Game of Thrones Thread

I don't think she was even good at that. Cersai only survived by being protected by more competent men, plus the sheer idiocy of Ned Stark. On her own she is way too impatient and spiteful to actually manipulate and make complex plots.
It's similar for Dany, who only survived this far due to zealous allies and her dragons. She was a terrible ruler that routinely made the worse choices and got protected by plot armor.


She's alright if this was Ck2 she'd be an intrigue 10 vs the Ned 4 and littlefingers and Tyrions 18-21, her big flaw is she cannot calculate differant aghendas to her own because she can't relate to others, has terrible impulse control and her inability to cultivate personal loyalty.

Dany gets a bit of a bum rap, while some of her achievements are dumb luck she does have a clear talent for diplomacy, cultivating personal affection and interest in actually ruling, her flaws are also a lot less severe then cersai while having her capacity to scheme and bullshit. She's not my prefered king (tywin) but she's about as functional as anyone gets.
 
Game of Thrones fucked up the ending so badly that tbh it made me rethink bothering with the books. I stopped about halfway through A Feast For Crows and haven't picked it back up, really since even before the final season started, because I could see so much where the books and show had diverged past any realistic "fixing" of the story. I knew that GRRM was basically typing with one finger on an old typewriter when it comes to pace and thus knew there would come a point where the show would outpace the book, and I knew that there were already a lot of changes that happened or events that happen in the book and weren't even feasible in the show such as the Lady Stoneheart arc. But it all just went completely to shit, it seems. They fucked Stannis over so hard, they ruined any good qualities Daenerys had, they ruined the suspense and dread of the Night King and the white walkers. The last season gets the brunt of the disdain but tbh the show started going downhill before that, it was just an acceptable amount rather than "why did I just waste my time watching this".

The lesson from GoT to take away is no matter how good your beginning or middle is, if the end of the show is a shit show it doesn't matter. I dont think theres another show that fell as far and ended as poorly as GoTs did. I mean, halfway through season 8 everyone was watching just to be a conpletionist and to see the trainwreck happen in real time. I'd be really surprised if D&D ever get their own show again tbh. Anybody giving them money might as well burn it.
I would argue Dexter but then again Dexter was never really the "in" thing to the extent that Game of Thrones was. Dexter was something that adults watched but didn't really chatter about because they don't want to discuss a show about a serial killer around the watercooler. Dragons and swordplay and fucking? Yeah absolutely. But anyway Dexter and GoT share some things in their fuckups that I consider more than coincidental.

Both shows had a central character with somewhat murky origins - Dexter knows he's a foster child but doesn't remember much of anything that happened before the shipping container/Jon "knows" he's a bastard but doesn't know who his mother is or anything about his family beyond "ned stark's bastard"

Both shows had a family member central around the main character who was a love interest of sorts and also died either directly or indirectly because of the MC. Deb was in love with Dexter despite being raised as brother and sister and confessed her love to him, then Dexter's actions indirectly result in her suffering catastrophic injury - to spare her from being in a coma, Dexter kills her and dumps her body. In GoT, Dany is Jon's aunt and is in love with him, though he is a bit more into roll tide than Dexter was since he commits to banging her even after he learns. But in the end, Jon ends up killing Dany and her body is dumped (by a dragon this time).

Both shows had an exceptional first season, compelling enough second season, exciting third season, and extremely good 4th season. Both shows had a 5th season with quality moments but a lot of filler material. They diverge a bit for the 6th and 7th, as GoT had much better penultimate seasons imo than Dexter. But then they come out "strong" with an 8th season that suddenly throws a bunch of new shit at the wall and fucks it all up. With Dexter it was the sudden appearance of Vogel who let him know that he was actually molded to be a serial killer as part of a grander plot and there's a rival super serial killer out there etc. With GoT it was "oh so Dany has gone batshit insane at the drop of a hat and the big bad Night King you've been worrying about for thousands of years can be killed by a 14 year old girl".

And finally, both shows end after the MC kills his aforementioned familial romance and then fucks off. Here is where I literally laugh at it. Both shows feature a main character who, overcome with remorse and emotion, chooses to remove himself from society and move far away from everyone and everything else he knows. Dexter sails into a hurricane and fucks off up to some northern territory logging camp to live out his days in cold solitude. Jon goes back north of the wall to rejoin the Nights Watch and live out his days in cold solitude (well, except for his buds Tormund and Ghost, so +2 advantage to Jon).

Maybe I'm just overthinking but I couldn't help but feel that D&D got so tired of working on GoT and ready for a new project that they thought "whats the biggest fuckup in tv history and how can we outdo it?" and then ended up at a tossup between Dexter and Lost.
 
Dumb and Dumber just had to do Jon dirty like that huh.
They just had to appeal to the "yaaaas qween slay!" plebbit crowd.
The plot armor around Lyanna Mormont was also absolutely fucking unbearable. Throwing zingers around just to one-up those silly men was peak reddit.

And yea, I agree with @Hyrip123876, there hasn't been a single mention of the show anywhere, it's like the show practically vanished from collective memory. Someone had made a "The Goose that Laid the Golden Eggs" analogy earlier - they ripped it to shreds so fucking badly that no one can even be bothered to feign interest for a single feather. HBO of all companies goes as far as to axe prequels knowing full well that they'll be an absolute worthless money pit, just think about it.

It's going to be a case study in "how to fuck up a franchise beyond repair".
 
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She's alright if this was Ck2 she'd be an intrigue 10 vs the Ned 4 and littlefingers and Tyrions 18-21, her big flaw is she cannot calculate differant aghendas to her own because she can't relate to others, has terrible impulse control and her inability to cultivate personal loyalty.

Dany gets a bit of a bum rap, while some of her achievements are dumb luck she does have a clear talent for diplomacy, cultivating personal affection and interest in actually ruling, her flaws are also a lot less severe then cersai while having her capacity to scheme and bullshit. She's not my prefered king (tywin) but she's about as functional as anyone gets.
I don't know, I try to think back on the books and I can't remember one thing she did right. The only "card" Cersei had was her son, and even this she fucked up royally incestuously, causing a massive civil war. She only really holds the reigns after her son and father kicks the (golden) bucket, and then she immediately fucks everything up to a massive degree.

Dany has a problem that her actions are universally scorched earth. Her small Duthraki caravan got nearly annihilated, she ruined her relationship with the slaver merchants to get an army, she destroyed another city outright due to ignorance, she let the army get worn down in a random city and cast away her allies for random fuckboys. Not to mention that her endgame is mind boggling, she wants to unleash a massive war to get a country she never seen. At least her brother was insane and had penis envy so it makes sense for him.
 
it also served as a subtle commentry about the importance of adminstrating and diplomancy, Cersai implodes because she isnt actually a very good ruler and is only really competant at political skullduggery. It's a nice counterpoint to earlier books where it was spelled out being honerable or a good military commander don't make a good king either.
The show naturally ignored all the bits about actually running a country being it's less imediatly dramatic which is partly why late series Tyrion sucks since he's really good at it in the books.
and
I don't think she was even good at that. Cersai only survived by being protected by more competent men, plus the sheer idiocy of Ned Stark. On her own she is way too impatient and spiteful to actually manipulate and make complex plots.
It's similar for Dany, who only survived this far due to zealous allies and her dragons. She was a terrible ruler that routinely made the worse choices and got protected by plot armor.
and
She's alright if this was Ck2 she'd be an intrigue 10 vs the Ned 4 and littlefingers and Tyrions 18-21, her big flaw is she cannot calculate differant aghendas to her own because she can't relate to others, has terrible impulse control and her inability to cultivate personal loyalty.
The thing with Cersei is, that she's too impatient and does not understand the motivations of others, both of these issues are made worse by the rampant Dunning-Kruger thing she's got going for herself.
She constantly remarks and ponders that she should have been born Tywin's son, just cause she's so fucking SMRT, while she begs some honorable knight to protect her from Bronn by putting a knife in his back... and then she learns that the guy did not, in fact, just shank Bronn in a dark alley like she requested, but rather rode out to him and told him who sent him, why he was sent and that he demands a duel - which Bronn promptly wins, cause he just lances the other guy's horse and then kills him like a bitch. So Cersei's little murderplot failed -and- she got caught in the process by her target.

She also puts way too much trust into her vagina, like, literally. She thinks, the moment she rolls up her skirt and drops her knickers, whoever is allowed to mount her will become her willing tool for all eternity. The thing is: It seems to work on Jaime, but again: Cersei really sucks at identifying other's motivations or feelings, mostly cause she just transposes her own views on them. She's eager to switch out Jaime for any other useful fool with a dick, whereas Jaime is really dedicated and faithful towards Cersei.
So she whores herself out to Lancel, who sells her out to Tyrion the moment he gets threatened with being ratted out to Joffrey.
And she whores herself out to one of the Kettleblacks (or more? Forgot), who promptly sell her out to Bronn the moment he threatens them. Funny thing about that, she actually thinks that the Kettleblacks are amazing fighters, just cause they look fierce, whereas Bronn remarks on how they are just show-offs who will falter at the smallest threat. Cersei doesn't even stop and think about the obvious: Jaime has never slept with another woman, whereas she's just yet another piece of ass for whichever Kettleblack stuck his dick in her.
Her wondercrotch worked on Jaime (well, not for the reasons Cersei thought), she can't fathom it not working on someone else.
And just to add insult to injury: There's that one female courtier that seduces Cersei to gain her trust - with great success. Cersei never even contemplates whether or not that woman might have any motive for doing her, she's just caught up in lust and severely underestimates the other person. Cersei must have been every spymaster's favorite ruler, she was so easy to read, so easy to manipulate and so easy to outmaneuver. You might as well assume that some would work behind the curtains to protect Cersei from being taken down, just cause she's so handy. Much like that story about the Brits stopping their plans to assassinate Hitler during WW2, cause they figured he'd do more damage to the German war efforts while still alive.

She's capable of pulling off short-term ploys and conspiracies, but she lacks perspective to think ahead more than just the very immediate future.
Giving that bum-priest the powers he requested was a great short-term success to solve some pressing problems, but since he was a filthy bum with pious words on his lips, she never even assumed that he might take advantage of her, after all, she's a super smart schemer, Tywin's trueborn son in a woman's body, smart and beautiful and he's just a smelly old bum. Anyone with half a brain realized that this was going to backfire horribly, after all, the setting of GoT has a giant clusterfuck of a holy war to get rid of the very thing Cersei allowed to emerge with that bum-pope.
Man, I've stopped caring for this stuff so much, can't even be bothered to look up his name... Sparrow? Was that the name they used?

None of this really matters now. The IP's financial viability is dead thanks to that ending and as you say, the WW got BTFO'd so hard that they weren't even the main villains in Season 8, they got swept aside in 2 episodes. You can't really build stakes around their original rise when they've been overshadowed by the famously incompetent Cersei Lannister.
Just .... man. Just think about it. For eight. Thousand. Years. people told each other stories, hunched over, huddled together, with hushed voices, peeking into the shadows out of fear, about the White Walkers. The enemy of every living thing. The great Evil that will descent down from the North one day, wash over the lands and kill every living thing, cover everything with ice, turn every person and animal into its servants, every plant to ice, every lake will be frozen, mountains themselves will be cracking like glass under the intense coldness and no one and no thing will escape... and it might happen right now as we speak.

And they get outdone by a women in her forties, standing on a balcony, sipping wine and sometimes sharing her bed with some random nobody that she hopes to manipulate into doing her bidding.
Warm orifice > ancient unholy COTF magic to bind winter into human shape and giving him the power to raise and control the dead, huh.

I think it has, but it's different when it happened to Game of Thrones.

In the old days of TV, the Star Treks and the like, shows were made explicitly so that every episode and later on every season was self-contained, while also advancing for the more dedicated viewers. This was the case with children's cartoons when I was growing up. You could watch any Spider-Man episode regardless if you watched it last week and still enjoy it. Thus, even if a show went down the crapper, you could still enjoy several seasons of it. Best example is the Simpsons who, most people will say you should stop watching after season 10, but you should still watch seasons 2 - 7 despite how bad it currently is.

How do you do that with GoT, though? Can you just say "Well, you can stop after season 4 since it goes south after that"?" No, because after the Sopranos hit it big, sequential storytelling for TV shows has become the norm, even for old IPs like Star Trek. If the conclusion is going to be crap, why even care about the earlier seasons? THe only reason to do it is to later on pick up the book series that GRRM frankly doesn't give a shit about anymore.
S8E3 made me so mad, I ditched the show right then and there... and what you just wrote is what went through my head as well. The ending was so fucked up, I can't even take comfort in watching the old amazing things, cause I know it will all be pointless, stupid or tainted in the end. Months went by and I put it to the test, watched some iconic scenes and where they used to entertain me, I was now just sad, knowing how it would all play out in the end. It's surreal, how much the end fucked up even the parts that are genuinely well-done in the show. There's a few scenes in the show that are even better than the book (few though)... and even those I can't enjoy. The books will be the same deal, once George Martin keels over and we're left with either an incomplete bookseries or some terrible mess of a resolution, cobbled together by cheap writers based on notes scribbled down in crayon by Martin before his death.

Test it yourself.
Watch this clip, a clip that most fans remember watching fondly when it first aired. The atmosphere, the dialogue, the acting, the camerawork, the music, everything is perfect... but watch it and tell me one thing:
What does it make you feel now?

I knew that there were already a lot of changes that happened or events that happen in the book and weren't even feasible in the show such as the Lady Stoneheart arc. But it all just went completely to shit, it seems. They fucked Stannis over so hard, they ruined any good qualities Daenerys had, they ruined the suspense and dread of the Night King and the white walkers. The last season gets the brunt of the disdain but tbh the show started going downhill before that, it was just an acceptable amount rather than "why did I just waste my time watching this".
For a very long time, people accepted the heavy downgrades in storytelling, cause it was still ongoing, there was still potential and still there were glimpses of neat stuff. For what it's worth, I think some of the stuff in S8E2 was great. A sombre episode about people facing a terrible battle with even worse odds, looking for some companionship in the night before the slaughter starts... that was (Maisie Williams sideboob and awkward sex scene aside) one of my favorite episodes... but with episode 3, a lot of shit was undone in such an unsatisfactory manner, that pissed me off so much, I couldn't bear watching any further... and then I heard it got even worse.
Arya uses some Naruto-level weeb-leap, that makes the worst of shonen animu look tame in comparison, swats the Night King down like a fly. Teleporting fleets and magic ballistas, forgetful queens that go crazy when hearing bells, it just goes on and on. So much character developement ruined, retconned and reset. I can't fathom how anyone would greenlight -let alone come up with- this shit.

I know ever since the writers' strike in Hollywood, productions have been a race to the bottom to find the cheapest writers, but man. If this isn't a wake-up-call to start looking for actual quality, I don't know what is... well maybe Star Wars. Disney managed to kill a franchise that would have generated billions of revenue, even if it was just Mark Hamill in his Luke-costume, reading aloud for an hour and a half the phone book of Farmington, Missouri.
The plot armor around Lyanna Mormont was also absolutely fucking unbearable. Throwing zingers around just to one-up those silly men was peak reddit.
I really liked her character, cause damn it, she does have a few nice moments early on, but at some point, you just couldn't overlook that she was the writer's pet and oneliner-dispenser with a full suit of plot-armor, it became so fucking annoying.

What made ASOIAF (and early GoT) so great, was that it had a very gritty atmosphere, where anyone could die for making a mistake. Characters would get punished for behaviour that in other stories would reward them. It was very firmly based on logic and it surprised the audience with some of these things.
Ned wants to warn Cersei, so she can get away without being killed by Rob in a rage when he learns about "his" children - and he gets both Rob and himself killed.
Dany rescues a slave from being raped by her husbands warriors and when she offers to heal Drogo, she trusts her, thinking it would be a quid quo pro - and then it turns out that the slave woman despises Dany and remarks on how naive she is to think the guys that Dany stopped to be the first ones to rape her that day.
Just to name two from early on. No one was safe. Actions had very logical, very brutal consequences. The authors didn't seem to protect their favorite characters.

The writers of the show very quickly established that some characters are immune, though, and that is exactly what GoT should not have been. They used all the cheap tropes, like shock deaths (Stannis' daughter comes to mind), and all that shit that ASOIAF actively tries to avoid. They kept many characters around for being fan favorites, but they gave them nothing to do - Tyrion is the best example.
 
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S8E3 made me so mad, I ditched the show right then and there... and what you just wrote is what went through my head as well. The ending was so fucked up, I can't even take comfort in watching the old amazing things, cause I know it will all be pointless, stupid or tainted in the end. Months went by and I put it to the test, watched some iconic scenes and where they used to entertain me, I was now just sad, knowing how it would all play out in the end. It's surreal, how much the end fucked up even the parts that are genuinely well-done in the show. There's a few scenes in the show that are even better than the book (few though)... and even those I can't enjoy. The books will be the same deal, once George Martin keels over and we're left with either an incomplete bookseries or some terrible mess of a resolution, cobbled together by cheap writers based on notes scribbled down in crayon by Martin before his death.

Test it yourself.
Watch this clip, a clip that most fans remember watching fondly when it first aired. The atmosphere, the dialogue, the acting, the camerawork, the music, everything is perfect... but watch it and tell me one thing:
What does it make you feel now?
Absolutely meaningless after what came later.


This means "yea no I was merely pretending back then lol", but not only that, it's so pants-on-head tarded and illogical that you can't help but scream at the screen "so what the fucking fuck was that all about in season 3?"

It insults the viewer's intelligence as well as demeans and ruins whatever defining traits or character arc was outlined earlier.

Watching these scenes is like poking an old wound, geez.

My only consolation is that Tywin's character basically signaled the beginning of the end of the show, up until his death the show was definitely worth watching. Rewatching his scenes reminds me that he was the best GoT character.




Charles Dance NAILED Tywin.
 
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For a very long time, people accepted the heavy downgrades in storytelling, cause it was still ongoing, there was still potential and still there were glimpses of neat stuff. For what it's worth, I think some of the stuff in S8E2 was great. A sombre episode about people facing a terrible battle with even worse odds, looking for some companionship in the night before the slaughter starts... that was (Maisie Williams sideboob and awkward sex scene aside) one of my favorite episodes... but with episode 3, a lot of shit was undone in such an unsatisfactory manner, that pissed me off so much, I couldn't bear watching any further... and then I heard it got even worse.
Arya uses some Naruto-level weeb-leap, that makes the worst of shonen animu look tame in comparison, swats the Night King down like a fly. Teleporting fleets and magic ballistas, forgetful queens that go crazy when hearing bells, it just goes on and on. So much character developement ruined, retconned and reset. I can't fathom how anyone would greenlight -let alone come up with- this shit.

Yeah there were some good parts to S8 don't get me wrong. I enjoyed E2 for the same reason you described, it was good as far as a "filler" episode goes. And tbh I even enjoyed some of the destruction scenes from Kings Landing. It's just how they got there, and the deeper fuckups they made, that really irk me.
I feel like they fell for the "subvert expectations" meme full tilt and D&D wanted to just hurry up and move on to Space Wizards or fucking up Westworld and so they rushed everything.

My problem with the battle at winterfell absolutely stands. They built the White Walkers up over 8 seasons into a terrifying, nigh unstoppable force. The Night King was one of the biggest villains of TV yet we knew hardly anything about him until late in season 6. The army of the dead, along with the magical ice monster that can conveniently raise the dead, just invaded a country torn apart by civil war and ripe with corpses and land. But no, let's fuck everything up, and make CERSEI FUCKING LANNISTER more competent than the ice monsters who had nearly destroyed the entire world before. When your big bad is outdone by an alcoholic brother fucker you may have jumped the shark a bit too far. I will say that the scene at the beginning of the episode with the Dothraki was well done even though it was too dark - watching all those troops ride out and then every one of the torches fades to black in the background was chilling and accomplished its purpose. The charge of the dead served its purpose. As for the deaths? Out of all of them I'd say Jorah is the only one who had a fitting end because he was able to go out like he wanted and had worked for, defending Dany. Beric maybe. But Edd was a pointless death. And it straight up felt like they were simultaneously punishing Lyanna Mormont and the audience that hates her with her death because it was so brutal and so cringe on opposite ends of the spectrum. The worst though was obviously the Night King. So you have a magical ice demon who is thousands of years old, impervious to dragon flame, and can kill a normal human with the flick of a finger...and this villain is killed by a 14 year old screeching child who just so happened to inherit the Plot Device Dagger a few episodes ago? Why did the Night King even bother with Winterfell? Seriously? It would have been significantly better if they'd have had Cersei double cross the north like everyone knew she would, then have the NK be the final boss. It would have been more predictable but sometimes predictability is good. Imagine a finale season where we get to see the Lannisters finally try to march North only to lose, but maybe they inflict some losses that raise the stakes for the final battle. All the while the NK does what he's been doing all along, letting the humans kill each other off while he adds to his army. Imagine the suspense of shots where random ravens arrive from faraway lands and offer chilling reports of entire holdfasts being emptied. Imagine how much more fulfilling it would have been to have the Big Bad actually be the real Big Bad.

Then they rushed the thing with Daenerys so much too. I could see hints starting in the Meereen story arc that Dany would become Mad Queen and I never bought into her sanctimonious "i only want to help everyone" lines as being sincere. I feel like a lot of people expected her to snap at some point. But why rush it to quite the extent they do? They literally go from her being the savior of the continent to being better at genocide than the ice demons within the span of 1 full episode - she is being celebrated at Winterfell following the battle, there's some plot filler with Jaime while they fuck up his character, and then they're up north and Dany goes batshit after Missandei gets beheaded. And there's just no real explanation why... we just hear bells and are left to think Dany has some deep seated bell-related PTSD that Missandei's death somehow triggered? idk. But it's just so stupidly done and ignorantly rushed on their part.

And finally, why did they ruin all the progress that Jaime made? His redemption arc wasn't especially unique - gifted but corrupt/selfish swordsman suffering hardship until he sympathizes with the good guys is a fairly common trope. But it was quality. It was well executed. It had all the right elements in all the right places. And it would have been a rewarding end for a character who, at least in the show, is easily one of the top 5 most interesting characters involved. I would have even understood it more if they had straight up killed him off during the battle at Winterfell or some shit. But to have him make as much growth and development as he did, only to completely backpedal because his sister apparently has the best pussy in the world? Bull. Shit.

Charles Dance NAILED Tywin.
Without a doubt, one of my favorite lines in all of television is when Tywin is lecturing Cersei and she bugs him until he finally shuts her up and says "listen I don't distrust you because you're a woman, I distrust you because you're not as smart as you think you are."
 
Absolutely meaningless after what came after.
...
Watching these scenes is like poking an old wound, geez.
ikr

It's a really great example to show, how deep the dagger was thrust in all our backs. It pierced our hearts and destroyed our love, not just for GoT in general, but even for the things that were good about GoT in the past. They managed to fuck up so much, even the scene of Jaime in the bath with Brienne has become just a sore memory of what should have been.

My only consolation is that Tywin's character basically signaled the beginning of the end of the show, up until his death the show was definitely worth watching. Rewatching his scenes reminds me that he was the best GoT character.
It's strange, really. The very moment before Tywin was killed, we have a major deviation from the books that send us down the wrong path: Tysha is dropped from the plot.
The crazy thing is, when I watched the show for the first time, I was absolutely sure that I just must have zoned out for a moment and thus missed Jaime telling Tyrion about Tysha, cause I could not fathom the show -not- including that major aspect of Tyrion's character... I just don't get it, all it would have cost them to go down the route of the books would have been a few lines of dialogue and yet they went out of their way to still fuck it up for no good reason. It fucks up so much the relationship between Jaime and Tyrion -not- to include that scene, I don't get it.

Anyway, wanna hear my half-baked theory regarding the names of Tywin and Tyrion?

When Tywin was still young, his father was soft and got taken advantage of. The Lannister family almost lost their power and it was thanks to Tywin's efforts to protect the family and to make them one of the most powerful on the continent.
Tyrion, however, undid much of this, sometimes deliberately sometimes not, and by shooting Tywin, he sealed the fate of his family, cause that propelled his sister into a position of power that she used very unwisely.
So we have Tywin on one hand, literally someone who "won" something for the family, and on the other Tyrion (rion, kinda sounding like a bastardized version or ruin), who ruined the Lannisters.
Yeah I know it's silly.
 
ikr

It's a really great example to show, how deep the dagger was thrust in all our backs. It pierced our hearts and destroyed our love, not just for GoT in general, but even for the things that were good about GoT in the past. They managed to fuck up so much, even the scene of Jaime in the bath with Brienne has become just a sore memory of what should have been.


It's strange, really. The very moment before Tywin was killed, we have a major deviation from the books that send us down the wrong path: Tysha is dropped from the plot.
The crazy thing is, when I watched the show for the first time, I was absolutely sure that I just must have zoned out for a moment and thus missed Jaime telling Tyrion about Tysha, cause I could not fathom the show -not- including that major aspect of Tyrion's character... I just don't get it, all it would have cost them to go down the route of the books would have been a few lines of dialogue and yet they went out of their way to still fuck it up for no good reason. It fucks up so much the relationship between Jaime and Tyrion -not- to include that scene, I don't get it.

Anyway, wanna hear my half-baked theory regarding the names of Tywin and Tyrion?

When Tywin was still young, his father was soft and got taken advantage of. The Lannister family almost lost their power and it was thanks to Tywin's efforts to protect the family and to make them one of the most powerful on the continent.
Tyrion, however, undid much of this, sometimes deliberately sometimes not, and by shooting Tywin, he sealed the fate of his family, cause that propelled his sister into a position of power that she used very unwisely.
So we have Tywin on one hand, literally someone who "won" something for the family, and on the other Tyrion (rion, kinda sounding like a bastardized version or ruin), who ruined the Lannisters.
Yeah I know it's silly.
It's bullshit but I'll believe it. If Tywin's power moves came to fruition, he would have ended up having grandsons in every corner of Westeros, his family would have been the most powerful of them all. Unfortunately he just was too focused on that, treating his family as pawns and not as their own children, not very fatherly of him -- which was his flaw, and that's fine. Every character was supposed to be flawed somehow.

Gods, the dialogue was strong then!
 
Frankly I don't think even the books, if they ever come out, will offer a good resolution. Maybe better than the show, but better is not often synonym of excellence.

If you're writing a book series desperate to own up to Tolkien, claiming how you're too hardcore to like stories of elves and how "unrealistic" they are, then why end with the most unrealistic ending of them all, with a crippled child as king? Bran's story is the most far-removed from politics of all the central characters and we're supposed to "believe" that a child that cannot have heirs and knows zilch about politics is the "best ruler"? And somehow this is better than Tolkien because...?

And that's not even going into the Others, lmao. Five books in and we still don't know a thing about them, and he insists all will be wrapped up nicely in two more books. Along with all the other padded crap he added in the later two books. He should just admit the story got too big for him, and give up.

The only joy I can get of this series overall crashing is that this will finally kill the "deconstruction/subversion is deep" narrative obsession Hollywood has and go back to engaging, earnest storylines.
 
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My problem with the battle at winterfell absolutely stands. They built the White Walkers up over 8 seasons into a terrifying, nigh unstoppable force. The Night King was one of the biggest villains of TV yet we knew hardly anything about him until late in season 6. The army of the dead, along with the magical ice monster that can conveniently raise the dead, just invaded a country torn apart by civil war and ripe with corpses and land. But no, let's fuck everything up, and make CERSEI FUCKING LANNISTER more competent than the ice monsters who had nearly destroyed the entire world before. When your big bad is outdone by an alcoholic brother fucker you may have jumped the shark a bit too far.
Absolutely, Cersei stands there on her balcony, sips wine and goes "Eeeeh... why worry about an Army of Undead in the North, we're in the South!" - and she's a hundred percent right. Words can't describe how much of a letdown that is. Call me naive, but before the start of Episode 3, I was still expecting Winterfell to be a loss for the good guys, who will have to fall back south. I somehow still expected the big showdown to happen between the living and the dead -after- Cersei is taken care of and all armies of Westeros are united. But nope.
I've said it before: Once the fight over life and death is over, the question of who's gonna sit on the rusty chair becomes entirely irrelevant.
Once the NK has been killed, it doesn't matter if Cersei is Queen or Dany... or Patchface. A generation later, we get someone else and whether that person is good or bad is a gamble, no matter who sat there before.

On a sidenote: NK can raise corpses in the Stark crypt that have been lying there for CENTURIES. Not just the recently deceased, but bodies of people who have been long dead even before the Targaryens came to Westeros. Any cemetary would boost that guys army by hundreds.
And the guy doesn't hold up a candle to everyone's most favorite winemom and her cunning cunny. fml, someone allowed this to happen.

Edit: With Cersei blowing up the Sept of Baelor and a huge chunk of the city alongside with it, by all rights, she should have been strangled in her sleep by some random maid tasked with emptying chamber pots./edit.
I will say that the scene at the beginning of the episode with the Dothraki was well done even though it was too dark - watching all those troops ride out and then every one of the torches fades to black in the background was chilling and accomplished its purpose.

Imagine you're the studio big-wig who greenlit the budget for S8E3. So, you shell out literally millions of dollars for CGI skellingtons assaulting a fuckhuge CGI castle, CGI dragons, god kows how many manhours went into that CGI work alone, then add the makeup for the Zombies fighting with actors within the castle, post production for that, sets props, reshoots, the works...
... and then it is so dark and dimly lit, you can barely even see what's going on.
It boggles the mind. That charge looked fucking rad with those burning swords... but fuck. Don't get me started on that battle formation and how they waste their light cavallry for a frontal assault and everything else wrong with the troop placement. When I watched that episode with a few bros for the first (and last) time, I went "This troop deployment could only be made worse if they send all their Dothraki into the catacombs" and I stand by that statement.
But Edd was a pointless death. And it straight up felt like they were simultaneously punishing Lyanna Mormont and the audience that hates her with her death because it was so brutal and so cringe on opposite ends of the spectrum.
Not pointless, tbh. Shock Deaths. Something to make the audience go "Nooooooooooooooo! How SAD!" and that's it. They didn't have the balls to have a main character get killed, but they hoped no one would notice if they have enough scenes of main characters getting swarmed and swamped by dozens of Undead with a fade to black. How many times do we see Brienne get grabbed by a shitton of Zombies and dragged to the ground? 3 times? 4?
I bet they filmed a bunch of those scenes and the actors expected the producers to use whatever shot looked best to have one such scene and Dumb and Dumber just went "Durr, let's use them all!"
The worst though was obviously the Night King. So you have a magical ice demon who is thousands of years old, impervious to dragon flame, and can kill a normal human with the flick of a finger...and this villain is killed by a 14 year old screeching child who just so happened to inherit the Plot Device Dagger a few episodes ago? Why did the Night King even bother with Winterfell? Seriously?
Azor Ahai had to cleave his lover through the heart to make a sword capable of killing the BBEG in his legend.
Arya can just use a butterknife that King Bob had lying around, that he didn't even realize was missing when it was stolen in S1.
Why did the Night King even bother with Winterfell? Seriously? It would have been significantly better if they'd have had Cersei double cross the north like everyone knew she would, then have the NK be the final boss. It would have been more predictable but sometimes predictability is good. Imagine a finale season where we get to see the Lannisters finally try to march North only to lose, but maybe they inflict some losses that raise the stakes for the final battle. All the while the NK does what he's been doing all along, letting the humans kill each other off while he adds to his army. Imagine the suspense of shots where random ravens arrive from faraway lands and offer chilling reports of entire holdfasts being emptied. Imagine how much more fulfilling it would have been to have the Big Bad actually be the real Big Bad.
Would have been better if the NK had just sealed up the Protags, leaving behind one of his "generals" with a chunk of his army and continued onwards, slaughtering every village and slowly progressing towards the south.
Could have been a springboard for the protags later on escaping their slowly freezing prison and allowing them to attack the NK's army from the rear.

Basic plot outline: NK travels south, garbled reports, written in craggly hand make it to King's Landing via raven, people frantically beg for help as the Undead tear through villages, castles and cities. Cersei goes "eh... they'll never get past Moat Cailyn, no one has ever gone past! Anyway, sounds like a problem of the North to deal with, I'll pull together my troops in King's Landing just to be sure." NK, however, manages to get past Moat Cailyn (maybe by freezing the water surrounding it). His main host travels south, while more and more of his "generals" fan out east and west, to conquer everything to the sides while the NK heads straight South (might be worth it to give him a motivation to do so, maybe there's a relic in Oldtown or King's Landing that he wants, I dunno, this would have to be established much earlier though). Cersei realizes that the troops that she stationed in KL have left, cause -surprise!- they don't want their homes to be run over by crazy skeletons, so they piss off to defend their own homes, KL, being pitifully devoid of manpower, wakes up one day to see the NK army on the horizon and they have to prepare for a final desperate battle. Meanwhile, the protags in Winterfell manage to break through, they manage to follow the NK and since his army has fanned out, they basically gallop down a massive wake of frozen fields that are free of enemies. In the end, the NK sieges King's Landing and the Winterfell-Party arrives with a gathered host of survivors from different castles (some of which originally were stationed in KL) and they manage to put the NK into a Hammer and Anvil situation, where he gets killed by Tyrion.

Not that this is a very good outline, but it would have been a lot more interesting to watch than what we go, especially when it is propperly fleshed out.

Then they rushed the thing with Daenerys so much too. I could see hints starting in the Meereen story arc that Dany would become Mad Queen and I never bought into her sanctimonious "i only want to help everyone" lines as being sincere. I feel like a lot of people expected her to snap at some point.
Yeah, back when she had her dragon eat the Tarlys, I was still under the impression the show wanted us to sell her on the idea of her being a good and just queen... only I watched her kill a shitton of people in the most cruel way for being honorable and loyal. It did make me think that she was no better than Aerys - well, turnes out I was right about that.
And finally, why did they ruin all the progress that Jaime made? His redemption arc wasn't especially unique - gifted but corrupt/selfish swordsman suffering hardship until he sympathizes with the good guys is a fairly common trope. But it was quality. It was well executed. It had all the right elements in all the right places. And it would have been a rewarding end for a character who, at least in the show, is easily one of the top 5 most interesting characters involved.
Jaime is one of my most beloved characters. Dude had a shitty life and it went worse.

Promising tourney knight, manages to earn his spurs in a little kerfuffle against some raiders, King Aerys promotes him to the King's Guard - but not to honor his achievements in battle, but to fuck over his dad Tywin by meddling with the family descendency. Aerys must have been some Sheev Palpatine level of troll, giggling to himself as he imagines how that little move practically forces Tywin into declaring Tyrion to be his heir.
So Jaime now is stuck in the King's Guard (which he actually enjoys) but sooner or later, it must have dawned on him that the King is completely fucking insane, which culminated in Aerys ordering the city burned by his pyromancer and ordering Jaime to kill his own father (undoubtedly again a fine example of his special sense of humor). So Jaime can follow his oath to protect and obey the king and thus watch a city burn or ... well... or he follows the knightly ideal to protect the innocent and the defenseless. He chose to protect the poor people of King's Landing, has the great misfortune of being caught red handed and his reputation is done for. For a time, he carries the title of Kingslayer and Oathbreaker like a mantle, pretending not to care what people think, but deep down being hurt by it all...

But nope. He never cared about the people, innocent or otherwise. Okay. Man, am I ever glad there was this super exiting twist to put Jaime on square one, otherwise I might have had to deal with something like character growth or someone overcoming his demons.
There's that 4chan greentext screencap where someone made a short outline of Jaime defeating the Nightking and it's so fucking good. Not like I think he should have dealt the killing blow, but that bait and switch might at least have been worth it, if the story had been set up in a way to line up a bit more closely with the Azor Ahai prophecy.

I used to love his arc. Used to.

Funny thing, really. Saw people comment that Jaime prevented King's Landing from being burned to save his own skin and that's the reason why he killed Aerys. To think that people can be this fucking stupid. fml.
with a crippled child as king
Afaik, that wasn't Martin's idea, was it?
And that's not even going into the Others, lmao. Five books in and we still don't know a thing about them, and he insists all will be wrapped up nicely in two more books.
Eh, kinda have to disagree. I actually kind of like the explanation of the show (and expect the books to give us something similar, if they ever come out).
And more really isn't needed. The COTF were pushed to extinction by the First Men, so they decided to do something rash that backfired. It can definetly need some polish and explain a bit more what they were expecting or set up how they could do such a blunder, but overall, that is absolutely sufficient.
Frankly, I could do entirely without an explanation of where the NK came from, sometimes, the mystery is more interesting than an explanation.
 
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Absolutely, Cersei stands there on her balcony, sips wine and goes "Eeeeh... why worry about an Army of Undead in the North, we're in the South!" - and she's a hundred percent right. Words can't describe how much of a letdown that is. Call me naive, but before the start of Episode 3, I was still expecting Winterfell to be a loss for the good guys, who will have to fall back south. I somehow still expected the big showdown to happen between the living and the dead -after- Cersei is taken care of and all armies of Westeros are united. But nope.
I've said it before: Once the fight over life and death is over, the question of who's gonna sit on the rusty chair becomes entirely irrelevant.
Once the NK has been killed, it doesn't matter if Cersei is Queen or Dany... or Patchface. A generation later, we get someone else and whether that person is good or bad is a gamble, no matter who sat there before.
I agree with you over the irrelevancy of whoever sits on the rusty chair but tbh it seems like they were intentionally rubbing that in when they made the emo paraplegic the king of the seven kingdoms when most of the people present at that meeting had literally only met him for the first time that same day.

On a sidenote: NK can raise corpses in the Stark crypt that have been lying there for CENTURIES. Not just the recently deceased, but bodies of people who have been long dead even before the Targaryens came to Westeros. Any cemetary would boost that guys army by hundreds.
And the guy doesn't hold up a candle to everyone's most favorite winemom and her cunning cunny. fml, someone allowed this to happen.

Edit: With Cersei blowing up the Sept of Baelor and a huge chunk of the city alongside with it, by all rights, she should have been strangled in her sleep by some random maid tasked with emptying chamber pots./edit.
Even on top of that, think of the hundreds of thousands of corpses from the recent civil war that are either out in the open or barely buried throughout the continent. Sure, the North tends to bury their dead anyway, but what about the rest of the land? What about all the little villages or random fields in the middle of the continent that were littered with thousands of dead soldiers in repeated battles? You'd think they'd look at that gold mine and say "we can make the NK the strongest villain these people have ever conceived of". Just lazy fucking writing imo.
Imagine you're the studio big-wig who greenlit the budget for S8E3. So, you shell out literally millions of dollars for CGI skellingtons assaulting a fuckhuge CGI castle, CGI dragons, god kows how many manhours went into that CGI work alone, then add the makeup for the Zombies fighting with actors within the castle, post production for that, sets props, reshoots, the works...
... and then it is so dark and dimly lit, you can barely even see what's going on.
It boggles the mind. That charge looked fucking rad with those burning swords... but fuck. Don't get me started on that battle formation and how they waste their light cavallry for a frontal assault and everything else wrong with the troop placement. When I watched that episode with a few bros for the first (and last) time, I went "This troop deployment could only be made worse if they send all their Dothraki into the catacombs" and I stand by that statement.
I was thinking this too. In the books the Unsullied are world renowned and known to be pretty much the only infantry that the Dothraki will respect, due to an incident where a legion of Unsullied held a city against repeated Dothraki charges that would have wiped out any other infantry. Then you have an entire company of mercenaries, thousands of wildlings, thousands of northmen, and any Lannister/Tarly troops that remained after the wagon train incident and had sworn loyalty to Dany. Two full grown dragons that may not be able to kill the NK with fire but could surely take out a few thousand of the wights who can be killed with a well aimed candle lantern. And then tens of thousands of mounted Dothraki who are remarked to be excellent ranged weapon cavalry too. I could have devised a better battle strategy than what they went with on fucking Medieval II Total War.
Not pointless, tbh. Shock Deaths. Something to make the audience go "Nooooooooooooooo! How SAD!" and that's it. They didn't have the balls to have a main character get killed, but they hoped no one would notice if they have enough scenes of main characters getting swarmed and swamped by dozens of Undead with a fade to black. How many times do we see Brienne get grabbed by a shitton of Zombies and dragged to the ground? 3 times? 4?
I bet they filmed a bunch of those scenes and the actors expected the producers to use whatever shot looked best to have one such scene and Dumb and Dumber just went "Durr, let's use them all!"
I can't help but feel like they did even worse than TWD on that front.
Azor Ahai had to cleave his lover through the heart to make a sword capable of killing the BBEG in his legend.
Arya can just use a butterknife that King Bob had lying around, that he didn't even realize was missing when it was stolen in S1.
When they laid the groundwork for Valyrian steel being effective against white walkers and then made the reveal that there was a shitload of obsidian underneath Dragonstone I was really hoping they'd at least have some moment where they explained more about Valyrian steel and maybe figured out it was steel that was forged with obsidian or something but NOPE they just stick with the same 4-5 valyrian weapons they have and sharpen obsidian planks to use as weapons.
Would have been better if the NK had just sealed up the Protags, leaving behind one of his "generals" with a chunk of his army and continued onwards, slaughtering every village and slowly progressing towards the south.
Could have been a springboard for the protags later on escaping their slowly freezing prison and allowing them to attack the NK's army from the rear.

Basic plot outline: NK travels south, garbled reports, written in craggly hand make it to King's Landing via raven, people frantically beg for help as the Undead tear through villages, castles and cities. Cersei goes "eh... they'll never get past Moat Cailyn, no one has ever gone past! Anyway, sounds like a problem of the North to deal with, I'll pull together my troops in King's Landing just to be sure." NK, however, manages to get past Moat Cailyn (maybe by freezing the water surrounding it). His main host travels south, while more and more of his "generals" fan out east and west, to conquer everything to the sides while the NK heads straight South (might be worth it to give him a motivation to do so, maybe there's a relic in Oldtown or King's Landing that he wants, I dunno, this would have to be established much earlier though). Cersei realizes that the troops that she stationed in KL have left, cause -surprise!- they don't want their homes to be run over by crazy skeletons, so they piss off to defend their own homes, KL, being pitifully devoid of manpower, wakes up one day to see the NK army on the horizon and they have to prepare for a final desperate battle. Meanwhile, the protags in Winterfell manage to break through, they manage to follow the NK and since his army has fanned out, they basically gallop down a massive wake of frozen fields that are free of enemies. In the end, the NK sieges King's Landing and the Winterfell-Party arrives with a gathered host of survivors from different castles (some of which originally were stationed in KL) and they manage to put the NK into a Hammer and Anvil situation, where he gets killed by Tyrion.

Not that this is a very good outline, but it would have been a lot more interesting to watch than what we go, especially when it is propperly fleshed out.
A showdown between NK and the living within the gates of KL would have been a great sight to see. Maybe even make it an actual siege instead of what we got, which was basically a mad chick on a dragon torching the entire city, most of which was packed with helpless people.
Jaime is one of my most beloved characters. Dude had a shitty life and it went worse.

Promising tourney knight, manages to earn his spurs in a little kerfuffle against some raiders, King Aerys promotes him to the King's Guard - but not to honor his achievements in battle, but to fuck over his dad Tywin by meddling with the family descendency. Aerys must have been some Sheev Palpatine level of troll, giggling to himself as he imagines how that little move practically forces Tywin into declaring Tyrion to be his heir.
So Jaime now is stuck in the King's Guard (which he actually enjoys) but sooner or later, it must have dawned on him that the King is completely fucking insane, which culminated in Aerys ordering the city burned by his pyromancer and ordering Jaime to kill his own father (undoubtedly again a fine example of his special sense of humor). So Jaime can follow his oath to protect and obey the king and thus watch a city burn or ... well... or he follows the knightly ideal to protect the innocent and the defenseless. He chose to protect the poor people of King's Landing, has the great misfortune of being caught red handed and his reputation is done for. For a time, he carries the title of Kingslayer and Oathbreaker like a mantle, pretending not to care what people think, but deep down being hurt by it all...

But nope. He never cared about the people, innocent or otherwise. Okay. Man, am I ever glad there was this super exiting twist to put Jaime on square one, otherwise I might have had to deal with something like character growth or someone overcoming his demons.
There's that 4chan greentext screencap where someone made a short outline of Jaime defeating the Nightking and it's so fucking good. Not like I think he should have dealt the killing blow, but that bait and switch might at least have been worth it, if the story had been set up in a way to line up a bit more closely with the Azor Ahai prophecy.

I used to love his arc. Used to.

Funny thing, really. Saw people comment that Jaime prevented King's Landing from being burned to save his own skin and that's the reason why he killed Aerys. To think that people can be this fucking stupid. fml.
And then to add insult to all of that injury, they have him get mortally wounded by Euron fucking Greyjoy. Now don't get me wrong, if this was book Euron we were talking about, I could kinda see it. Book Euron is terrifying and vaguely mysterious enough that you could kinda see it as a good fight for Jaime, a worthy enemy. Show Euron looks like he just got off a coke binge at a 90s grunge themed BDSM club. He's so ridiculously far from his book character that I could write an entire other piece just on how shitty they did Euron's character, but it really does irk me that of all the people to get a good stab in against Jaime Lannister, it was him.


Also I forgot to even get into how let down I was by Cleganebowl. I didn't expect Sandor to survive and I liked the little emotional payoff they included where Arya addresses him by name (one of the only times I recall him actually being called Sandor in the show, usually they just call him the Hound or dog), but after expecting that fight for so long, I felt the trial by combat concept would have been better suited. As it was Sandor died an entirely pointless death because there is no way unGregor would have survived the entire roof of the red keep collapsing on him.
 
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And she whores herself out to one of the Kettleblacks (or more? Forgot),
It's a nice little parallel with Jamie and Tyrion after their last meeting - they both repeat a mantra about their lovers in their head over and over again. Jamie's is "Lancel, the Kettleblacks and Moonboy for all I know...", and Tyrion's is "Where do whores go?".
Cersei goes "eh... they'll never get past Moat Cailyn, no one has ever gone past! Anyway, sounds like a problem of the North to deal with, I'll pull together my troops in King's Landing just to be sure." NK, however, manages to get past Moat Cailyn (maybe by freezing the water surrounding it).
Moat Cailin is only impregnable from the south; in the books like twelve Ironborn hold it for months while Victarion goes to the Kingsmoot, before Ramsey and Reek/Theon show up from the north side and take it easily.

Which just reminds me of another infuriating thing that happened in the later seasons - Brienne and Pod ride north, following Sansa, and they get past possibly the most defensible position in Westeros by just fucking RIDING AROUND it. That's the explanation given. They ride around Moat Cailin.

There's lots of examples of this kind of thing, but in the later seasons the writers did just not give a shit.
 
Frankly I don't think even the books, if they ever come out, will offer a good resolution. Maybe better than the show, but better is not often synonym of excellence.

If you're writing a book series desperate to own up to Tolkien, claiming how you're too hardcore to like stories of elves and how "unrealistic" they are, then why end with the most unrealistic ending of them all, with a crippled child as king? Bran's story is the most far-removed from politics of all the central characters and we're supposed to "believe" that a child that cannot have heirs and knows zilch about politics is the "best ruler"? And somehow this is better than Tolkien because...?
Having access to the weirwoods gives Bran unparalleled access to knowledge, history, and formative events in Westeros. I'm guessing him being in charge is an allusion to the 'knowledge is power' message, or maybe it's wish fulfillment on GRRM's part that the weak nerd lords over all the strong grown men. But Bran at least used to be athletic until he got pushed, whereas GRRM and the majority of nerds never exhibti any affinity for fitness, given the choice.
Anyway, I'm a bit disappointed the show never really decimated the southern kingdoms. The North is the vector by which the Others enter, and it's second only to the Riverlands in how much pillage it endures throughout the series. I was under the impression that GRRM intended each and every kingdom to have their forces thoroughly spent by the time the Others arrived. It would explain the great lengths he went to in Books 4 and 5 to develop plotlines like the Sparrow, Euron's raids, Golden Company, Dorne's armies, and others-- threads that everybody acknowledges are secondary to the main plots but seem almost specifically tailored to create conflict and make The Reach & Dorne & The Stormlands just as bruised as the northern kingdoms had gotten in the first 3 books.
By chopping away at the second act like this (which btw I don't blame them, seeing as not even GRRM himself appears to know what the fuck to do) we have a weird situation where 3 of the 7 kingdoms were largely spared the internicene conflicts. Their leadership was decapitated but other than that this whole saga could've happened without them.
Bran's authority rests upon the endorsement of the Riverlands, Westerlands, and The Vale-- none of whom love Bran for anything Bran personally is responsible for, and all suffered generation-deep losses in the recent wars. The North suffered even worse but isn't even part of the arrangement anymore! Meanwhile Dorne and the Reach have up to 100,000 soldiers to draw upon, were largely unmolested by conflict and have 0 reason to accept Bran's authority whatsoever and don't know/care who he is.
Basically they fucked it by killing Margaery and never even acknowledging Arianne. You can tell GRRM didn't give the ending notes much foresight because if my 'The King is a Nerd Like Me' hypothesis holds firm he would've insisted D&D ended on an Aegon allegory and have Bran marry those two to solidify the union
 
I agree with you over the irrelevancy of whoever sits on the rusty chair but tbh it seems like they were intentionally rubbing that in when they made the emo paraplegic the king of the seven kingdoms when most of the people present at that meeting had literally only met him for the first time that same day.
Quite a feat. The story is resolved in such a way that it really does not matter at all who will sit on the throne after Westeros is spared complete, utter and irreversible destruction... and still, putting Bran there is the worst choice anyone could come up with.
The whole political situation at the end is entirely fairytale land. The North secedes, literal cut-throats and kinslayers sit the Small Council, everything north of Kings Landing is in ruins while the south is greatly untouched by war and still they go along with all this shit and pay taxes to a King, that they never even heard about before he was wheeled into the throne room.

The way how the books handle things like that, you can bet your ass, such a situation would mean every kingdom would go "If the North is allowed to leave, we're gone, too. Try to stop us, we've got an army and you don't even have enough food to last another month." It would be chaos.
The TV show tries to sell us this "And everyone lived happily ever after" shit like the audience had brain damage.
I was thinking this too. In the books the Unsullied are world renowned and known to be pretty much the only infantry that the Dothraki will respect, due to an incident where a legion of Unsullied held a city against repeated Dothraki charges that would have wiped out any other infantry. Then you have an entire company of mercenaries, thousands of wildlings, thousands of northmen, and any Lannister/Tarly troops that remained after the wagon train incident and had sworn loyalty to Dany. Two full grown dragons that may not be able to kill the NK with fire but could surely take out a few thousand of the wights who can be killed with a well aimed candle lantern. And then tens of thousands of mounted Dothraki who are remarked to be excellent ranged weapon cavalry too. I could have devised a better battle strategy than what they went with on fucking Medieval II Total War.
The crowning achievement of their strategists simply has to be the scene where the battle is raging on outside for a good 30 minutes and only then do they send their archers to the walls. What where they doing up till then, have supper and listen to a bedtime story? It's so fucking dumb.

They have Jon Snow, Jorah Mormont, Jaime, Tyrion, Varys, the Hound, Berric and Tormund, to name a few... some of the most reknown fighters or strategists (some are both!) and their set up for the battle is so terrible, you would be hard pressed to make it worse on purpose.

He's so ridiculously far from his book character that I could write an entire other piece just on how shitty they did Euron's character, but it really does irk me that of all the people to get a good stab in against Jaime Lannister, it was him.
Yeah, I am glad I didn't subject myself to watching the last 3 episodes, it was bad enough up to that point.

Also I forgot to even get into how let down I was by Cleganebowl.
They kept Sandor alive just to call people "cunt" and for that last fight with his brother. Haven't even bothered watching that bit on youtube, Sandor smashes his brother through a wall in the Red Keep and they plummet to their death or something... Hard to tell without context, but it seems more like they just put that in to mark off a checkbox.

My best guess for many of these decisions: They didn't know how to handle something, so they copped out by going for whatever ridiculous idea they could come up with, as long as it was something they thought not many would expect.

Having access to the weirwoods gives Bran unparalleled access to knowledge, history, and formative events in Westeros. I'm guessing him being in charge is an allusion to the 'knowledge is power' message, or maybe it's wish fulfillment on GRRM's part that the weak nerd lords over all the strong grown men. But Bran at least used to be athletic until he got pushed, whereas GRRM and the majority of nerds never exhibti any affinity for fitness, given the choice.
Again, I feel like this can't really be blamed on GRRM (unless I am unaware of him admitting that he plans or planned to put Bran on the throne).
I am pretty certain that this was just Dumb&Dumber thinking "So.... who should be King in the end? Dany? Jon Snow? Both? Nah, too obvious. How about we kill of Dany and get rid of Jon... so who does that leave us with? Oh I got it! Bran! No one will expect that, therefore it will be a great twist!!"
It's well established that D&D deviated a lot from GRRM's outlines, so why should this suddenly be closer to his books? I really doubt that GRRM would resolve the White Walker plot before the Iron Throne plot, for instance.

Moat Cailin is only impregnable from the south; in the books like twelve Ironborn hold it for months while Victarion goes to the Kingsmoot, before Ramsey and Reek/Theon show up from the north side and take it easily.
I thought it was easy for them to take the castle, cause Theon essentially allowed them free passage if they surrender, before they were skinned by Madcock McPlotarmor.
But yeah, it's said to be a strong defense against the South in the books iirc, so you could say I kinda forgot about that.
 
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The way how the books handle things like that, you can bet your ass, such a situation would mean every kingdom would go "If the North is allowed to leave, we're gone, too. Try to stop us, we've got an army and you don't even have enough food to last another month." It would be chaos.
I remember watching that big scene with everyone negotiating and was baffled that Asha/Yara and whichever faceless arab they had as the new Prince of Dorne just sat back and said nothing. I mean, it's not like the Ironborn had ever tried to secede before and it's not like Dorne didn't get dragged kicking and screaming into the seven kingdoms in the first place and have wanted to do their own shit for ages. The more you look the more it hurts.
I thought it was easy for them to take the castle, cause Theon essentially allowed them free passage if they surrender, before they were skinned by Madcock McPlotarmor.
That's true, plus their ships were burnt and so they got cut off from any resupply. It's certainly not an easy job from the north side, but Victarion did take it in the first place. I don't think it's mentioned if he lost of a lost of men in the attack but it seemed to go fairly well for them.

In regards to Bran becoming king at the end, I can kinda buy it as GRRM's take on the Fisher King and the same with Jon going back to the north as a reverse-Aragorn. That being said, even in the books it's not that well established or set out, and there would need to be a hell of a lot more work to get there, none of which is accomplished in the show.
 
I just read through this entire thread over the last week or so, and man, do I feel bad for everyone who had enjoyed this series. It's surreal to read through it from start to finish and see how it nose-dived into a trainwreck and was ruined so badly for some, they can't even read the books. (:_( It was funny to see the lead-up to the leaks on Season 8, but still. Feels to those who spent so long with the show, only to have it piss in their face.

A couple weeks ago I decided to read the books while I watched the show since I had only seen Season 1 (and forgot most of the books), and it really gave a different light on the series to me. The books are great. Even when there's a bit of rambling, you can get so engrossed you don't notice when you fly by chapters. It's not the greatest piece of literature but from the fantasy genre I can tell why it's so beloved - I think only The First Law series surpasses it in terms of engaging.

But the show I found to be lacking. I enjoyed it for the actors and the two scenes they added were fantastic, which were:

1. Tywin talking to Jamie as he skins a deer
2. Robert and Cersei talking about how their marriage sucks

And I put that solely to the actors having this presence on screen that made it believable. But so much was already being shuffled and cut in the first season. I know TV adaptation means a certain percentage needs to be unique, but you could tell from the start D&D really didn't get the characters in their episodes. The best example I can give is as if they read Rambo and thought the point was he was a killing machine and none of the other subtly. It's pretty bleak and you can see why it went off the rails when they ran out of book to the wreckage it became.

I'm going to read the books and watch the show at the same time until I run out of book, but I agree with a lot of others in this thread who say Martin isn't going to finish. Your best bet is probably fanfiction, as sad as that is. Even today you can tell GRRM would rather do Wild Cards and wished that was his magnum opus rather than ASOIAF, but I guess that just shows how the hype around something can kill it. Sometimes it's best to not adapt anything until it's wrapped up and finished.
 
Game of Thrones fucked up the ending so badly that tbh it made me rethink bothering with the books. I stopped about halfway through A Feast For Crows and haven't picked it back up, really since even before the final season started, because I could see so much where the books and show had diverged past any realistic "fixing" of the story. I knew that GRRM was basically typing with one finger on an old typewriter when it comes to pace and thus knew there would come a point where the show would outpace the book, and I knew that there were already a lot of changes that happened or events that happen in the book and weren't even feasible in the show such as the Lady Stoneheart arc. But it all just went completely to shit, it seems. They fucked Stannis over so hard, they ruined any good qualities Daenerys had, they ruined the suspense and dread of the Night King and the white walkers. The last season gets the brunt of the disdain but tbh the show started going downhill before that, it was just an acceptable amount rather than "why did I just waste my time watching this".


I would argue Dexter but then again Dexter was never really the "in" thing to the extent that Game of Thrones was. Dexter was something that adults watched but didn't really chatter about because they don't want to discuss a show about a serial killer around the watercooler. Dragons and swordplay and fucking? Yeah absolutely. But anyway Dexter and GoT share some things in their fuckups that I consider more than coincidental.

Both shows had a central character with somewhat murky origins - Dexter knows he's a foster child but doesn't remember much of anything that happened before the shipping container/Jon "knows" he's a bastard but doesn't know who his mother is or anything about his family beyond "ned stark's bastard"

Both shows had a family member central around the main character who was a love interest of sorts and also died either directly or indirectly because of the MC. Deb was in love with Dexter despite being raised as brother and sister and confessed her love to him, then Dexter's actions indirectly result in her suffering catastrophic injury - to spare her from being in a coma, Dexter kills her and dumps her body. In GoT, Dany is Jon's aunt and is in love with him, though he is a bit more into roll tide than Dexter was since he commits to banging her even after he learns. But in the end, Jon ends up killing Dany and her body is dumped (by a dragon this time).

Both shows had an exceptional first season, compelling enough second season, exciting third season, and extremely good 4th season. Both shows had a 5th season with quality moments but a lot of filler material. They diverge a bit for the 6th and 7th, as GoT had much better penultimate seasons imo than Dexter. But then they come out "strong" with an 8th season that suddenly throws a bunch of new shit at the wall and fucks it all up. With Dexter it was the sudden appearance of Vogel who let him know that he was actually molded to be a serial killer as part of a grander plot and there's a rival super serial killer out there etc. With GoT it was "oh so Dany has gone batshit insane at the drop of a hat and the big bad Night King you've been worrying about for thousands of years can be killed by a 14 year old girl".

And finally, both shows end after the MC kills his aforementioned familial romance and then fucks off. Here is where I literally laugh at it. Both shows feature a main character who, overcome with remorse and emotion, chooses to remove himself from society and move far away from everyone and everything else he knows. Dexter sails into a hurricane and fucks off up to some northern territory logging camp to live out his days in cold solitude. Jon goes back north of the wall to rejoin the Nights Watch and live out his days in cold solitude (well, except for his buds Tormund and Ghost, so +2 advantage to Jon).

Maybe I'm just overthinking but I couldn't help but feel that D&D got so tired of working on GoT and ready for a new project that they thought "whats the biggest fuckup in tv history and how can we outdo it?" and then ended up at a tossup between Dexter and Lost.
You stopped reading at the right place. Feast is meandering and mediocre and Dance is straight up bad - the plot slows to a crawl and the writing is obviously rushed and sloppy in a lot of places. If WoW ever comes out I'm guessing it will be even worse.
 
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