuff as less worse to more worse because it’s equally terrible to do anything to a kid who can’t consent.

I’m baffled that we really want to diminish issues just because we “I feel it’s not that bad.” Like holy fuck. Taking a stand on all nonconsensual body changes should be child’s rights issue and that’s what equality should be.

 

[Dyn]

If you had a son, you shouldn’t allow the doctors to circumcise him.

You should have the doctor cut his whole dick off so he doesn't grow up to be a sexual predator like 99% of men.

 

[Group Project Carrier]

I’m baffled that we really want to diminish issues just because we “I feel it’s not that bad.” Like holy fuck. Taking a stand on all nonconsensual body changes should be child’s rights issue and that’s what equality should be.

I didn't get the sense that she was trying to diminish or trivialize the topic of male circumcision. She seemed moreso to be saying, "this is bad, but it shouldn't be our focus".

You are absolutely correct to call it a children's rights issue. But feminism is a women's rights movement specifically. Male circumcision affects--male children. It's not that feminists should ignore or even be in favor of it, but it's just not really related to the core tenets of the movement, like how the LGB movement isn't concerned with racism and the BLM movement isn't concerned with homophobia.

You as an individual can be part of as many movements as you want, and put as much importance as you want in any particular issue. It's within your rights to do that. But that doesn't change the meaning or objective of the movements themselves.