Game of Thrones Thread

I'd be fine with Dany killing Jon then going back to Mereen saying fuck it didn't want it anyway, the red haired wilding dude marrying Sansa so they both fuck off to the north and murderous Arya becoming Cersei 2.0 and staying in Kings Landing. Just for the salt. If Martin has any balls he'd write an ending like that and have it published after he dies.
 
Lol at GRRM being some subtle, ne plus ultra clever writer when he literally lays out the entire plot of the series in the first two books through Ned's memories of Lyanna and Dany's multiple visions.
 
I don't understand this. Destabilizing the situation in King's Landing and causing the guy that cleans up Cersei's constant fuck-ups helps the restoration as far as I can see.
Yes? It does benefit the cause of aegon VI. Not the cause of peace and stability.

My post was emphasizing that nearly every party is interested in disorder and destabilizing the country, not peace. Kevan at the end of the fifth book is desperately trying to stabilize things. You can argue Tommen is illegitimate, or that the northmen and river landers have reason to continue the war(as with Stannis of course) but Kevan isn’t interested in further chaos and destruction.

Varys is. Varys wants a targaryen on the throne and will ensure thousands die and more of the country burns to get it.

As with everyone else. Which is why-if the series ever was finished I expect large sections of the country to be laid to waste. In between the others invading, dany invading, Tyrion enacting holy hell on the people that wronged him, Euron doing blood sacrifices, and the continuation of the wars for iron throne, Jon Connington bringing greyscale, famine, etc…-the country is going to be a burned ruin.

Which is the point Martin is making-all of these
people are acting out of their own internal pathos-their lust, greed, desire for vengeance, justice and survival. In doing so, they destroy the country.

I mean-Martin isn’t subtle, Daenerys has a vision in the house of the undying of four dwarf like creatures raping and biting a young woman-clearly this represents the kings of westeros destroying Westeros.

We are supposed to see this as a tragedy and a condemnation of the men represented yet at the same time, root for the starks and Stannis.

It’s just thematically inconsistent. Martin wants his anti war theme and the “wolf kids get the justice they deserve” at the same time.
 
Yes? It does benefit the cause of aegon VI. Not the cause of peace and stability.

My post was emphasizing that nearly every party is interested in disorder and destabilizing the country, not peace. Kevan at the end of the fifth book is desperately trying to stabilize things. You can argue Tommen is illegitimate, or that the northmen and river landers have reason to continue the war(as with Stannis of course) but Kevan isn’t interested in further chaos and destruction.

Varys is. Varys wants a targaryen on the throne and will ensure thousands die and more of the country burns to get it.

As with everyone else. Which is why-if the series ever was finished I expect large sections of the country to be laid to waste. In between the others invading, dany invading, Tyrion enacting holy hell on the people that wronged him, Euron doing blood sacrifices, and the continuation of the wars for iron throne, Jon Connington bringing greyscale, famine, etc…-the country is going to be a burned ruin.

Which is the point Martin is making-all of these
people are acting out of their own internal pathos-their lust, greed, desire for vengeance, justice and survival. In doing so, they destroy the country.

I mean-Martin isn’t subtle, Daenerys has a vision in the house of the undying of four dwarf like creatures raping and biting a young woman-clearly this represents the kings of westeros destroying Westeros.

We are supposed to see this as a tragedy and a condemnation of the men represented yet at the same time, root for the starks and Stannis.

It’s just thematically inconsistent. Martin wants his anti war theme and the “wolf kids get the justice they deserve” at the same time.
Then I misread your comment. I thought you stated that Varys killing Kevan somehow impedes Dany's inevitable war against the Lannisters when it in fact helps them a lot.

As for your overall point of Martin having confused goals with both showing that the bickering between self-declared kings ruining Westeros and the reader being supposed to side with the Starks and Stannis... I do sorta agree. I don't think it's that much of an issue that these two things run at odds though.

You can root for one side as a reader but still realize that the conflict these characters are stuck in (presently) leads everyone down a path towards destruction. Showing off all sides as craptastic shitheads in the wrong would be rather nihilistic and not make for much of an engaging plot, don't you think?
You can side with a character even if you know their (current) struggle is vain in light of a larger threat. Given that the story isn't over, we haven't yet seen how this transforms once these people realize that there is a larger threat looming.

That is to say:
As long as the "Long Night" is just a fairytale to scare little children to most of the people in central and south Westeros, bickering over who sits the rusty chair makes sense. If they keep that up when the Army of the Dead, as prophecised by their own version of the Revelation, knocks on their door, that's where problems start.

Jon has had his kerfuffle with the undead and knows that he must act. That's what he's trying to achieve in the latter part of his story so far, but no one (except maybe Stannis) takes him seriously.
The people in the south just scoff at Malister, cause they don't take his message seriously, that the dead have risen. They don't take it seriously yet. If the plot continues and people are forced to stop their bickering amongst themselves to address the much more pressing threat of impeding doom, that's absolutely okay. Being sympathetic to the Starks as they suffer the political bullshit by honorless, backstabbing people is totally a-okay, if by the end, there is some form of unified push against the White Walkers.

This is, btw, one of my major criticisms of GoT S8. Cersei goes "It's most likely bullshit, but if it isn't, let the North deal with it, lol" and it turns out she was actually right.
If the rest of that season had been a losing battle to retreat South as the army of the dead sweeps over Westeros with one final unified battle at the end, that would have made sense, but the whole plot of the entire story is undermined when the Hunchback of Notre Stark cheapshots the literal prince of darkness and shanks him like a bitch.
A bloated, wine-sipping Dunning-Kruger dipshit ends up the larger threat to Westeros' future. And then there's Dany "Crazed by the Bell" Targaryen going apeshit. There is a bit of setup, but it still is poorly executed.
Yeah, the end of the show was a clusterfuck of terrible decisions and a lot of them go exactly against what GRRM has been doing in the books.

Most notably, the books are centred around the idea that the "Game of Thrones" is pointless in face of the fight for mere, naked survival against the White Walkers, but the show contradicts this by S8E3 and reinforces that the only thing that ever mattered was, in fact, not what was set up in the books but rather the "Game of Thrones". (Kinda eerie, now that I think about it).
That's why I simply refuse to buy into the narrative that the end of GoT was entirely based on what was outlined for the books. Cersei being the Endboss alone invalidates that to me on such a fundamental level. I reject the ending of the show as anything like what would be in the books wholesale until GRRM himself finishes them and that shit is actually in there.
 
George fucked up making the Others the real threat anyway. Cersei is the end boss from the way the story is told to us. This is supposed to change big time in Winds of Winter but since it still isn't even close to done yet almost a decade after Dance with Dragons was published, that means nothing. George's statements mean nothing until he finally gets done shitting out the next book.

So far the Others have done jack shit except wipe out a couple hundred Night's Watch at the fist of the first men, big fucking deal. Then they disappeared again like they have every time after making an appearance. There has been nothing in five books to suggest the Others would be a problem for a large, properly equipped human army that knows how to fight them. Oh and the way to fight them is ridiculously simple, fire and dragonglass and Valyrian steel. Okay so there's not a lot of the former two, but we've already seen King's Landing can pump out a bajillion gallons of wildfire when it wants to, and will only be able to make even more since magic, especially fire magic, is growing stronger and stronger with the dragons back.

And those dragons are gonna be huge by the time they finally get to Westeros, they're already big enough to ride. George has spent all his words telling us not showing us the Others are so dangerous and showing us not telling us that the humans are quite dangerous. So it's natural to take the human, Cersei, more seriously than the not-human Others.

Oh and the Others still have yet to breach the Wall, and George says in Winds of Winter we will see the Others' homeland, implying that they STILL won't have busted into Westeros until A Dream of Summer or the very end of Winds.

What have you seen of the Others in the five books so far that makes them look like a real threat? Melisandre and Jon Snow saying over and over and over and over that they are doesn't count.

Cersei is the big bad by default because the quote unquote real big bads haven't done anything big bad or come within a thousand leagues of it in five fucking books.
 
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I dunno, Cersei is shown as way to much of a fuck up. I wouldn't consider her the "big bad", but at the same time everyone's goal outside of Jon are on the Iron Throne so it gives it the perception of having far more importance so I see what you mean.
 
The Starks actually begin two wars. The first is when they are conspiring against Aerys to dethrone him or split the North from the Iron Throne which is heavily hinted at in ADWD. This drives Aerys further into paranoia. The idiot Stark daughter Lyanna allows herself to be kidnapped essentially. This alienates Dorne because Prince Rhaegar has basically abandoned Elia Martell to take a new wife and have new heirs. And it enrages the entire North and the Baratheons because they think Lyanna has been kidnapped and raped against her will.
The Starks didn't start any war. They never conspired against Aerys to dethrone him and there is nothing hinted at this in any book, as far as I know. Aerys thought this was going to happen, but that doesn't mean it's true. The only thing that is hinted (in book 4, through Jaime's memories) is that Rhaegar waited too long to take charge of the situation and remove his father. If you read "Word of Ice and Fire", you find out his possible conspirators are all members of southern Houses, including two Dornishmen. The infamous Tournament could have been him testing the waters to see who was loyal to him. But it was Rhaegar all along.

Also, the Rebellion had little to do with the alleged kidnapping of Lyana Stark. No one was calling for armies because Lyanna was missing. Between Lyanna's disappearance and Rickard Stark going to Westeros, there were one of two months because that's the shortest time you need to get from Winterfell to King's Landing. The Rebellion only happened after Aerys killed both Starks, and neither Ned or Robert called for any banners, Jon Arryn did after Aerys threatened them too. Robert was the figure of the Rebellion, but it was Arryn behind both his pupils leading them.

So the Starks send people to King's Landing to threaten Aerys in person, when Aerys was correct that Rhaegar did not kidnap Lyanna. And they are hanged and burned for threatening the King and the Prince and calling them liars.
The Starks didn't send anyone. Brandon Stark was on his way to his wedding with Cat in the Riverlands when he found out and then he went straight to the Red Keep to demand the Heir Prince to "come out and die" for doing something he had done himself many times: having affairs with other noble ladies. He was already betrothed to Cat and still sleeping around. Brandon Stark is not the guardian of Rhaegar's pants just like Rickard Stark wasn't the guardian of his. If he had any problem with it, going to the unstable King's home to demand for his son to murder him was not the way to go.

See, Aerys acted rightfully when he ordered Brandon being arrested. You can't threaten a Royal. The way to go was a Trial by Combat, something Brandon had the right to. And as Rhaegar can't fight for being the Prince, he had the best sword of the Seven Kingdoms (Dayne) to fight for him. Brandon was doomed since he set foot on King's Landing.

Then the Starks decide to rally basically the entirety of Westeros to fight in a massive war rather than simply track down Rhaegar or Lyanna and find out the truth. This war causes a permanent instability and uncertainty of leadership and governance that leads to even more wars that the Starks are a major part of. Including causing the Greyjoys to rebel because they see an opening for themselves.
The stability was already threatened because of Aerys, not Rhaegar. Again, the kidnapping of Lyanna was not what started the war: it was the murder of Rickard Stark and his heir, Brandon. And while the Starks had all the right to raise arms against them, it was Jon Arryn who did it to protect both Robert and Ned, who Aerys also wanted to kill.

They always give some lame line like "Starks are about honor". Yet Ned lied to Jon all his life and sent the rightful heir to The Wall
I agree that many decisions taken by Ned and Robb were stupid, and indeed, the myth of the Starks being all about honor is just that, a myth. The "Honor" motto belongs to the Arrys, where Ned grew up, and that's a personal trait of Ned after being raised by Arryn, not representative of every Stark.

But Ned did nothing wrong when he hid Jon, who wasn't the "rightful heir". Jon is as much the rightful heir as Louis Alphonse de Bourbon is the rightful king of France. It's only true if you follow a timeline that has been broken. Jon is a pretender to the Throne (perhaps the one with more claims to it as he's a child of the heir Prince), but not the rightful heir.

Ned saw what happened to Rhaegar's children and how neither the Lannisters (but Jaime) or Robert gave a shit. Robert was in fact a bit pleased that they died. That's why Ned left King's Landing. He was disgusted by Robert's indifference to the murder of innocent children. And then he discovers Lyanna had a child with Rhaegar. He knew well what Robert was going to do with that kid. He also knew well that there was another chance for war if the people still loyal to the Targaryens ever found out Rhaegar had a child.

He didn't send Jon to the Wall either. Jon decided to go there. Ned never saw Jon as Rhaegar's son because Jon had no claim for the throne at the moment and raised him as a noble bastard, knowing well he was never going to be more than that. IICR, Ned had plans for Jon to marry a minor house and establish new households, but it was Jon's decision to join the Watch, not Ned.
 
George fucked up making the Others the real threat anyway.
Hard disagree on that one. It just makes no sense whatsoever thematically, narratively or even logically.

Imagine Lucifer walked the earth and had an ever growing host of millions of demons at his back, slowly burning every nation to ashes unopposed and people in the US would be still tangled up with shittalking Donald Trump for the Russian piss tapes.

The army of the undead is an existential crisis to every living thing in Westeros (explained in detail below), while Cersei is merely one random incompetent bimbo on a throne. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter if she sits the throne or gets the old Marie Antoinette make-over. In the end, someone else will sit the Rusty Chair sooner or later. Even if she's replaced by a benevolent, wise, charismatic and competent ruler (either by murder or old age), said ruler might die and generations later be replaced by another Joffrey. Or by another Baelor the Blessed. Which in turn might be replaced by another tyrant or saint. The point is: Life goes on, the wheels keep on turning.

But when the Night King wins, there is going to be no living person sitting that throne ever again. There will never be a living thing ever again.

That's why Cersei's little squabble doesn't matter and why S8 was so fucking misguided. In face of an existential, imminent, unavoidable threat, it simply doesn't matter which House or person rules over Westeros. But Dumb and Dumber decided to just cut off that plotthread by making it all about Cersei vs. Dany.

Cersei winning logically means, at worst, a shitty ruler over a few people for a few years. The Night King winning canonically means, at best, the end of all living things forever.

See how irrelevant that makes the clash for the Rusty Chair?

I also don't see how this argument is supposed to make any sense:
So far the Others have done jack shit except wipe out a couple hundred Night's Watch at the fist of the first men, big fucking deal. Then they disappeared again like they have every time after making an appearance. There has been nothing in five books to suggest the Others would be a problem for a large, properly equipped human army that knows how to fight them.
You make it sound like that attack against the Night's Watch on the Fist of the First Men was nothing remarkable.

The Night's Watch had a fortified position on a steep rock formation, that made attacks from all but one side unfeasible. They had a lot of manpower (literally enough to hold off Mance Rayder's entire host of several thousand wildling warriors) and while they might not have known about Dragon Glass, they still had at least some idea of what they were doing. And they got almost completely wiped out.

Which brings me to my next point:

What have you seen of the Others in the five books so far that makes them look like a real threat?
Every living thing they kill becomes a soldier in their army. In the last season of GoT, they even raise the dead, that have been skeletons for hundreds of years, which I call bullshit, but even without that, if they spill over the wall and start razing the much more densely populated areas of Westeros (And by that I mean everything south of the Wall including the lands of Winterfell), that army will grow exponentially. And while this host might be slow, it never has to stop or slow down to sleep or eat. Frankly, compared to the speed of a regular medieval army (that sometimes might only manage to travel as little as 5 miles a day during summer), they might actually be rather speedy.

And then there's the numbers:
Keep in mind, for every knight, and even common footsoldiers, there are at least a hundred regular villagers, citizens and so on.
The army of the undead is going to vastly outnumber any army thrown in their way. And every person killed reinforces their ranks. That is not limited to the ones being killed by the army, it also extends to those freezing or starving to death.

Something to keep in mind here: The Night King brings with him an unnaturally cold and harsh winter.
Waging war in winter is hard even in modern times, it is outright suicidal in a medieval fantasy setting. Even just traveling is immensely difficult and dangerous und these conditions.

I just checked the ASOIAF wiki for a quick and dirty back of the envelope research to put this into perspective:

Location....................................................................................................................Largest size of their Army............................................................................Population
The North45,0004,000,000
Iron Islands20,0001,500,000
The Vale45,0004,000,000
Riverlands45,0004,000,000
Westerlands50,0005,500,000
Crownlands10,000-15,0001,500,000
The Reach80,000-100,00012,000,000
The Stormlands30,0002,500,000
Dorne45,0003,000,000
Sum:370,000-395,00038,000,000

So, assuming we ignore any starting army the Night King might have when crossing the wall and assuming that 75% of everyone living in the North manages to escape to the south with the remaining 25% being turned into zombies in the Night King's army and furthermore assuming that the rest of Westeros manages to somehow mobilize every soldier and somehow send them to Moat Cailin very quickly... the newly formed army of the dead, only consisting of those from the North that got killed, would still outnumber the entire combined armies of all of Westeros on a ratio of more than 2:1. Trying to kill them all with what few Valyrian weapons and Dragon Glass you might have and using fire as much as you can, you'd still not manage to put a dent in the numbers of that army . . . and every soldier you lose replaces one for the Night King.

And this is already a game stacked in favor of Westeros to a ridiculous degree, since I assume that entire armies (unaffected by the War of Five Kings, I might add) can be levied and teleported to Moat Cailin to fight a deliberately lowballed Night King army, cause somehow a shitton of people managed to teleport out of the North without issue at the same time. Funny thing about that: Consider that the Night King causes a massive winter all down to at least King's Landing, when most harvests have been ruined or used up by the war. The Night King could just move south quickly by ignoring everything in the North until he reaches Moat Cailin or a similar convenient place to cut off anyone trying to escape, then wait till his wights and winter have killed anyone still remaining in the North and slowly pull his forces together to enter the Riverlands. At the same time, all the displaced people in the south would strain what little supply of food there is and die in the coldness of winter or by hunger.

Again to reiterate. That is assuming that people in the North were able to flee and wouldn't die in the hundreds of thousands trying to make it to the south during an unnatural winter in the first place. Also, this is only about people, now add undead wolves, dogs, bears, crows, deers and so on to the mix. Also giant ice spiders potentially.

It's much more likely that by the time the Night King is done in the North, he's going to have an army counting millions while winter slowly strangles anyone left between the Riverlands and King's Landing.

tl;dr:
Cersei winning means a bitch sitting on the throne for some time. Night King winning means no one will ever sit anywhere ever again.
The army of the undead would grow exponentially, eventually outnumbering any regular army by maybe a factor of 100:1.

So yeah, the Night King is the biggest threat. That a story mainly focused on the Squabbles of people in King's Landing and its surroundings didn't yet focus this threat when it's clearly meant to stay ambiguous should be a surprise to precisely no one.

In face of this wall of text featuring me having a nerd spazz-out: puzzle pieces inbound, I guess.
 
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Yeah I already know all the shit people SAY about the Others that makes them the ancient eldritch evil ultimate alien threat.

When the Others actually DO something living up to their reputation, I'll care. They haven't done shit in five long ass books. That's bad writing. I have no doubt they'll be OP af eventually but so far they haven't been. Five books of them roflstomping undisciplined wildlings and a horribly outnumbered and unprepared force of Night's Watch doesn't cut it. It's not good writing.

Give me someone like Randyll Tarly with 5,000 disciplined men and a bunch of scorpions and catapults in a strong position firing a ton of wildfire and I'll pick him over what the Others have shown so far. Toss in dragons and would even a single human die? What I'm saying is the Others should have been shown as more powerful than they have been shown, telling and not showing is bad writing and telling is 95% of what George has done with them. He hasn't shown anything. Everything, including ambiguity, has an expiration date, and five long ass novels is well past that date.

What he should have done is have Jon send the fleet to Hardhome fully prepared to fight the Others as can be, set everything you can reach on fire, maybe even he gets his hands on a stash of wildfire somehow and sends it with the fleet, and the Others completely decimate it like nothing. Instead of Cotter Pyke bitching about storms and stupid wildlings being stupid in the reports sent to Castle Black, all Jon gets is a couple ravens with hastily written messages saying "we're fucked, all the regular fire and wildfire stopped the actual Others for about 2 seconds, they froze the bay and we burned a shitload of wights and actually stopped them, but when the Others themselves started marching over the ice game over man game over."
 
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@RomanesEuntDomus 's post is correct. Thing is, the show did a poor job explaining the real threat that the Others are. The book is a different story.

The first scene of the whole saga is about the Others. We see it as readers, even though the main characters don't do it until several chapters later. In fact, the Others are a good test of character. All the main players don't really care about it, they only want to win the war. Sure, you can say some don't know about it, but that's because the people in charge ignored it at first. Remember the Watch sent letters to all the Kings, their way to say "we don't care who's the King, we need help" and only one of them answered and realised that, if he didn't deal with this, there was not going to be a throne for him to sit on.

That's why Stannis' arrival to the North is so important (and why he's such a beloved character). He's the "King who Cared". Book 3 is very important because, on one side, you see how desperate is the fight of the Watch against the Others and how they are basically surviving out of miracles. And then, you see Westeros still destroying each other and descending into chaos, which we know it's gonna affect any chance of surviving the winter and the Others. The contrast is in purpose for the reader to contrast both events.

Again, the show did with this in the worse possible way, but the books are doing everything right. Jon is right allowing the wildings to cross the Wall, he knows they aren't the real enemy and that he needs them. Even them dying all on his side of the Wall is better than letting them die outside and become an enemy army.
 
If the HBO show had ten seasons they could have had seasons eight and nine be entirely about the Others. Season eight would be the arrival of winter, destruction of the Wall, beginning of the Others invading Westeros. Season nine could be the full invasion of Westeros and possibly the Others freezing the ocean to cross into Essos or other islands. Then the Others are dealt with at the end of season nine or beginning of season ten, and you conclude the remaining stories then like who sits on the throne and rules and whatnot.

We know HBO was willing to extend the show to ten seasons, and possibly to twelve or thirteen which GRRM himself said would be necessary to complete the story. We also know that D&D pushed HBO to end the show at season seven as well. So what was potentially a dozen seasons of content was truncated and trimmed into eight. We also know that GRRM showed no enthusiasm for HBO nor his publisher to finish the story which likely influenced the decision to wrap things up quickly to get an actual conclusion. GRRM is not the picture of health.

But I fear that the books will do the same as the HBO show. Try to fit ten books of content into seven books. Because the story as it stands right now does not really have the room for a Long Night and some crazy epic Age of Heroes. An entire age or generation crammed into two or maybe just one book? Does not seem possible unless the Others have their time considerably shortened so that GRRM can move back into writing about competing over the Seven Kingdoms. The Long Night was a decade or more long battle for all of humanity and the worst winter in history. The sun was gone for a "lifetime" according to legends. GRRM meanwhile spends pages describing sex scenes and tables of food and drinks. This would be fine if the books had no page limit but GRRM thinks that he only has two more books left. Basically setting a hard limit on the amount of content that we will see.

The reality is that most of the chapters of the story deal with the Iron Throne. Even Jon's story is moving into that territory and away from the Others. And if we only have two books left no matter what, then every chapter about Littlefinger scheming, Dany ruling in the East (only to die later), Tyrion and Jorah traveling, the Dorne plots, and so on are leaving less and less room for Others. If GRRM said that he would write as many books as it took to conclude the story then no one would mind the meandering chapters and juvenile sex scenes and food platters. But he has two books left. Two books of food platters and the Iron Throne? Because it cannot possibly be two books nor even one book about the Others. It looks like it will end just like HBO did. With GRRM rushing the Others plot as quickly as possible because in two books there is not enough time to make them a real threat.
 
The problem with The Others is that they are so powerful, nothing but a Deus ex machina will save the world from them. Which in turn makes them not intimidating. They might kill some important characters but either they die by some bullshit reason or they kill everyone in a shitty "defying expectations" ending. Cersei being a human character has a lot more thing she can do (not to mention being realistic) so it gets the audience invested.
It's the same reason why The Joker is more frightening than Thanos.
 
I guess the Others will be dealt with with the dragons. Not precisely a "Deus ex machina", but rather a payoff. There is a reason why the dragons were born after being extinct for so long. Likely, because whatever magic is making the Others to move again, has also awakened the dragons.

Martin has said he's very obvious about his plots. He's also admitted he does the three-steps scenario: 1. present a situation, 2. remind the reader of it, 3. do it. Tyrion has been described about knowing a lot about dragons (more than Dany, that's for sure). And he's on his way to (likely) meet Dany. Hence, he might be the one who figure out dragons will beat the Others.
 
I guess the Others will be dealt with with the dragons. Not precisely a "Deus ex machina", but rather a payoff. There is a reason why the dragons were born after being extinct for so long. Likely, because whatever magic is making the Others to move again, has also awakened the dragons.

Martin has said he's very obvious about his plots. He's also admitted he does the three-steps scenario: 1. present a situation, 2. remind the reader of it, 3. do it. Tyrion has been described about knowing a lot about dragons (more than Dany, that's for sure). And he's on his way to (likely) meet Dany. Hence, he might be the one who figure out dragons will beat the Others.
I thought of that, that but there are only 3 dragons and the Others had shown to be numerous enough to get the Wildlings getting the fuck out and intelligent enough not to run directly into fire, so they will counterattack. Either Dany quite literally starts birthing a dragon army or the dragons main play is being a diversion while one of the heroes sneak up to their leader, kill it and that kills the whole army like in the show.
 
Dany is not going to keep all three dragons. That’s a given. Euron or Victarion are going to get one, and then someone is getting Rhaegal.

Part of the problem with the Others is Martin has advertised his writing as “no dark lords”-an unambiguously evil inhuman threat is not what ASOIAF is (supposedly) about.

Martin either has to one-make the Others an army of truly evil ice fae that really do just want to kill everyone and blanket the world in eternal cold, or make them somehow approachable, perhaps with an Azor Ahai esque sacrifice.

Neither solution works-if they can be reasoned with, or at least appeased either through straight diplomacy or some sort of sacrifice then why build them up as a threat? If they are just a bunch of evil ice monsters with an army of zombies-well that’s rather boring.

There’s also the issue of how far they advance-if they reach all the way to the trident-then the north is pretty much a dead zone, but then Winterfell makes sense (get it Winter fell) but then that does mean they end up being a northern problem-and like in the show that just means cersei was right not to care.

If they make it further than the Trident then they become unstoppable what with all the corpses and undead animals they can raise. And it becomes truly a deus ex machina to defeat them.

So there are two real problems with the Others-how much to humanize them or not, and how big of a threat should they end up being.

Neither are particularly good options, and undermine the narrative in various other ways.

Either they are inhuman monsters that must be destroyed and are defeated in the north, meaning they are just a threat to the north in the end, they are inhuman monsters that are defeated in the dead center of Westeros(maybe the Isle of Faces comes in?)-meaning some sort of deus ex machina becomes absolutely necessary for them to not simply steamroll the continent; they have motivations that can be appeased if not understood and are defeated in the north(making them even less significant) or they have motivations that can be appeased and are so at the isle of faces/trident or whatever. Which is quite anti climactic.

In my view-none of these four permutations are satisfying, either to the readers or Martin himself, and that is part of the reason the book series is pretty much been abandoned.

The problem with The Others is that they are so powerful, nothing but a Deus ex machina will save the world from them. Which in turn makes them not intimidating. They might kill some important characters but either they die by some bullshit reason or they kill everyone in a shitty "defying expectations" ending. Cersei being a human character has a lot more thing she can do (not to mention being realistic) so it gets the audience invested.
It's the same reason why The Joker is more frightening than Thanos.
The problem with cersei in the show is she literally should not have lasted as long as she did. The plot made Tyrion, Dany, really all the heroes complete retards for her not to lose and had Qyburn pull new inventions out of his ass just to keep her in the game. This meant that she lasted until the penultimate episode but by then she had fully eclipsed any sense of realism, in not being overthrown.

Again, cutting out Aegon caused a massive problem for the writers.
 
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When the Others actually DO something living up to their reputation, I'll care. They haven't done shit in five long ass books. That's bad writing. I have no doubt they'll be OP af eventually but so far they haven't been. Five books of them roflstomping undisciplined wildlings and a horribly outnumbered and unprepared force of Night's Watch doesn't cut it. It's not good writing.
The Other are, quite literally, supposed to be an ominous threat looming in the background. As such, they are by definition not going to be in the foreground. The books are about human characters, their conflicts and their interactions. The Other are made clear to be a massive threat even by what little we do know about them and they are supposed to make a full appearance only much later in the story and then dwarf whatever squabbles there might be amongst the human characters.

Your whole post is like chastising Lovecraft for being vague about Cthulhu, it's a fundamental misunderstanding of what the Other are and how they are supposed to work as a plot device.

If you're saying you need to be spoonfed the connection between "Vast army of zombies lead by a hellspawn that can raise dead to reinforce said army" and "that is a bad thing", sorry, that's on you, not on the author.

If you like the way GRRM does it or not is up to you, but that is not the least bit objective, so saying it's "bad writing" is off the mark.
Give me someone like Randyll Tarly with 5,000 disciplined men and a bunch of scorpions and catapults in a strong position firing a ton of wildfire and I'll pick him over what the Others have shown so far.
If you genuinely think that, it only proves that you don't understand the threat of the Other on a very basic and fundamental level. I don't mean this as an insult.

Just for shits n giggles: You are aware that the Other have no reason whatsoever to enter catapult range or even fight someone holed up in a castle? Their army can just put a couple tens of thousands of troops to stand there for however long it takes, a week or a century, and simply wait for Tarly and his amazing bunch of merry men to be turned into popsicles. The main host of their army would still outnumber all combined armies of Westeros 100:1. And it would grow even larger by the day. All the wildfire that has ever existed would not be enough to defeat that giant army and all said army has to do is encircle cities and castles and then wait for everyone to starve or freeze to death.

What I'm saying is the Others should have been shown as more powerful than they have been shown, telling and not showing is bad writing and telling is 95% of what George has done with them.
Frankly, I just think you need things spelled out to you by the author, cause clearly "This guy is able to raise the dead" and "He brings with him a winter that'll make steel shatter like glass from how fucking cold it is" didn't register.

The consensus in this thread seems to be that the Other are massive threat, hinging on being undefeatable.

So there are two real problems with the Others-how much to humanize them or not, and how big of a threat should they end up being.
I, for one, think not humanzing them at all is the best route. I actually like the idea of those weird wood-creature people creating the Night King as a means to fend of humans as a last ditch effort Wunderwaffe, that horribly backfires and creates a being that has only one goal, which it strives to achieve without hatred or passion. It just does what it was created to do.

Oftentimes, the more a threat like that is explained or humanized, the less frightening it is.

Compare this to, say, Cersei winning the throne. As a court noble, you might accidentally piss her off in a way that she might want to kill you... but you might still somehow pull your ass out of that noose somehow. But when the Night King gets you, that's it. No pleading. No begging. No bargaining chip or bag of money to get you free. There is nothing he wants from you, there is no compassion in him, no remorse when he kills you.

And the fact that he might do so, just because that's his nature, is more scary than him, for instance, just "hating all living things".

Either they are inhuman monsters that must be destroyed and are defeated in the north, meaning they are just a threat to the north in the endthey are inhuman monsters that are defeated in the dead center of Westeros(maybe the Isle of Faces comes in?)-meaning some sort of deus ex machina becomes absolutely necessary for them to not simply steamroll the continent; they have motivations that can be appeased if not understood and are defeated in the north(making them even less significant) or they have motivations that can be appeased and are so at the isle of faces/trident or whatever. Which is quite anti climactic.
The thing is, defeating the Night King will also presumably gets rid of his entire army. Trying to win a (conventional) war against that army is simply not gonna happen.
Given those two options, there could be a way to handle it, I guess. The Night King sweeps down on Westeros, covering as much ground as possible and instead of actively attacking cities and castles, he merely puts siege rings around them to slowly starve and freeze these people to death. His main army, ever growing from picking up commoners not lucky enough to be inside behind citywalls or inside a castle reinforce his army.
The army quickly gains a shitton of ground until it reaches down to King's Landing and beyond.

That would leave the Night King's army stretched out, which makes it somewhat feasible that the protagonists can attack him directly in some way...

I guess that could work, but I agree. If the Night King is stopped anywhere North of the Reach without being ever made a credible threat to King's Landing, it invalidates the entire story. He must be such a massive threat that even those in Dorne shake in piss soaked boots from merely thinking about the whole situation.

Or else, we end up with GoT S8, which was just a massive letdown.

The problem with cersei in the show is she literally should not have lasted as long as she did. The plot made Tyrion, Dany, really all the heroes complete retards for her not to lose and had Qyburn pull new inventions out of his ass just to keep her in the game. This meant that she lasted until the penultimate episode but by then she had fully eclipsed any sense of realism, in not being overthrown.
Every character was either a flanderization of their former self, had some one-note function for the plot or had no function at all.

The Hound just went "CUNT DICK COCK ASSHOLE PEEPEE POOPOO" cause him saying bad words is the height of wit, I guess. He was dragged along for Clegane Bowl... which was a massive letdown afaik.
Dany had pretty much only one function: Win the war then go crazy when she hears the bells and then getting stabbed in a SO SAD moment.
Bran was there to be delcared king ...for some reason.
Arya was gonna be Stark McNinja and killing the Night King... for some reason.
Cersei was just there to act as the BBEG that dies in the end.
Jaime's character arc was undone as a shitty WHAT A TWEEST moment and also to be killed off alongside Cersei.

Jon, Varys, Tyrion, Littlefinger, Sansa, Jorah, Grey Worm, that chubby Tarly boy, Melissandre and so on had no real function whatsoever.
These characters were too popular to kill off earlier, but the writers simply had nothing for them to actually do, so they were just sorta dragged along for the ride until they were either killed off to milk their popularity one final time in a shitty shock death or they just farted about in the background until the credits rolled.
It's especially bad with characters like Varys and Tyrion, cause they were supposed to be smart and savvy, but the writers are such braindead morons, they could not come up with even witty dialogue (let alone anything for them to do), so the smartest and most savvy characters suddenly acted like utter morons. Besides Jaime, the most obvious implosion of the character writing.
 
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Martin either has to one-make the Others an army of truly evil ice fae that really do just want to kill everyone and blanket the world in eternal cold, or make them somehow approachable, perhaps with an Azor Ahai esque sacrifice.

Neither solution works-if they can be reasoned with, or at least appeased either through straight diplomacy or some sort of sacrifice then why build them up as a threat? If they are just a bunch of evil ice monsters with an army of zombies-well that’s rather boring.

There’s also the issue of how far they advance-if they reach all the way to the trident-then the north is pretty much a dead zone, but then Winterfell makes sense (get it Winter fell) but then that does mean they end up being a northern problem-and like in the show that just means cersei was right not to care.

If they make it further than the Trident then they become unstoppable what with all the corpses and undead animals they can raise. And it becomes truly a deus ex machina to defeat them.
The Others and men basically cannot exist together the way that the Others are presented. Either you wall them off or someone has to overrun the other group if the wall or barrier breaks. The Others bring cold, famine, plague, zombies, and death for all life. A men bring fire and life and need warm air, sun, and land to exist. The Others are presented as being apocalyptic.

But this problem of the 'great threat' is constantly seen in Japanese animation shows. Where every season the good guys fight new sets of bad guys who get progressively more powerful. So in the first seasons of the show people are fighting with hand to hand techniques and small magic spells. But by the end of the series are throwing planet sized fireballs at each other and summoning elder gods and time traveling and the power levels bloat to levels where the fights are unrecognizable. ASOIAF was probably going to be the same. Where the first books people are using swords and shields. Next few books people are coming back from the dead, using smaller dragons, wildfire. Last books you have giant spells, flaming swords, living gods, enormous dragons, ice demons, giant spiders, giants. The power level and scale of the conflict was building up. And the geographical scale of the conflict should be larger as well. Going from centering on the Iron Throne to basically the entire world dealing with the Others.

If the Others do not make it to the Trident nor King's Landings then they were less powerful and less of a threat than Robb's or Stannis's army or basically any other Westerosi army. And do not make for a compelling final villain, large threat, nor great writing. Which is exactly what happened on HBO. All the buildup of the battle of life and death for it to be nothing. First chapter of this series is about the Others. The last chapters of conflict not being about the Others would be legacy killing as much as the HBO was.

And with time you do not need a deus ex machina or last second savior. GRRM could write the battle against the Other costing humanity something like nearly all of Westeros and even some of Essos. The Others push humanity into one or two regions of the world but finally Jon Snow and his band of companions go into the Land of Always Winter to defeat the Night's King or whatever. The battle against the Others rages for decades but humanity barely prevails. Of course this would require great planning and tons of writing. So we might get the HBO version of 'the long hour' instead of the Long Night.
In my view-none of these four permutations are satisfying, either to the readers or Martin himself, and that is part of the reason the book series is pretty much been abandoned.

The problem with cersei in the show is she literally should not have lasted as long as she did. The plot made Tyrion, Dany, really all the heroes complete retards for her not to lose and had Qyburn pull new inventions out of his ass just to keep her in the game. This meant that she lasted until the penultimate episode but by then she had fully eclipsed any sense of realism, in not being overthrown.
There really is not enough time to have the Others be a major threat in two books. Everyone said that GRRM got stuck in his Mereneese Knot. But the reality is that the story of the Others is the big hurdle for this series. D&D basically 'solved' the Mereneese Knot through brute force. Have Dany's dragons just rapidly age with no explanation. Move her across to Westeros with those dragons. And have her arrival force all of the POV characters to basically converge onto her no matter where they are. Then take a five minute break to deal with the Others, and get right back into the fight over the Iron Throne. It is the Others that throw the narrative all over the place.

Cersei and the other characters last long because GRRM is no longer killing anyone off anymore until the last possible second. Catelyn comes back. Jon is coming back. Mance had a fake death. Davos has a fake death. More cliffhanger chapters. Characters are wandering aimlessly from Dorne to Slaver's Bay. Some POV characters will probably die in the end like Cersei. But until then, they are wearing the thickest plot armor possible. Tyrion survives getting captured, multiple trials, losing a trial, multiple battles, an assassination attempt, riots, immune to greyscale, slavery, because this is how GRRM likes to write. Should Tyrion have lasted until the end of the show? Bran? A cripple who wanders into the land of zombies with almost no protection? Writers have their favorite characters. GRRM clearly has his favorites.
 
I dunno, Cersei is shown as way to much of a fuck up. I wouldn't consider her the "big bad", but at the same time everyone's goal outside of Jon are on the Iron Throne so it gives it the perception of having far more importance so I see what you mean.
This was also my issue with the finale. Shunting The Others into one episode and destroying the whole point of their story was bad, but even if they wanted to focus on the human conflict come the end of the story, it lacks a good and intimidating antagonist. Cersei is a retarded fuck up who had, like, one good plan. There's no satisfaction in seeing her die, really.
 
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“I, for one, think not humanzing them at all is the best route. I actually like the idea of those weird wood-creature people creating the Night King as a means to fend of humans as a last ditch effort Wunderwaffe, that horribly backfires and creates a being that has only one goal, which it strives to achieve without hatred or passion. It just does what it was created to do.

Oftentimes, the more a threat like that is explained or humanized, the less frightening it is.

Compare this to, say, Cersei winning the throne. As a court noble, you might accidentally piss her off in a way that she might want to kill you... but you might still somehow pull your ass out of that noose somehow. But when the Night King gets you, that's it. No pleading. No begging. No bargaining chip or bag of money to get you free. There is nothing he wants from you, there is no compassion in him, no remorse when he kills you.

And the fact that he might do so, just because that's his nature, is more scary than him, for instance, just "hating all living things".”

There is no NK in the books. In fact there is no indication they have any sense of hierarchy or a central ruling figure. In the show the White Walkers are the COTF creating an anti human super weapon.

In the books that’s not entirely clear-their origin that is.

Cersei by the end of the show is a drunken window watcher. Who reigns through plotium and Qyburn being about three centuries ahead in terms of his understanding of science!, somehow not losing control of the Westerlands(who are completely ignored in the show past the second season), and undead Gregor. She’s even less stable and imposing in the books-and likely could die in Winds. If she doesn’t she’ll be Euron’s bitch, not him her’s.

“The thing is, defeating the Night King will also presumably gets rid of his entire army. Trying to win a (conventional) war against that army is simply not gonna happen.
Given those two options, there could be a way to handle it, I guess. The Night King sweeps down on Westeros, covering as much ground as possible and instead of actively attacking cities and castles, he merely puts siege rings around them to slowly starve and freeze these people to death. His main army, ever growing from picking up commoners not lucky enough to be inside behind citywalls or inside a castle reinforce his army.
The army quickly gains a shitton of ground until it reaches down to King's Landing and beyond.

That would leave the Night King's army stretched out, which makes it somewhat feasible that the protagonists can attack him directly in some way...

I guess that could work, but I agree. If the Night King is stopped anywhere North of the Reach without being ever made a credible threat to King's Landing, it invalidates the entire story. He must be such a massive threat that even those in Dorne shake in piss soaked boots from merely thinking about the whole situation.

Or else, we end up with GoT S8, which was just a massive letdown.”

As stated the others have no central leader and I doubt Martin would have it be so simple as a mother ship dies the drones drop plot.

As for the scenario you describe-if things get that dire there is no non deus ex machina way to win.

“Every character was either a flanderization of their former self, had some one-note function for the plot or had no function at all.

The Hound just went "CUNT DICK COCK ASSHOLE PEEPEE POOPOO" cause him saying bad words is the height of wit, I guess. He was dragged along for Clegane Bowl... which was a massive letdown afaik.
Dany had pretty much only one function: Win the war then go crazy when she hears the bells and then getting stabbed in a SO SAD moment.
Bran was there to be delcared king ...for some reason.
Arya was gonna be Stark McNinja and killing the Night King... for some reason.
Cersei was just there to act as the BBEG that dies in the end.
Jaime's character arc was undone as a shitty WHAT A TWEEST moment and also to be killed off alongside Cersei.

Jon, Varys, Tyrion, Littlefinger, Sansa, Jorah, Grey Worm, that chubby Tarly boy, Melissandre and so on had no real function whatsoever.
These characters were too popular to kill off earlier, but the writers simply had nothing for them to actually do, so they were just sorta dragged along for the ride until they were either killed off to milk their popularity one final time in a shitty shock death or they just farted about in the background until the credits rolled.
It's especially bad with characters like Varys and Tyrion, cause they were supposed to be smart and savvy, but the writers are such braindead morons, they could not come up with even witty dialogue (let alone anything for them to do), so the smartest and most savvy characters suddenly acted like utter morons. Besides Jaime, the most obvious implosion of the character writing.”

A lot of character arcs are derailed because they are clearly merged with book characters or because they should be dead or in different states. Tyrion in the books will be villainous, Dany will be out for blood as soon as she reaches Dragonstone, Sansa and Arya won’t be flanderized but they will be changed. Varys won’t be supporting Daenerys at all. Jon will likely be different having come back from the dead and all.

And so on. It is clear to me D&D were using a skeletal outline of what Martin told them, with most of the threads cut.

(Apologies my multi quote function isn’t working)
 
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