General GunTuber thread

[HumptiDouji]

Thanks, that saved me an hour of my life.

 

[WhoBusTank69]

I end up posting this same comment on every one of these 3rd party reviews with people mad about the price.

They aren't mad, they're skeptical and have lived in a world inhabited by PSA and Anderson*, not to mention endless amounts of nuanced builds to the point where buying a premade rifle is, socially and economically, seen as lazy and stupid even if you're using everything from the same brand anyway. Waving sales numbers around is also seen as dumb gloating as you cannot deduct unsatisfied customers from that total - they paid an entry fee, nobody knows if they endorse it.
I don't dislike you but, like Karl, you seem a tad out of touch with how the consumer perceives things.

*EDIT - Not endorsing PSA and Anderson since they're shit, but people buy them and promote them because they don't actually use them.

He's totally ignorant of InRange, FW, and Sinistral and all the DevLogs that went into this rifle.

To be fair, the majority of people buying rifles do not research them - nobody reads the manual, nobody should be expected to look up the philosophy of design in regards to a mass-produced racegun. People who knew of it balked at the price and built their own for cheaper because they can live without a cassette trigger and likely have spare BCGs lying around.
Also the guy beside him is his son, surprised you didn't notice the similarities.

 

[Sleazy Car Salesman]

Also the guy beside him is his son, surprised you didn't notice the similarities.

I did but not in time to care. I'm disappointed, but not surprised, to see that he took that one incident with the Garand and made it the roadmap for the rest of his life.

To be fair, the majority of people buying rifles do not research them - nobody reads the manual, nobody should be expected to look up the philosophy of design in regards to a mass-produced racegun. People who knew of it balked at the price and built their own for cheaper because they can live without a cassette trigger and likely have spare BCGs lying around.

Sure, for an average consumer that is a totally fair and accurate statement. Nutn is not an average consumer nor does he desire to be one, Nutn desires to be and sells himself as, a market expert and qualified tester/reviewer/buyer's guide of the products he features, he even states as much in his preamble on that very video. Someone in that position not only should have done some basic research into what he was reviewing by reading the manufacturer's notes and advertising especially when it is as freely and transparently available as it is for the WWSD, but someone in his position is in my opinion obligated to do that basic research since making ignorant and blatantly false statements like he was doing is outright unacceptable for someone who wishes to be seen as and who openly advertises themselves as consumer guides. This has always been Nutn's biggest failing, he wants to be the guy who has all the knowledge and can tell you what's hot and what's not, but he's too lazy to put in actual work and too stupid to know how hopeless he is.

A great example of this is in the WWSD review video, he states that he "Couldn't do a full test, you know 1,000 rounds. Like back in the 'old days'" and then cites "I just don't have the money-or the time for that matter-to really do those kinds of tests anymore." There are numerous problems with those statements, 1,000 rounds isn't that expensive especially since he admitted to using Red Army Standard in the test which is the cheapest shittiest ammo known to man, and driving out into the desert to fire off 1,000 rounds is not very much gas (which is another expense he mentioned so I know it's an issue for him) or time. If you get up at 0400 and bust your hump that's a day of filming, especially with how low effort and slapdash a NutnFancy video can get away with being. And that's totally ignoring the biggest problem with his statement which is that 1,000 rounds is not a comprehensive endurance test and is quite frankly not that many rounds period, I've had range days that were 1,000 rounds in the past. Now I get that it was a loaner rifle and he doesn't want to break someone else's shit, but the way it was worded made it sound like this was his gold standard test.

Another good example of Nutn failing to use his brain is the ammo itself. He bitched incessantly about how the WWSD he had lacked reliability, citing "light strikes" which caused multiple failures to fire. However he then stated later on in the video that they "ran three magazines, USGI, Magpul, and Lancer, magazines with brass. And those all ran flawlessly." They admitted that the only time the rifle caused a light strike was on the Red Army Standard (from here on out RAS) ammunition. Now whereas any moderately intelligent person with a working brain would say something to the effect of "Wow this ammo must have been a bad batch" or "Maybe I shouldn't purchase the RAS brand in the future" Nutn immediately turns around and blames the failures on the rifle having "Light strikes". The kicker is that he shows the primers of the rounds that failed to fire, none of them appeared to have any indication of a light strike, all the primers were dented in a manner that a fired round's primer would be expected to be dented, this probably means that they were either totally dud or overly stiff primers, which are both known issues with RAS 5.56. Instead of saying "Don't buy shit ammo, buy and stockpile quality equipment." he has deluded himself into thinking that quality ammo will be so scarce during the end of days that you need to immediately scav shit tier bottom of the barrel ammo and so if your gun can't fire that you're fucked, but he completely misses the subtext of "if ammo is that scarce you've reached the point in the End of Days where guns are going to be largely worthless anyways and you've also gone long past the point of running internal combustion engines anyways".

 

[Corn Flakes]

They aren't mad, they're skeptical and have lived in a world inhabited by PSA and Anderson*, not to mention endless amounts of nuanced builds to the point where buying a premade rifle is, socially and economically, seen as lazy and stupid even if you're using everything from the same brand anyway. Waving sales numbers around is also seen as dumb gloating as you cannot deduct unsatisfied customers from that total - they paid an entry fee, nobody knows if they endorse it.
I don't dislike you but, like Karl, you seem a tad out of touch with how the consumer perceives things.

Yeah, the point isn't that the gun isn't good. But something can be very good and still be (sometimes grossly) overpriced.

It's like with Ian's newest beloved the Laugo Alien: I'm sure it's a very nice gun. But it's not 4 grand nice. So even if the WWSD rifle is a perfectly competent race gun with all its i's dotted and its t's crossed, for a lot of people it's going to be too much because they wouldn't pay that kind of money for any rifle. Different value propositions for different people.

Russ might not care about it because these people aren't his target audience, but they're still fully entitled to their opinion there.

A great example of this is in the WWSD review video, he states that he "Couldn't do a full test, you know 1,000 rounds. Like back in the 'old days'" and then cites "I just don't have the money-or the time for that matter-to really do those kinds of tests anymore." There are numerous problems with those statements, 1,000 rounds isn't that expensive especially since he admitted to using Red Army Standard in the test which is the cheapest shittiest ammo known to man, and driving out into the desert to fire off 1,000 rounds is not very much gas (which is another expense he mentioned so I know it's an issue for him) or time. If you get up at 0400 and bust your hump that's a day of filming, especially with how low effort and slapdash a NutnFancy video can get away with being. And that's totally ignoring the biggest problem with his statement which is that 1,000 rounds is not a comprehensive endurance test and is quite frankly not that many rounds period, I've had range days that were 1,000 rounds in the past. Now I get that it was a loaner rifle and he doesn't want to break someone else's shit, but the way it was worded made it sound like this was his gold standard test.

Meanwhile some autist in Oregon is saying "they want to see a thousand round test? Alright, let's save up some Patreon money".

 

[TerminalTryHard]

I'd love to hear him try to explain the physics of the lower being made of polymer having an impact on accuracy.

 

[Sleazy Car Salesman]

I'd love to hear him try to explain the physics of the lower being made of polymer having an impact on accuracy.

I'll give you the short version, there was a bit of wiggle when the upper and lower were assembled (he claims 1/8 inch of slop but it wasn't that much, he also claims he's "Never seen an AR like that" which is total bullshit lots of ARs have a bit of wiggle between the upper and lower) and he claims that due to the material properties of polymer the tolerances would naturally need to be looser and so you'll never get as tight of a lockup between the upper and the lower so long as the lower is polymer.

Which is a good indication that he doesn't understand the material properties of polymer, the polymer manufacturing process, or what the term "tolerances" means in a manufacturing context.

Edited to add: He also bitches that the takedown pins aren't captive and that they have the ball detente in them. He seems to think that they will not stay in place properly when assembled and that them not being captive means they will automatically go to the Single Sock Dimension as soon as the rifle is disassembled. He advocates buying spare pins. I'd be willing to bet that if he had a G3 in front of him he would have no issues with the pins on that but then again who knows.

 

[WhoBusTank69]

Nutn is not an average consumer nor does he desire to be one, Nutn desires to be and sells himself as, a market expert and qualified tester/reviewer/buyer's guide of the products he features, he even states as much in his preamble on that very video. Someone in that position not only should have done some basic research into what he was reviewing by reading the manufacturer's notes and advertising especially when it is as freely and transparently available as it is for the WWSD, but someone in his position is in my opinion obligated to do that basic research since making ignorant and blatantly false statements like he was doing is outright unacceptable for someone who wishes to be seen as and who openly advertises themselves as consumer guides. This has always been Nutn's biggest failing, he wants to be the guy who has all the knowledge and can tell you what's hot and what's not, but he's too lazy to put in actual work and too stupid to know how hopeless he is.

If he wasn't horribly wrong in an autistic fashion he wouldn't be the nutnfancy we all know and love, he would be a competent reviewer.
The fact that he actually reviewed it and is causing controversy past his prime is why he is my favorite pre-Gun Tube lolcow.

 

[Full Spectrum]

The bill of materials in the complete WWSD rifle is more than $900. If we were to retail them direct at $1300, we’d make ~$100 after paying for the BOM and FET. And a rifle without all these parts and features is not the WWSD as endorsed by InRange.

The rifles were not a profit center. They were the attention getter to sell thousands of lowers, triggers, and other parts.

Isn't the actual bill of materials more like $700 with the FET bringing it closer to $900?

Edited to add: He also bitches that the takedown pins aren't captive and that they have the ball detente in them. He seems to think that they will not stay in place properly when assembled and that them not being captive means they will automatically go to the Single Sock Dimension as soon as the rifle is disassembled. He advocates buying spare pins. I'd be willing to bet that if he had a G3 in front of him he would have no issues with the pins on that but then again who knows.

To be fair that was a noted deficiency noted by the military on the early M16s (that was able to be corrected) on the front takedown pin, which is now captive.

 

[Sleazy Car Salesman]

To be fair that was a noted deficiency noted by the military on the early M16s (that was able to be corrected) on the front takedown pin, which is now captive.

A non captive pin is probably inferior to a captive one, yes. However I fail to see it as a serious deficiency, and I also see no reason why it would affect accuracy as Nutn asserts it would.

 

[WhoBusTank69]

A non captive pin is probably inferior to a captive one, yes. However I fail to see it as a serious deficiency, and I also see no reason why it would affect accuracy as Nutn asserts it would.

1. Again, it's nutnfancy.
2. It's a long since buried horse exhumed to be beaten based upon old arguments against the upper/lower receiver concept in general with the presumption that two halves meant to be separated cannot be consistent in position when together. Because the barrel is connected to the upper the argument is null and void and anyone who says otherwise is retarded(ie nutnfancy)
3. If you exempt a feature that's the norm and is expected, people will wonder why it isn't there even if it's not important.

 

[Sleazy Car Salesman]

1. Again, it's nutnfancy.
2. It's a long since buried horse exhumed to be beaten based upon old arguments against the upper/lower receiver concept in general with the presumption that two halves meant to be separated cannot be consistent in position when together. Because the barrel is connected to the upper the argument is null and void and anyone who says otherwise is retarded(ie nutnfancy)
3. If you exempt a feature that's the norm and is expected, people will wonder why it isn't there even if it's not important.

Look man, it's been a few years since I've sat down and watched Nutn, I'm entitled to one Nutn related sperg out every few years to exorcise the demons.

 

[Full Spectrum]

A non captive pin is probably inferior to a captive one, yes. However I fail to see it as a serious deficiency, and I also see no reason why it would affect accuracy as Nutn asserts it would.

A lot of super serious AR accuracy shooters will get matched billet sets that do not have any slop to them in order to chase down vibrational node variability along with many other black magic tricks to squeeze every last ounce of accuracy. If you get into reloading you will see your group size wax/wane when going from min to max and beyond max charge weights which is commonly associated with these vibrational nodes. Now how much pin slop comes into play with polymer lowers, super pencil barrels, and whatever factory ammo nutn was using seems questionable to me, though there is some basis for it in extremis but probably well beyond what most people use the WWSD for. He was able to point out how a lighter gun does shoot better with multiple variables. How much of it is pin slop I have no idea.

I've only ever used reloads and chased serious accuracy on my mega arms billet set AR-10 and bolt guns so I can't say for myself how much of a variable it is other than I can get half MOA on my AR-10 with some basic load development and 3/4 MOA with federal gold medal match 175gr 5 round groups. All the glass bedding guys from M14s, bolt guns, etc would suggest that a properly supported action is more accurate than one that isn't and there's plenty of data to suppor that even with free floated bolt gun barrels on bedded actions.

Edit: What timing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrFx9UnGMHE

 

[Sleazy Car Salesman]

A lot of super serious AR accuracy shooters will get matched billet sets that do not have any slop to them in order to chase down vibrational node variability along with many other black magic tricks to squeeze every last ounce of accuracy. If you get into reloading you will see your group size wax/wane when going from min to max and beyond max charge weights which is commonly associated with these vibrational nodes.

I'm aware. None of which is Nutn's wheelhouse or the point in the video.

 

[Full Spectrum]

I'm aware. None of which is Nutn's wheelhouse or the point in the video.

He talks about it in isolation earlier in the video merely as a fit and finish issue but later again at 30 mins in comparison to the POF Renegade as an accuracy variable.

 

[Puff]

What timing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrFx9UnGMHE

Came back to post this, but then thought to actually check your link on the off chance it was the same video.
Also, have an embed.

 

[SinistralRifleman]

Isn't the actual bill of materials more like $700 with the FET bringing it closer to $900?

IIRC that was costs before rifles actually started shipping en masse with some costs being estimated. Costs went higher than that with actual production.

 

[Puff]

IIRC that was costs before rifles actually started shipping en masse with some costs being estimated. Costs went higher than that with actual production.

If that was from 2020, prices are definitely up now from that too, right?

 

[SinistralRifleman]

If that was from 2020, prices are definitely up now from that too, right?

Yeah with inflation, raw material prices, and labor costs were going to be increasing prices on a lot of stuff going into 2023.

 

[TerminalTryHard]

I'll give you the short version, there was a bit of wiggle when the upper and lower were assembled (he claims 1/8 inch of slop but it wasn't that much, he also claims he's "Never seen an AR like that" which is total bullshit lots of ARs have a bit of wiggle between the upper and lower) and he claims that due to the material properties of polymer the tolerances would naturally need to be looser and so you'll never get as tight of a lockup between the upper and the lower so long as the lower is polymer.

Which is a good indication that he doesn't understand the material properties of polymer, the polymer manufacturing process, or what the term "tolerances" means in a manufacturing context.

Edited to add: He also bitches that the takedown pins aren't captive and that they have the ball detente in them. He seems to think that they will not stay in place properly when assembled and that them not being captive means they will automatically go to the Single Sock Dimension as soon as the rifle is disassembled. He advocates buying spare pins. I'd be willing to bet that if he had a G3 in front of him he would have no issues with the pins on that but then again who knows.

So he's the target audience for wedge locks. Neat

 

[Sleazy Car Salesman]

So he's the target audience for wedge locks. Neat

He specifically mentioned them in the video too.