Game of Thrones Thread

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Has he?

Like, I know he kind of just utterly destroyed the few houses that rebelled when he called in their debt, but other than that he specifically stayed out of Roberts Rebellion, and his one action in it was basically just fucking over someone that thought he was an ally.

Like I said, been a long time since I cared so what am I forgetting?
Tywin fought the Reynes, who were experiences warriors, and he fought in the War Ninepenny Kings. He was already a war veteran before having the Reynes destroyed, since he fought the Golden Company back when the Blackfyres were still a thing.
 
Tywin fought the Reynes, who were experiences warriors, and he fought in the War Ninepenny Kings. He was already a war veteran before having the Reynes destroyed, since he fought the Golden Company back when the Blackfyres were still a thing.
GURM's world building is like a matryoshka doll of bad ideas.
 
GRRM's world building is like a matryoshka doll of bad ideas.
Basically, yes. This is what happens when a journo tries to write a medieval fantasy without understanding why medieval customs existed. He basically dropped postmodern people in a pre-modern world, just to mock the medieval world's laws and regulations. Like how he has non-religious characters inhabit what should be a religious world, when in reality, even people who didn't have much faith in the Middle Ages still acted in its best interest and persecuted heretics, like when monarchs who were at war with the Pope like Emperor Frederick II of the Holy Roman Empire still burned heretics who fought against Catholicism at the stake. Because despite his strained relationship with the Pope and the Church, Frederick II was still a Catholic, and he still believed in the faith somewhat even as his troops slaughter defiant priests and desecrate their churches.

The difference with this is something you can clearly see if you watch other shows set in pre-modern times like Three Kingdoms 2010. In that show, for instance, there's no doubt that tradition demands for a lord to place his eldest son as his heir. When the benevolent and courteous Liu Bei went to Jing Province to serve as a lieutenant in his kinsman Liu Biao's army, he was asked by the latter on how to settle a dispute on succession. Liu Biao has an elder son, but the younger son is related to a powerful family which has a large stake in the Jing Province military, and they want the younger son to inherit. Liu Bei advised Liu Biao that doing so goes against tradition, and that he should put his foot down and place his elder son as heir no matter what, because that's what tradition demanded. This is the guy who's been portrayed as the benevolent one, and yet he always defers to tradition and curses out those who don't.

If Liu Bei and his boys wound up in Westeros during the Dance of the Dragons, no doubt, he'd support the Green Faction through and through. Even though he's a good guy who believes in enforcing the law and being benevolent to the people, he'd take one good look at the Greens vs. Blacks thing and say that the Hightowers were right, since the Black faction wishes to defy tradition and place a woman on the throne, while the Green faction has centuries of tradition behind them. Even if Viserys sought his advice, Liu Bei would tell him to his face that he should disinherit Rhaenyra and make Aegon be the next in line, since that's what tradition demands, and going against tradition would just lead to more conflict. And if the civil war started with him there, Liu Bei and his bros would fight proudly on the side of the Greens, believing that tradition demands it, and that tradition should rightfully be obeyed.
 
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Basically, yes. This is what happens when a journo tries to write a medieval fantasy without understanding why medieval customs existed. He basically dropped postmodern people in a pre-modern world, just to mock the medieval world's laws and regulations.
Yeah, pretty much. I remember watching a retrospective on GoT and the guy was saying that Jon should have been the guy to take down the Night King, since his entire story up to that point was building the coalition of the living to face the army of the dead, and that actions have consequences, that should have been his fight.

Which got me thinking that yeah, if the premise of your writing is that actions have consequences, then those consequences can be good as well. Three Kingdoms exemplifies this with the Peach Garden Oath, where the unwavering honor and loyalty of the three brothers is so valuable because both they and everyone else knows that they are bound by that.

But of course that's not edgy enough for GURM, so you can do everything perfectly, but the second you slip up you're done. Nobody gets cut any slack, no good deed is rewarded, no virtue goes unpunished. This is his idea of "realism."
 
Yeah, pretty much. I remember watching a retrospective on GoT and the guy was saying that Jon should have been the guy to take down the Night King, since his entire story up to that point was building the coalition of the living to face the army of the dead, and that actions have consequences, that should have been his fight.
This is the number one repeated plot point in ASOIAF. GRRM finds the "heroic knight" or "prince charming" story then inverts it into some retarded and ridiculous plot twist. Where the knight is just about to fight in battle then dies shitting on the toilet of medieval pox instead. The first time or second time it was still shocking. The fifteenth then twentieth time it became expected and eye rolling. And now it's just cringe worthy "subverting expectations" hack level writing.

- Ned Stark is built up as the honorable protagonist. Investigates Joffrey's parentage. Informs Cersei in the most boneheaded way that he plans to arrest her and her children and possibly open them up to being executed for treason. All that buildup for Ned to die an idiot who gave his entire plan away to the enemy.

- Drogo is built up as a killer warrior. Will ride to Westeros. He dies from a minor flesh wound. Instead it's his wife who will go to Westeros as the killer. All that buildup to have him die because he lets a witch whose entire village he just raped attend to his wounds instead of an actual healer that his riders used before.

- Robb Stark is a genius general. Winning battles right left. Decides to marry a random peasant woman. Dishonors entire House. Now he and his mother decide to go to the Freys without guards. And are shockingly murdered. All that buildup just for some gore porn deaths. GRRM would reuse this exact scenario of big wedding deaths with Joffrey as well.

- Quentyn Martell is Prince Charming. Rescuing the damsel in distress and bringing home the princess. He gets burned alive by dragons like an utter retard by walking into a dragon pit and pulling a dragon's tale and harassing it. All that buildup just for the character to do one of the dumbest things in the history of fantasy literature. He's like that retard scientist from Prometheus that pets the space cobra and it eats through his suit and kills him.

- Jon Snow. Rightful King. Head of Night's Watch. Groomed for command all his life. Rejects Iron Throne outright. Even kills his pregnant wife. Rides into Wildling territory and exiles himself.

The point is that GRRM likes to build up his characters then have them go insane or braindead in one second. Stannis, Dany, Lysa, there probably dozens of other examples as well.
 
Yeah, pretty much. I remember watching a retrospective on GoT and the guy was saying that Jon should have been the guy to take down the Night King, since his entire story up to that point was building the coalition of the living to face the army of the dead, and that actions have consequences, that should have been his fight.
GRRM would likely not have the Night King be killed by Jon. Ideas of prophecy and divine-right monarchs saving people disgust GRRM, so that whole thing with Arya killing the Night King is something I can see GRRM doing, since it's a subversion of a trope, like how Ned dying was a subversion. If ASOIAF worked the way other fantasy stories worked, Ned would've defeated Cersei, and Robb, who had already proven himself on the field, would've defeated Tywin.

Speaking of which, it would've been funny to see more ROTK tactics being used in ASOIAF. Especially since the Battle of Blackwater already looks like the Battle of Red Cliff. Like maybe, with Tywin Lannister staying in Harrenhal to avoid engaging Robb Stark in the field, Robb would send a ''gift box'' to Tywin with a woman's dress inside, and a letter saying that the dress is for Tywin, since he ''fights like a girl'' by staying behind high walls. I could just imagine Tywin's rage when he sees that message and that dress, and the utter humiliation his generals and soldiers would feel at that insult.

Which got me thinking that yeah, if the premise of your writing is that actions have consequences, then those consequences can be good as well. Three Kingdoms exemplifies this with the Peach Garden Oath, where the unwavering honor and loyalty of the three brothers is so valuable because both they and everyone else knows that they are bound by that.
That also came to bite the brothers in the ass. When Guan Yu died thanks to Wu soldiers and his own hubris, Liu Bei sought vengeance and ignored the Wei forces who overthrew the Han Emperor, instead devoting most of his army to vengeance. That then led to the death of Liu Bei's brother, Zhang Fei, thanks to the latter's alcoholism and mistreatment of his troops, and Liu Bei's own death, when the war against Wu turned sour for him.

But of course that's not edgy enough for GURM, so you can do everything perfectly, but the second you slip up you're done. Nobody gets cut any slack, no good deed is rewarded, no virtue goes unpunished. This is his idea of "realism."
His idea of realism is that if you're a good person, you get fucked in the ass with no hope. It really shows to the world that GRRM is really in a stage of depression, if the good guys in his works just end up getting fucked by the world.

This is the number one repeated plot point in ASOIAF. GRRM finds the "heroic knight" or "prince charming" story then inverts it into some retarded and ridiculous plot twist. Where the knight is just about to fight in battle then dies shitting on the toilet of medieval pox instead. The first time or second time it was still shocking. The fifteenth then twentieth time it became expected and eye rolling. And now it's just cringe worthy "subverting expectations" hack level writing.
The thing is, that would've been bold ten to twenty years ago, but now, it's just hack writing that reeks of laziness. With how ''subverted'' our view of media is, a straightforward fantasy story where good triumphs and evil is destroyed would actually be the subversion to the norm.

GRRM strikes me as one of those pseudo-intellectuals that had a decent idea for a story, but then he lays it over with too much detail, and it becomes weighed down by it. That, and his penchant for subverting things could end with plotlines that have been developing for years ending up being nothing. That's why I'm not really digging the Euron subplot in the books. Sure, it sounds awesome, him becoming some kind of eldritch god, but it could all just end up being nothing, and he's just some pirate who's lost his marbles on the poop deck.

Same goes for Jon Snow becoming Westeros' pseudo-messiah. He could just end up staying dead on the table, and someone else like Stannis, Arya, the Lannisters, or the Boltons could wind up dealing with the White Walkers, especially since all you need are dudes with crossbows and dragonglass bolts to kill the Walkers, and the Wights could be easily dealt with using fire. Fire arrows and wildfire are more than enough.

Given that the crown could create wildfire on the fly, since they have the Mad King's alchemists, they can make enough wildfire to burn the entire undead army, and the walkers get shot by dragonglass crossbow bolts. Or, do as the show did and have some leader among them that gets stabbed by a trained assassin like Arya. You don't need supernatural tools to defeat the White Walkers. Just some fire, some obsidian, and some ten to twenty thousand competent men.

At the end of the day, that ending the show had was made with GRRM's outline, and as much as the fans might deny it, his themes are all over it. The divine-right monarch who had the support and blessing of the Lord of Light ends up blowtorching the capital when the enemy kills her friend and then surrenders, and she believes that it's attempt to deny her the vengeance she thought was due. The anointed messiah who came back from the dead winds up not being the one who defeats the evil Night King, it's the assassin girl with the really sharp knife who does the ice demon in.

The message shown by the ending is that you shouldn't put too much faith in divine-right monarchs or religious prophecies, which is exactly what GRRM has been trying to teach through ASOIAF by making the religious kooks like Melisandre into nutcases, and divine-right monarchs like Joffrey and Robert are portrayed at best as well-meaning but flawed, and in the worst, as downright evil. This is how the cookie crumbles. And the book fans who think GRRM would write something better are at best, deluding themselves. The man doesn't know how to end things properly. And his constant ideas of subverting is why he's so concerned about what the audience thinks, when the author should ideally just push on through and care only about what he thinks is best for the story.

When Tolkien got to work for a sequel to LOTR, he found it tiresome and depressing, so he cancelled it and kept to the idea that the story ended after Return of the King, with only some background info on what happened afterwards. GRRM would've been the kind of person who'd write that LOTR part 2, only to get bogged down and never finish it.
 
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Hell, one thing I've always found puzzling was how Robb Stark managed to give Tywin such a hard time militarily. Given Tywin's reputation, you'd think he was comparable to Richard the Lionheart, Cao Cao, or Alexander the Great, yet he spends a good chunk of his time in the books getting turkey-slapped by a Northern boy less than half his age, a fucking teenager. Sure, the Stark boy has veteran commanders with him, but is Tywin not a veteran as well? A veteran of wars against the Reynes and the Gold Company who were also experienced warriors? Tywin should've been more than well-equipped to handle Robb Stark.
Robb warged Greywind and could spy Tywin's camp. Not only Martin confirmed all six kids can warg, but there is evidence when Robb and the direwolf look like it's happening. The biggest example is Robb simply staring at nothing for hours. He was warging Greywind. The direwolves aren't that smart either, whenever he was acting smart, it was Robb.
 
I always saw Tywin as an expert statesman rather than a military leader. Jaime was more of the military leader and he was taken prisoner fairly early. It also helps that the northmen were probably more capable (due to harsher living environment) and had better moral (due to actual grievances rather than a pointless war due to your retarded princeling). Plus there's always the handy "people underestimated Robb due to his age".
Not to mention that Tywin did smash the Northern Army that was led by Roose Bolton.

Robb only took the Calvary / other nobles with him to relieve the siege of Riverrun.
 
What did Moorcock make that stuck around besides maybe the idea of dark elves (which is very basic subversion)? Even the Order vs Chaos war is more well known for Warhammer than Elric.

To be honest Moorcock was a pretty obvious influence on both early DnD and Warhammer, which in turn hugely influenced most of the modern fantasyslop. But I'd say that in most things his influence was superifical. For example, IIRC he was the first guy to coin the word "Multiverse", but the way in which is it used today is completely different (countless versions of the same reality, instead of completely different dimensions vaguely overlaying each other). Compared to the greats, like Tolkien, H.P. Lovecraft, or Robert Howard, Moorcock is largely forgotten, with his works getting only a handful of relatively obscure adaptations, and I'd argue even some second-tier authors like Jack Vance, are remembered more.

Of course. Just like Disney, GRRM hates the ''toxic fans'' and he promotes leftism through his works. This whole ''Dance of Dragons'' thing was him whining about the patriarchy not accepting female leaders and the problems it caused; the idea that they would turn down a perfectly good leader just because she doesn't have a chubby between her legs.

Well... the message might have worked better had he managed to write Rhaenyra as a perfectly good or even a passable leader. The series portrays her as a really shitty human being even, and as for her leadership, it consists of letting Daemon do everything and then huffing and puffing when he fails to perfectly read her intentions or to prioritize her emotional needs over survival of their entire faction. Really makes you wonder what all these self-ascribed male feminists actually think about women🤔. I haven't read the book, but as far as the Internet told me she's the prime culprit for the Blacks nearly managing to get wiped out, despite holding every advantage and Martin handing them victories left and right.
 
Well... the message might have worked better had he managed to write Rhaenyra as a perfectly good or even a passable leader. The series portrays her as a really shitty human being even, and as for her leadership, it consists of letting Daemon do everything and then huffing and puffing when he fails to perfectly read her intentions or to prioritize her emotional needs over survival of their entire faction. Really makes you wonder what all these self-ascribed male feminists actually think about women🤔. I haven't read the book, but as far as the Internet told me she's the prime culprit for the Blacks nearly managing to get wiped out, despite holding every advantage and Martin handing them victories left and right.
The book within the book about Rhaenyra is written by people who are supportive of the Greens (same way World of Ice and Fire was written by a maester who was sympathetic to the Lannisters). Rhaenyra was the rightful heir, and historians within the story have made clear that she was the traitor who didn't want to kneel to her brother.

At the end, it's just coping because Rhaenyra and Daemon's children are the current line of Targaryen rule.
 
Robb warged Greywind and could spy Tywin's camp. Not only Martin confirmed all six kids can warg, but there is evidence when Robb and the direwolf look like it's happening. The biggest example is Robb simply staring at nothing for hours. He was warging Greywind. The direwolves aren't that smart either, whenever he was acting smart, it was Robb.
If that was the case, you'd think he'd have caught wind of the Red Wedding before it happened. Especially when he knows Walder Frey is pissed at him for spurning their marriage deal.

To be honest Moorcock was a pretty obvious influence on both early DnD and Warhammer, which in turn hugely influenced most of the modern fantasyslop.
Basically, morally grey fantasy, as opposed to Tolkien's religious fantasy where good is rewarded and evil is punished.

But I'd say that in most things his influence was superifical. For example, IIRC he was the first guy to coin the word "Multiverse", but the way in which is it used today is completely different (countless versions of the same reality, instead of completely different dimensions vaguely overlaying each other).
Really? I seem to remember the comic book people came up with the multiverse concept first. There's comics that are older than my boomer parents that used the term back in the late 1930s. Elric first appeared in 1961.

Compared to the greats, like Tolkien, H.P. Lovecraft, or Robert Howard, Moorcock is largely forgotten, with his works getting only a handful of relatively obscure adaptations, and I'd argue even some second-tier authors like Jack Vance, are remembered more.
Basically, yes. Elric derivatives are more remembered than Elric himself, and Moorcock is largely forgotten. Which is why Moorcock fans like Razorfist are really cheesed when an albino-haired dude with a sword becomes popular, be it Daemon Targaryen or Geralt of Rivia, since they are supposedly inspired by Elric.

I say supposedly because I have a hard time buying it.

Well... the message might have worked better had he managed to write Rhaenyra as a perfectly good or even a passable leader. The series portrays her as a really shitty human being even, and as for her leadership, it consists of letting Daemon do everything and then huffing and puffing when he fails to perfectly read her intentions or to prioritize her emotional needs over survival of their entire faction. Really makes you wonder what all these self-ascribed male feminists actually think about women🤔. I haven't read the book, but as far as the Internet told me she's the prime culprit for the Blacks nearly managing to get wiped out, despite holding every advantage and Martin handing them victories left and right.
There's also the fact that she's just not responsible enough. She refuses to find a proper husband and then dallies around with her uncle and some knight. It would've been better if Rhaenyra took the fucking Blackwood kid to bed considering that he was willing to kill a man for slighting him. Either him or the Lannister dude-that would've secured her throne by getting a walking ATM machine on her side. Both men had ancestors who were kings, they're a good match. Or, Rhaenyra could've just been honest to her dad in the first place and wedded her uncle, telling her dad to make his son Aegon the new heir instead, since Daemon got disinherited.

In another reality for Westeros, the Dance never happened; Rhaenyra persuaded her father to pass on the throne to Alicent's son Aegon, while she ran off with Daemon and Harwin Strong to the East and see all its sights and sounds. Daemon goes full Aladdin and shows her the world, and he, along with Harwin Strong, give Rhaenyra a fulfilling sex life while Aegon II, Otto, and Alicent are left running Westeros, plowing through a mountain of paperwork every day that pertains to running the kingdom, while Aemond and Ser Criston have to go to war against Dorne because they invaded the Reach for the umpteenth fucking time.

The book within the book about Rhaenyra is written by people who are supportive of the Greens (same way World of Ice and Fire was written by a maester who was sympathetic to the Lannisters). Rhaenyra was the rightful heir, and historians within the story have made clear that she was the traitor who didn't want to kneel to her brother.

At the end, it's just coping because Rhaenyra and Daemon's children are the current line of Targaryen rule.
By Targaryen standards, the dragon answers to no one, so Rhaenyra is heir because her father said so. But by Westerosi standards, Rhaenyra was the usurper, since her father went against centuries of tradition to name her heir, and her father was wrong to do so, since male primogeniture was always the tradition.
 
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If that was the case, you'd think he'd have caught wind of the Red Wedding before it happened. Especially when he knows Walder Frey is pissed at him for spurning their marriage deal.
For that to happen, he should have been close to the Freys when they were plannning it all. All Greywind did was to sneak around the camp of the Lannisters and know what they planned, discover new paths the Northerns didn't know, etc. That gave Robb a big advantage in battle.

By Targaryen standards, the dragon answers to no one, so Rhaenyra is heir because her father said so. But by Westerosi standards, Rhaenyra was the usurper, since her father went against centuries of tradition to name her heir, and her father was wrong to do so, since male primogeniture was always the tradition.
Her father was the King, that's why what he said was law. Not only he named her, he also educated her to be the new ruler.

Rather than tradition, the problem against the Targaryens was the Faith, they never liked them. That's why they sided with the Greens, as the Hightowers were not only followers but supporters of them. I'm sure that, had Aegon being a girl, they would have found a way to make her the actual heir.
 
For that to happen, he should have been close to the Freys when they were plannning it all. All Greywind did was to sneak around the camp of the Lannisters and know what they planned, discover new paths the Northerns didn't know, etc. That gave Robb a big advantage in battle.
Wouldn't Tywin be planning his war plans deep in some secluded part of the camp? I mean, even human spies would've known his plans if he was planning it out in the open. Also, wouldn't he also employ spies to know Robb's plans?

Her father was the King, that's why what he said was law. Not only he named her, he also educated her to be the new ruler.
Not even kings exist above tradition. Otherwise Maegor would be right to kill nobles, eradicate the Faith Militant, and have six wives.

Rather than tradition, the problem against the Targaryens was the Faith, they never liked them. That's why they sided with the Greens, as the Hightowers were not only followers but supporters of them. I'm sure that, had Aegon being a girl, they would have found a way to make her the actual heir.
If Aegon was a girl, Aemond would get the throne. Again, it was all about male primogeniture, which is what GRRM was talking about.
 
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Wow, I thought for sure they'd hire The Great Khali after that casting call that said they didn't care about race or whatever.
At least the actor they chose is 6 and half feet tall. For some reason I was expecting a bald east Asian kid as Egg.

After Winds of Winter is released I'll give a look. Maybe it'll be fine.
 

‘Game of Thrones’ Prequel ‘Knight of the Seven Kingdoms: The Hedge Knight’ Casts Peter Claffey, Dexter Sol Ansell in Lead Roles​

I'm just surprised they cast an attractive white guy to play Dunk. I thought for sure he was going to be played by a black guy when I saw the "any race" casting call put out for him. Guess Gurm finally put his foot down for once.
 
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