General transgender discussion thread - Take the tranny related debates here.

[Feline Darkmage]

Not many operations involve removing completely functional organs that are not diseased in any way.

I mean the appendix is perfectly healthy and many people get it removed before its a problem, and same with wisdom teeth off the top of my head.

That and "perfectly healthy body parts being removed" is at odds with reality because it's being reconfigured, not removed. And Many of the same people who cry about this also whine that hormones cause erectile dysfunction. So like is it healthy or does it not get normal erections?

Pick one and only one.

Ah yes, lifelong negative impact on IQ, osteoperosis, infertility, increased stroke risk and that's just what I recall off the top of my head are a total cakewalk right? And that's just from the meds, lets not even get into all the plastic surgery. Transition as treatment sets people up for a disappointing life of trying to capture a dream that will never happen because we live in reality. TRANSITION, NOW! needs to be fucking shit canned so people like this guy can get treated for the actual mental disorder they have. Also, transgenderism is a linked comorbididy with schizophrenia so it's definitely apt to discuss them. It's also linked with autism but since everybody on this forum has that i'll let it slide.

Even your own link said the evidence available right now is very weak and needs to be looked at further. I'd hold off on that being a major tenet of my beliefs until then if I were you

I think men should fight against those expectations the way women fought against gender stereotypes. What's wrong with being seen as a gender non-conforming man instead of a real woman? You can never become one anyways, so it's a futile endeavor.

Absolutely nothing. Transgender people being that way doesn't prevent anyone from identifying any other way and people who try to drive wedges between the two groups are being cunts.

ETA:darkmage you seem like a decent person (with a thick skin) - I guess the only parallel I can think of is me being a feminist (old school, non man hating, remember when women were genuinely discriminated against, fought against that.) I think of myself as a feminist then I look at what utter shite your average millenial internet third wave feminist comes out with and I just cringe. That’s not what I think or believe, yet if I said I was a feminist I’d be labelled just like those crazy bitches.

I just wanna say that most of your post isn't really responding to the bit of mine that you quoted so I'm a little confused on the exact context. I can appreciate a good cringing at someone from some group or community you're a part of but I also like to think a little bit and re-consider things from time to time to see if it was really that bad or just phrased really poorly.

Don't forget the fertility drops, so it basicly becomes an attack on the people itself as a whole.

Guess you're gonna need more immigrants.

Unless you live in Israel.

View attachment 1034793

"muh trans are small number of mentally ill"
"muh trans is significantly inmpacting the huwite borth weights."

pick one and then travel to Israel or some other ethnostate with it.

I just want to say, thanks for bearing with us transphobes. Trans or not, you're cool and you shouldn't feel bad about being who you are.

Also, aren't women who do drag called faux queens? Pretty sure drag queens are exclusively male.

Yeah faux queens (or bio queens) are the more specific terms for that but it's all still a part of the drag scene. That being said I think tiggles made decent point about the whole "one of the good ones" thing. See more on that down below.

Anyways, the point is that resistance and warnings in regards to transgender stuff isn't necessarily just groupthink and hating the different. For some of us it's the result of a labour of love done as a result of choices made by people we care about. Yes, I think that people like @Feline Darkmage are making a mistake and yes, the fact that he/she isn't able to build coherent arguments as to why my research / assertions would be wrong confirms that view rather than diminishes it.

What research? The daily fail articles or some outdated shit from Blanchard like, what sources are you using that I'm supposedly not coherently responding to.

alright guys everybody take a break from dunking on troons to give some patronizing ass-pats to the “one of the good ones” token tranny u go girl, slay slay, your Adam’s apple is fierce and fabulous

It was tongue in cheek - I find the “rar rar fucking trannies in our toilets o wait not u, gentle friend uwu” hypocritical and also condescending to people who know exactly what they are getting into when they open containment threads like this one.

Yeah legit. There used to be a time years back when I was 'validated' by that shit but I really don't care for it any more. Of course that doesn't mean I'd prefer consistent hate because that's the wrong answer. I want there to be civility and I want people to see my side, inasmuch as I have one, is just for things to be better for all.

Separating people out into good and bad tranners is dumb.

For example - There is a huge difference between the gay-based tranny and the AGP.
Blanket hating something or someone doesn't solve issues and unfortunately this is an issue that won't go away and needs to be solved in some manner.

There really isn't though. There's a huge difference between creeps and non-creeps but it doesn't fall on some "HSTS vs AGP" pseudoscientific line. If you act like a creep or a dick you're acting like a creep or a dick it has nothing to do with sexual orientation or some oversimplistic outlook made by some boomer stuck in the 70s.

I've been seeing this a lot and I think it's funny that they choose "this" example for the mental gymnastics, when in reality trannies sperg out over gender and biology that they inevitably start tripping over themselves and often contradict their doctrines.

case in point: their adherence to gender stereotypes and norms of the opposite sex that "validates" them all while damning them and claiming gender doesn't exist.

That's not exactly a contradiction though. For one you could be talking about two different groups in the political sense of trans people or even if one person says both it could mean that they're performing more feminine to be accepted because that's just how society works right now but also lament that its bullshit.

I think calling them transsexual is better because the ones who medically transition are, in fact, changing their sex. They don't become the opposite sex, rather they become a specific type of intersex that we could simply call trans. Maybe transwomen could get MTF on their legal documents and transmen could get FTM to reflect the changes they've made to their bodies.

There is a distinction to be made. People can be transsexual or transgender: one, the other or both. That being said the ID thing may be a good solution... in a world with more protections for those categories or where we've socially decided to not be bigoted. Otherwise the risk of outing ones self in person to an authority figure who wouldn't need to know (like a police officer for one example) and getting hurt or worse is a strong possibility. A doctor of course would need to know.

who is purposely pumping themselves up with unnatural amount of hormones in a futile attempt to become the opposite sex.

It's literally not any different of a dosage than natal cis women on estrogen during menopause lmao. Plus, stop using the appeal to nature fallacy.

I bet most non-dysphoria cases, like AGP, would be gone if people stopped idealizing and having an unrealistic idea of what's like to be female.

Even under Blanchard's model AGP people are considered dysphoric. And people transitioning less is no reason to be against unrealistic expectations. It needs to be framed as everyone being able to be happier with themselves.

 

[qt farmer :)]

I mean the appendix is perfectly healthy and many people get it removed before its a problem, and same with wisdom teeth off the top of my head.

That and "perfectly healthy body parts being removed" is at odds with reality because it's being reconfigured, not removed. And Many of the same people who cry about this also whine that hormones cause erectile dysfunction. So like is it healthy or does it not get normal erections?

Pick one and only one.

these are considered "vestigial", which here is a definition:

(had to include a screenshot to the Kiwi mention)

I believe a functioning sex organ is considered far from vestigial.

That's not exactly a contradiction though. For one you could be talking about two different groups in the political sense of trans people or even if one person says both it could mean that they're performing more feminine to be accepted because that's just how society works right now but also lament that its bullshit.

regardless of political spectrum, there's a sense of "performing" and "emulating" femininity, which is entirely a social construct. what makes something so temporal as cultural norms supersede millenia of biological reality? and experiences that are inherent only to biological women becoming appropriated by biological men who "feel" (within the constraints of society's gender norms) like they're women?

 

[Feline Darkmage]

these are considered "vestigial", which here is a definition:

(had to include a screenshot to the Kiwi mention)

I believe a functioning sex organ is considered far from vestigial.

That runs into my other point though. Is it perfectly healthy or have hormones ruined it? You can't argue both but some people I've seen do.

regardless of political spectrum, there's a sense of "performing" and "emulating" femininity, which is entirely a social construct. what makes something so temporal as cultural norms supersede millenia of biological reality? and experiences that are inherent only to biological women becoming appropriated by biological men who "feel" (within the constraints of society's gender norms) like they're women?

I dunno man ask "feminists" who complain about "womanface" the "biology denial" shit is kind of a played out strawman now and betrays a lack of empathy for dysphoric experiences.

 

[TheSpinyShell]

It's literally not any different of a dosage than natal cis women on estrogen during menopause lmao. Plus, stop using the appeal to nature fallacy.

I wasn't trying to make an appeal to nature there. My point was that intersex people innately have atypical sex development/hormone levels due to their genetics while trans people intentionally alter theirs via HRT, so it would be inaccurate to call them intersex and treat them as if they were in a medical setting.

 

[qt farmer :)]

That runs into my other point though. Is it perfectly healthy or have hormones ruined it? You can't argue both but some people I've seen do.

if you're going to start pointing out logical fallacies, then you should be more aware, since you just used an anecdote for confirmation bias.
my understanding is that a sex organ is considered healthy whenever it is still intact & allowed to develop to completion, with hormones secreted from biological gonads. of course, this is given that no other genetic predisposition or external force disrupts this. however, knowingly blocking these functions from taking place, on top of medically altering such organs, to entirely lose its biological function and instead serve a new purpose that is entirely based upon sexual gratification, I would consider is unhealthy.

I dunno man ask "feminists" who complain about "womanface" the "biology denial" shit is kind of a played out strawman now and betrays a lack of empathy for dysphoric experiences.

I don't lack empathy. I truly want dysphoric individuals to receive the help they deserve., however they do not deserve genital mutation encouraged by propagandized ignorance. fully grasping the physical damage one does to their body, as well as being in a mental capacity to understand that, is impervious in aiding these individuals. we should be focusing more on the mental side of things, as well as being empathetic to their vulnerability, in order to combat this.

 

[Feline Darkmage]

if you're going to start pointing out logical fallacies, then you should be more aware, since you just used an anecdote for confirmation bias.

Fair enough.

I wasn't trying to make an appeal to nature there. My point was that intersex people innately have atypical sex development/hormone levels due to their genetics while trans people intentionally alter theirs via HRT, so it would be inaccurate to call them intersex and treat them as if they were in a medical setting.

Sorry, the way it was phrased gives off a very "unnatural therefor bad" kind of vibe.

to entirely lose its biological function and instead serve a new purpose that is entirely based upon sexual gratification,

Eeehhh no. What's gratifying about being less able to get it up? That again still doesn't deal with the issue of complaining a "healthy organ" is "mutilated" in SRS when it happens the vast majority of the time (though I'd have to go look for exact stats) way after taking HRT. You even say that hormone treatment alone makes it no longer healthy?

I don't lack empathy. I truly want dysphoric individuals to receive the help they deserve., however they do not deserve genital mutation encouraged by propagandized ignorance. fully grasping the physical damage one does to their body, as well as being in a mental capacity to understand that, is impervious in aiding these individuals. we should be focusing more on the mental side of things, as well as being empathetic to their vulnerability, in order to combat this.

You've been fed propaganda too. Trust me, nobody's immune. Education about complication risks is good. Painting every possible step of transition is bad. Ignoring psychologists already important role in transition does a disservice to professionals in the field and only bolsters arguments that are poorly backed and used as fearmongering material by by unsympathetic and somewhat malicious kinds of authoritarians who are against bodily autonomy.

I don't disagree that mental healthcare is one of the most important things to have.

 

[💗Freddie Freaker💗]

Absolutely nothing. Transgender people being that way doesn't prevent anyone from identifying any other way and people who try to drive wedges between the two groups are being cunts.

So why insist on saying you're a woman when you're a gender nonconforming man? Identifying as something does not make you that something, no matter how much you wish it did. Dysphoria sucks but feelings cannot bend biological reality.

I just can't wrap my mind around the importance some people put on getting a specific sex label.

There is a distinction to be made. People can be transsexual or transgender: one, the other or both. That being said the ID thing may be a good solution... in a world with more protections for those categories or where we've socially decided to not be bigoted. Otherwise the risk of outing ones self in person to an authority figure who wouldn't need to know (like a police officer for one example) and getting hurt or worse is a strong possibility. A doctor of course would need to know.

Well, we can't keep labeling people by whatever gender they say they feel like. That's just taking away protection from cis women for the sake of not hurting transwomen's feelings. We need a way to keep Jonathan Yaniv and his ilk away from potential victims.

 

[Piss Bear]

That runs into my other point though. Is it perfectly healthy or have hormones ruined it? You can't argue both but some people I've seen do.

Unless it’s literally necrotic, or maybe cancerous, there is no need to remove a penis... hormones can damage your sex organs yes, just take Buck Angel for example, but that’s not a justifiable enough reason to remove the whole thing. You don’t see people with erectile dysfunction just lopping the whole thing off... and it still serves the purpose of urinating, if anything. Lots of post-op trans people struggle to empty their bladders or control it after having SRS, among other things. Like having an orgasm... post-op people lose their sex drive completely in some cases.

And there is never a justifiable reason to repurpose a penis into a vagina. Medically, that has nothing beneficial going for it. It’s just a deadly infection waiting to happen. (Have there ever been studies on long-term people who have had SRS?)
Unless you are intersex I guess.

 

[💗Freddie Freaker💗]

Neuroscience of sex differences - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I hate citing Wiki, but yes, female and males have different brain structures. I think the studies show in Trans people that the likelihood of them having a female "brain" was limited to a very very select few - i.e the soft gays, like your Blaire Whites. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4987404/ I.E most of the people were attracted to the same sex, in that Transwomen studied with "female" like brains, where attracted to men and Transmen were attracted to women.

They certainly wouldn't show any difference in your typical troon - those freaks are all Transbians.

Like Intersex people, the amount of true "transgender" people out there would be super small. These AGP's all have perfectly normal albeit perverted male sex drives.

This is why Self-ID should be outlawed tbh.

It seems having a brain similar to the opposite sex tends to mean you're gay, not trans. You can have such a brain and experience no dysphoria. If we labeled people's sex based on their brains rather than their reproductive organs, a lot of people would get labels they don't agree with and most troons would still have to use the men's bathroom.

Gay brains structured like those of the opposite sex

Brain scans have provided the most compelling evidence yet that being gay or straight is a biologically fixed trait

www.newscientist.com

EDIT: in another thread, someone posted this rebuttal.

Also, you've got it the wrong way around – the roughly similar brain structures don't make them gay. It's them being gay that makes the structures roughly similar. Brains aren't inherently sexed, but actions and thought patterns shape the brain, and thus similar patterns of thought and behavior (whether by sexuality, socialization, culture, etc.) can produce similar results, just like a repeated experiment. But I think it's very clear to everyone who lives in a society that gay men are not just like women regardless of brain scan results. And if you think they are, try being male and sending a dickpic to your tinder vs grindr matches and report back your results.

It sounds about right. There is evidence suggesting that gendered brains are bullshit.

The sexist myths that won't die

Gina Rippon has spent her career trying to debunk the idea that men and women’s brains are different – yet she believes the “gender bombardment” we are under is greater than ever. Why?

www.bbc.com

There’s No Such Thing as a Male or Female Brain

When it comes to sex traits, brains are consistently inconsistent

www.smithsonianmag.com

 

[heathercho]

I dunno man ask "feminists" who complain about "womanface" the "biology denial" shit is kind of a played out strawman now and betrays a lack of empathy for dysphoric experiences.

Trans people are still not and never will be the opposite biological sex. So no matter what tranny koolaid people drink, no matter how many delusional men there are thinking they're pretty little girls, they aren't.
It's not a straw man, it's reality.

Nevertheless, the more transpeople - moreover, transwomen, continue to push the issue, spouting absolute delusion, bullying their way into the normies lives, support for transpeople will drop. I'd say that trannies have already pushed their luck and peaked trans a vast majority of people.
It didn't have to be this way. People - especially women - would have been wholly sympathetic with gender dysphoria, transpeople etc... if every perverted incel wasn't trooning out. Then insulting biological females. Invading everything they've had to work for. Still have to work for. How did troons manage to piss off the naturally compassionate sex?

But, you know, I think this is what troons forget. Well, not even forget, because they're males so they've never had to understand it.
The discrimination against biological females continues to this day. Not because of some construct like gender, but because of solid reality that they were born female. Not because they "identify" as female or "identify" as a woman, like that idiot troon "Julia" Serano insists. It's purely biological.
If women could just magically identify as men, wouldn't they have... like.... over 2000 years ago?
Wouldn't they have just magically identified as male to stop being beaten, sold off, raped, murdered, etc?

That's not even to mention how FTM are treated by troons and their "allies" - Girldicks shouting at them how they're now got "male" privilege. Girldicks "educating" them about the perils of being a woman and how their voices aren't as important, because they're not oppressed enough.

Troons want complete compliance from biological females at all times. You must agree they're women, female, must agree to give up your space to them, must agree with a smile on your face about how wonderful they are, must agree, that if you transition FTM, you're now an evil MALE with privilege and you have to take a seat so they can speak.

Troons don't give a shit about the reality of female issues. They just want Stepford like compliance.

How can compromise be reached if it's like that?

 

[Manah]

transition surgery

I'm not against it in theory, but in practice it seems like a very crude procedure that's still in it's infancy.

Maybe that's just because the majority of Extremely Online trannies are batshit crazy and incapable of doing proper followup to avoid having it go septic.

 

[teriyakiburns]

these are considered "vestigial", which here is a definition:

View attachment 1041044

(had to include a screenshot to the Kiwi mention)

I believe a functioning sex organ is considered far from vestigial.

The appendix isn't vestigial, but forms a fairly important part of the immune system. It serves as a sort of bomb shelter for gut flora. The routine removal of healthy appendices is a purely American thing, presumably because insurance can be charged for the operation.

 

[Lemmingwise]

What research?

I've cited a variety, but I'll make a nice collection. Give me a couple of days.

If women could just magically identify as men, wouldn't they have... like.... over 2000 years ago?
Wouldn't they have just magically identified as male to stop being beaten, sold off, raped, murdered, etc?

Being male... a free pass to never be beaten, sold off, enslaved, murdered for at least the last 2000 years. God damn, I love male privilege.

 

[Spastic Colon]

The appendix isn't vestigial, but forms a fairly important part of the immune system. It serves as a sort of bomb shelter for gut flora. The routine removal of healthy appendices is a purely American thing, presumably because insurance can be charged for the operation.

I've never known anyone who had their appendix removed without it being diseased. And with the cost of surgery in the US (out of pocket deductibles), nobody is going to have that surgery unless they really need it. (And I highly doubt that insurance would pay for it unless it was diseased.) Why would you have a healthy organ removed? There is no benefit to removing it. It's not like people think, hey I really want to streamline my body and get rid of anything I don't need.

I've cited a variety, but I'll make a nice collection. Give me a couple of days.




Being male... a free pass to never be beaten, sold off, enslaved, murdered for at least the last 2000 years. God damn, I love male privilege.

Fair point, but I will note that black men got the legal right to vote in 1870 while women didn't get it until 1920.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Fair point, but I will note that black men got the legal right to vote in 1870 while women didn't get it until 1920.

Only in america. Most western countries had only a year or two between male and female suffrage.

In any case I don't think being allowed to vote or not is anywhere near comparable to the other stuff that was mentioned, but you acknowledge that, so fair enough. Going from 50 years of voting rights disparity in a single nation is not really the same as 2000 years of protection from murder/slavery.

 

[byuu]

Please stop calling trannies 'men',
It's insulting to actual men.

 

[Kerr Avon]

Painting every possible step of transition is bad.

Yeah , no. People should know what they're getting into , especially when it involves chemical castration and mutilating genitals.

 

[Spastic Colon]

Only in america. Most western countries had only a year or two between male and female suffrage.

In any case I don't think being allowed to vote or not is anywhere near comparable to the other stuff that was mentioned, but you acknowledge that, so fair enough. Going from 50 years of voting rights disparity in a single nation is not really the same as 2000 years of protection from murder/slavery.

Being married off to a guy in exchange for a dowry is a lot like slavery, though. Arranged marriages still happen in the world today. And men were allowed to "discipline" their wives until modern times without any penalty. Women couldn't own or inherit property. So, while certainly I'm not downplaying the horrors of slavery or lynching or any of that -- women have had far less rights than men for a long time.

My point, though, was that in a country where black people were initially thought of as not fully human, they still managed to get the vote 50 years before white women who were considered human. They thought that black men, who they once thought were only slightly smarter than cattle, were still intellectually superior to women. And it took them 50 years to change their minds. So, yeah, women are a little salty that a bunch of men pretending to be women are trying to come in and get access to the things that we had to fight to get.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Being married off to a guy in exchange for a dowry is a lot like slavery, though

So is being gangpressed or drafted.

And men were allowed to "discipline" their wives until modern times without any penalty.

When I read some of the greek classics, I also read about the young high status women who would kidnap and marry the young strapping man before his family could object. As for the idea of "discipline without penalty", that's a blatant falsehood and re-imagining of history.

I'll give a single example let you rethink this notion.

here is a book that examines marital violence court cases that were reported in the london times between 1660 and 1857

Marital Violence: An English Family History, 1660–1857 | Reviews in History

reviews.history.ac.uk

1. Why would there be court cases if there was no penalty for violent discipline?
2. This review states that "Not surprisingly, given the contentious nature of marital litigation, the identification of violence always remained contested, and neither judges nor litigants ever reached consensus about exactly what marked unacceptably violent behaviour. " Judging from that, there was a line (however hard to define) between acceptable and unacceptable violence.

I also recall hearing that the punishment for men that let their woman beat them in colonial Canada was to beat those men publicly, but I never did manage to find strong sources for that, so until I do, treat it as a rumor rather than fact.

If you want to continue the discussion, let's make a seperate thread for it though.

So, yeah, women are a little salty that a bunch of men pretending to be women are trying to come in and get access to the things that we had to fight to get.

Like what? What do women have access to do that men don't? Only things I can think off is lower sentencing for similar cases, particularly for statutory rape and having a good chance to have divorce court in your favour, but apart from that I don't see many things that women have access to that men don't. This isn't rhetoric: I'm really asking for things that women have access to that men don't.

 

[Otterly]

Trans people are not anything like people with any intersex conditions. It’s a false equivalency used to a. lump them in with a group who have genuinely been treated appallingly by society and medicine so they can claim victim status and b. An attempt to put being trans in some sort of solid medical footing as a real thing with a biological rather than a psychological basis. (Yes I know psychology has its roots in biology but you know what I mean.) it’s like them riding the coattails of LGB to establish trans as a sexual identity and get all the same protections.

being intersex is NOT halfway between Male and female. It’s not being a bit of both. No human being has EVER been found who produces viable sperm and viable ova. Ever. The disorders themselves vary but the number of babies born where physical phenotypic appearance of sex is at odds with the actual genetics is tiny - it’s about 0.018%. Things like klinefelters are not true intersex disorders in that sense.

How Common Is Intersex? A Response to Anne Fausto-Sterling - PubMed

Anne Fausto-Sterling s suggestion that the prevalence of intersex might be as high as 1.7% has attracted wide attention in both the scholarly press and the popular media. Many reviewers are not aware that this figure includes conditions which most clinicians do not recognize as intersex, such as...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

How common is intersex? a response to Anne Fausto-Sterling. - PubMed …

archived 8 Dec 2019 17:54:41 UTC

archive.is

The trans lobby is also trying to get relatively minor things like hypospadias and PCOS classed as intersex (so that they can claim that a couple of percent of people are intersex,) and they are not. Intersex disorders are very specific biological errors where we know what’s happened and how it hard affected sexual development. There is no parallel to being trans, it’s not a feeling or an identity, it’s a specific mutation or chemical effect on a developmental pathway.
Intersex disorders say nothing whatsoever about being trans and it is disingenuous for the trans lobby to use intersex people like this.