Game of Thrones Thread

draggs said:
Another thing that gets me is it seems like civilization has barely progressed in 8000 years, 8000 years before ASOIAF things were generally like a mid bronze age level, and in ASOIAF some things are early middle ages level some are late middle ages/early Renaissance level. 8000 years is a long ass time in the real world mid bronze age to today is 4000ish years
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The easy counterpoint is China and Africa getting stuck in a technological stagnation. Though those are explained by having either primitive societies that have no reason to improve, lack of access to certain natural resources or having incredibly stable regimes that are not under threat by outside forces. All things that don't seem to apply to Westeros (seemingly easy access to metal, and having a bunch of states in constant wars with each other) unless you houserule that some technological innovations are just impossible (and even then you should have a lot of mathematical renaissance innovations by now).
But purely having access to history thousands of years old (if my memory is correct) is ridiculous.
 
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wtfNeedSignUp said:
The question is whether it's GRRM being a lazy fuck and not doing the research and just using generic medieval tropes. Or actually knowing better and choosing the lazy route for the plot and his plot to get acrossed.

Also didn't he say that the Others are metaphors for climate change despite it not being a thing when the first book was written?
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He says they originally aren't but I think going by the context, he probably meant they're a force of nature that threatens humanity because people are too busy squabbling to deal with it.
 
wtfNeedSignUp said:
The easy counterpoint is China and Africa getting stuck in a technological stagnation. Though those are explained by having either primitive societies that have no reason to improve, lack of access to certain natural resources or having incredibly stable regimes that are not under threat by outside forces. All things that don't seem to apply to Westeros (seemingly easy access to metal, and having a bunch of states in constant wars with each other) unless you houserule that some technological innovations are just impossible (and even then you should have a lot of mathematical renaissance innovations by now).
But purely having access to history thousands of years old (if my memory is correct) is ridiculous.
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Isn't this down to the Maesters being very set in their ways, having access to knowledge but guarding it heavily and not allowing anyone but themselves to get into the really deep stuff?
Which in Westeros seems kind of reasonable, as the nobles are all war mongering retards and the peasants are all brain washed religious freaks.
Both seem dangerous groups to reveal deep knowledge to.
 
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draggs said:
One thing I hate about worlds like ASOIAF is that they mix the economic and technological situation of ~1600s western Europe with the feudal customs and law of ~1100s western Europe, and things like people of all levels of wealth and social status regularly traveling over huge distances like they did not until the second half of the 1900s

I know it makes for a more vibrant and interesting setting but it's so many anachronisms stuffed together and 'this is a made up world' doesn't cut it for me. The internal contradictions of the setting are massive and you can't / shouldn't be able to handwave it away with 'well this it's different because it's different'
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At least Tolkien excused his Hobbits living like the early 20th Century middle class as... well... fantasy! GRRM's gritty medieval fantasy setting meant to be taken in face value with its 'realism' while neglecting important details im real world history that strays away from the medieval realism more than it does.
 
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Death Grip said:
Isn't this down to the Maesters being very set in their ways, having access to knowledge but guarding it heavily and not allowing anyone but themselves to get into the really deep stuff?
Which in Westeros seems kind of reasonable, as the nobles are all war mongering retards and the peasants are all brain washed religious freaks.
Both seem dangerous groups to reveal deep knowledge to.
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Technically Braavos is a better location for technological innovation (lots of trade and being under threat from multiple neighbors). But at the end of the day, a technological stasis is ridiculous when Westeros can be under massive threat from within and without and not having a technological advantage can be catastrophic.
 
To be entirely fair-Westeros is not the same as medieval Europe.

Firstly the institution of the citadel and the maesters means science and learning are monopolized by one order, that’s primary function is to serve the nobility and the crown. Not it’s own progress.

Secondly-there is no or at least no large merchant class. No burghers or city charters. We see the antler men-possibly LF cronies Varys wants eliminated(if you read between the lines, but they are also merchants in King’s Landing accused of being pro Stannis). Nobles seem to monopolize economic resources-castles in westeros are so vast they are veritable towns in their own right. Winterfell is a small city. That means a lot of specialized labor exists simply to serve the starks and maintain their holdings.

Everything from smiths to seamstresses-a lot of specialized labor seems to be if it exists supporting the immediate needs of noble families and their retinues in castles and outlying castle towns. This means that expertise in glass cutting or logging or iron making is not being used to further the development of towns and cities but to maintain and preserve noble estates. So they remain weaker than the land owning nobility. In real life European history-towns were independent of feudal obligations and could and did assert their independence and right to participate in political affairs apart from the noble landowning class.

The westerosi nobility also have a strong anti merchant prejudice-that’s for cheese mongers and silk sellers in the east. Effeminate decadent men. (Obviously in real life, even the more martial of European nobles didn’t turn down their noses at trade and money making like this). But in westeros being seen as working for profit is repulsive to the nobility.

The faith also seems to be a decrepit institution-it’s temporal power broken by Maegor and that enshrined by jaeharys. It exists to serve the crown, little else. There doesn’t seem to be any real way to advance through it, you can’t become a septon and thus move up in life, or at least it’s not very common.

All of this creates a culture where economic activity is stagnant and scattered, there is little concentration of productive capital, and the attitudes of the elite class are almost comically anti intellectual.
 
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Shamash said:
To be entirely fair-Westeros is not the same as medieval Europe.

Firstly the institution of the citadel and the maesters means science and learning is monopolized by one order, that’s primary function is to serve the nobility and the crown. Not it’s own progress.

Secondly-there is no or at least no large merchant class. No burghers or city charters. We see the antler men-possibly LF cronies Varys wants eliminated(if you read between the lines, but they are also merchants in King’s Landing accused of being pro Stannis). Nobles seem to monopolize economic resources-castles in westeros are so vast they are veritable towns in their own right. Winterfell is a small city. That means a lot of specialized labor exists simply to serve the starks and maintain their holdings.

Everything from smiths to seamstresses-a lot of specialized labor seems to be if it exists supporting the immediate needs of noble families and their retinues in castles and outlying castle towns. This means that expertise in glass cutting or logging or iron making is not being used to further the development of towns and cities but to maintain and preserve noble estates. So they remain weaker than the land owning nobility. In real life European history-towns were independent of feudal obligations and could and did assert their independence and right to participate in political affairs apart from the noble landowning class.

The westerosi nobility also have a strong anti merchant prejudice-that’s for cheese mongers and silk sellers in the east. Effeminate decadent men. (Obviously in real life, even the more martial of European nobles didn’t turn down their noses at trade and money making like this). But in westeros being seen as working for profit is repulsive to the nobility.

The faith also seems to be a decrepit institution-it’s temporal power broken by Margot and that enshrined by jaeharys. It exists to serve the crown, little else. There doesn’t seem to be any real way to advance through it, you can’t become a septon and thus move up in life, or at least it’s not very common.

All of this creates a culture where economic activity is stagnant and scattered, there is little concentration of productive capital, and the attitudes of the elite class are almost comically anti intellectual.
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Westeros supposedly has 10M+ souls, so having such insane order is ridiculous. Basically everyone that's not a major noble might as well be an ant who's only purpose in life is following the nobility. In reality, major merchant guilds would have to exist to serve the general populace and they'll be filthy rich with massive pull. The Maesters themselves will have constant issues of upstarts wanting to advance technologically rather than fade into history (especially if those advances will propel their house into the top).
 
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wtfNeedSignUp said:
Westeros supposedly has 10M+ souls, so having such insane order is ridiculous. Basically everyone that's not a major noble might as well be an ant who's only purpose in life is following the nobility. In reality, major merchant guilds would have to exist to serve the general populace and they'll be filthy rich with massive pull. The Maesters themselves will have constant issues of upstarts wanting to advance technologically rather than fade into history (especially if those advances will propel their house into the top).
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I didn’t say it made sense on closer inspection. It really doesn’t.

Take Lannisport-the Lannister cadet branch at Lannisport ought to be outright independent of the Lannisters of Casterly Rock, King’s Landing ought to have dozens of merchant guilds that vie for the king’s favor and attention-getting a lot of it. There ought to be a sizable growth of towns even near the wall-with wildlings trading, as Braavosi merchants sell the night watch their wares. Hell the stormlands doesn’t even have a named town or city. (Or at least not an important one).

The Riverlands somehow have no independent cities despite abundant river access and sitting on large trade routes at the center of the continent, Beyond Maidenpool which isn’t much.

Martin’s world lacks the verisimilitude to give it genuine realism. Focusing instead on the noble families and their drama. Why is Ned Stark executing deserters? Man that passes the sword or not-he ought to have far more important things to do, that’s the task for a professional executioner, it should barely be a note on his desk.

Realistic ASOIAF is not. Contrary to what it’s marketing says.
 
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Another great unrealism is the casual brutality that peasants and slaves are treated with pretty much everywhere

Most slaves being treated like budding serial killers treat animals instead of like valuable property... nowhere in the real world would that fly. All that potential gold wasted by wasting slaves. And the slaves wouldn't need Danaerys to free them, they'd crush the Masters in all three of the Slaver's Bay cities and the freeholding nobles of Volantis like nothing by weight of numbers. Brutalized slaves aren't productive and profitable slaves, they're dangerous slaves

Nobles in Westeros riding about raping random peasant women, or serving wenches in their castles who catch their eye, putting out eyes, ripping out tongues, cutting off fingers left and right, gelding alleged rapists, putting nails through hands, hanging people in the market square by the tens and twenties, soldiers stealing from farmers and raping their wives or daughters in broad daylight at the city gates... nowhere in medieval Europe did the aristocracy generally treat peasants like that unless in the immediate aftermath of battle or during the sacking of a city. Not all the time lol. There'd be lords getting killed constantly by peasant uprisings and assassinations

But in ASOIAF this kind of shit happens all day every day almost everywhere, and those peasants and slaves terribly outnumbering the elite and also having ample means, motive, and opportunity to poison their food or stab them in the stomach doesn't seem to worry that elite very much with no visible reason for their cavalier attitude
 
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draggs said:
Another great unrealism is the casual brutality that peasants and slaves are treated with pretty much everywhere

Most slaves being treated like budding serial killers treat animals instead of like valuable property... nowhere in the real world would that fly. All that potential gold wasted by wasting slaves. And the slaves wouldn't need Danaerys to free them, they'd crush the Masters in all three of the Slaver's Bay cities and the freeholding nobles of Volantis like nothing by weight of numbers. Brutalized slaves aren't productive and profitable slaves, they're dangerous slaves

Nobles in Westeros riding about raping random peasant women, or serving wenches in their castles who catch their eye, putting out eyes, ripping out tongues, cutting off fingers left and right, gelding alleged rapists, putting nails through hands, hanging people in the market square by the tens and twenties, soldiers stealing from farmers and raping their wives or daughters in broad daylight at the city gates... nowhere in medieval Europe did the aristocracy generally treat peasants like that unless in the immediate aftermath of battle or during the sacking of a city. Not all the time lol. There'd be lords getting killed constantly by peasant uprisings and assassinations

But in ASOIAF this kind of shit happens all day every day almost everywhere, and those peasants and slaves terribly outnumbering the elite and also having ample means, motive, and opportunity to poison their food or stab them in the stomach doesn't seem to worry that elite very much with no visible reason for their cavalier attitude
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Ironic that GRRM seems to be following how Renaissance writers interpreted medieval history, yet whose volatile political and religious atmosphere in the story is more reflective of the Renaissance itself.
 
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Apparently, HBO has no confidence in the House of the Dragon. I'm also guessing Kit Harrington needs the work.

CWCissey said:
Just let Jon fuck about with his Wildling mates
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HBO clearly is concerned about people cancelling their subscriptions, and they don't have any confidence in GOT prequels.
 
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Wait, there’s going to be a dunk and egg series? Huh. I’m curious about how that will come about
 
draggs said:
Another great unrealism is the casual brutality that peasants and slaves are treated with pretty much everywhere

Most slaves being treated like budding serial killers treat animals instead of like valuable property... nowhere in the real world would that fly. All that potential gold wasted by wasting slaves. And the slaves wouldn't need Danaerys to free them, they'd crush the Masters in all three of the Slaver's Bay cities and the freeholding nobles of Volantis like nothing by weight of numbers. Brutalized slaves aren't productive and profitable slaves, they're dangerous slaves

Nobles in Westeros riding about raping random peasant women, or serving wenches in their castles who catch their eye, putting out eyes, ripping out tongues, cutting off fingers left and right, gelding alleged rapists, putting nails through hands, hanging people in the market square by the tens and twenties, soldiers stealing from farmers and raping their wives or daughters in broad daylight at the city gates... nowhere in medieval Europe did the aristocracy generally treat peasants like that unless in the immediate aftermath of battle or during the sacking of a city. Not all the time lol. There'd be lords getting killed constantly by peasant uprisings and assassinations

But in ASOIAF this kind of shit happens all day every day almost everywhere, and those peasants and slaves terribly outnumbering the elite and also having ample means, motive, and opportunity to poison their food or stab them in the stomach doesn't seem to worry that elite very much with no visible reason for their cavalier attitude
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Did the show at least do what the books did and had the slaves actually say that their situation before being "liberated" was preferable to what they had once their masters were gone and their life skills not having a lot of point in the war torn middle east? On one hand slavery bad, on the other hand it's "enlightened arabic slavery".
 
wtfNeedSignUp said:
Did the show at least do what the books did and had the slaves actually say that their situation before being "liberated" was preferable to what they had once their masters were gone and their life skills not having a lot of point in the war torn middle east? On one hand slavery bad, on the other hand it's "enlightened arabic slavery".
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There was a scene where a character said that and Dany basically said to the masters 'OK, if they really want to, you can keep a slave, but you'd better fucking pay 'em!' IIRC
 
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CWCissey said:
There was a scene where a character said that and Dany basically said to the masters 'OK, if they really want to, you can keep a slave, but you'd better fucking pay 'em!' IIRC
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That's really retarded considering that dethroning/destroying the nobility means reduced demands for slaves and that the slaves themselves were used to have their basic needs taken care for.
 
wtfNeedSignUp said:
That's really retarded considering that dethroning/destroying the nobility means reduced demands for slaves and that the slaves themselves were used to have their basic needs taken care for.
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That was the point. Dany is naive and definitely insane from dat Targaryen incest. David and Goliath made her a stronk womyn like the retards they are.
 
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