Culture George R. R. Martin answers 'GRRM Will Never Finish Asoiaf' Complaints - GOT writer still not goddamn finished

http://www.newsweek.com/grrm-will-n...inter-delay-game-thrones-dreams-spring-907706

GEORGE R.R. MARTIN ANSWERS ‘GRRM WILL NEVER FINISH ASOIAF’ COMPLAINTS

HE’S UNAFRAID TO LEAVE ‘A DREAM OF SPRING’ INCOMPLETE
BY ANDREW WHALEN ON 5/1/18 AT 2:51 PM





George R.R. Martin is amply aware of how Game of Thrones fans bemoan his slow writing pace. He’s even contemplated the very scenario so many of them worry about: what happens if GRRM dies before finishing The Winds of Winter, or its follow-up, A Dream of Spring? Responding to commenters who somehow feel comfortable openly speculating about his death, Martin laid out the peace he’s made with the possibility of an unfinished Song of Ice and Fire series.

In a discussion about The Silmarillion , J.R.R. Tolkien’s posthumous pre-history of Middle-Earth, Martin defended his upcoming history of the Targaryens, Fire & Blood, pushing back against the idea that A Song of Ice and Fire will only continue to be loved if completed.

“You call LOTR ‘the main story,’ but if you had asked Tolkien, he would have said the SILMARILLION was his main story, his life’s work. Yet he was never able to complete it during his lifetime. Not because he didn’t care, however,” Martin wrote.

“Just for the sake of argument, let me point out that many many people invest their time into works without endings. F. Scott Fitzgerald never finished THE LAST TYCOON, Charles Dickens never finished EDWIN DROOD, Mervyn Peake never finished TITUS ALONE, yet those works are still read.”





If Martin, age 69, never finishes A Song of Ice and Fire, it won’t erase HBO’s Game of Thrones, or the pleasure to be found in the six novels already released. But Martin emphasized that he has no desire to leave behind an incomplete work. “I do intend to finish A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE, of course,” he wrote, “but doubtless Peake, Dickens, Fitzgerald, and Tolkien would have said the same.”

It was far from the only comment Martin responded to under his blog post announcing the release date for Fire & Ice (Nov. 20). Seemingly up for much of the night, Martin also discussed HBO’s Game of Thrones spinoffs, ASOIAF series cap A Dream of Spring and even the 1985 Mazda RX-7 he drives.

“We did not need anything else than Winds of Winter and the last book,” one commenter wrote. “All fucking spinoffs and histories and other moneymaking stuff could have waited!!!!!” (Who are these entitled goons!?)



Martin kept his head responding. “I am not sure HBO would agree that the spinoffs (I prefer the term “successor shows” myself) could have waited. With GOT set to end in 2019, they put five of them in the works, so as to have a new show… or more than one… to take up the mantle in 2020,” Martin wrote. “The successor shows were going to happen regardless. I prefer that they happen with my participation and guidance, rather than without it.”

“Do I ever get frustrated at all the criticisms? Certainly. Though I’d be more inclined to say ‘annoyed’ and ‘pissed off’ rather than frustrated,” Martin said. “The frustrations I feel are aimed mostly at myself and that stubborn, contrary, balky ‘moose’ (muse) of mine.”

Replying late into the night on April 30 and early on the morning of May 1, Martin riffed on everything from his last Dunk & Egg novella (“Eight years ago? Really? Damn.”) to the possibility of bringing in Stephen King to tag-team The Winds of Winter (“I envy his productivity, and I love his books… but we are very different people, and I could never work the way he does”).

Martin also answered specific questions about A Song of Ice and Fire, or sometimes refused to answer. Responding to a commenter asking the name of the city just east of Volantis, Martin responded, cryptically, “All cities have names.”

Asked about the reason behind The Winds of Winter delays, Martin said, “I have done some rewriting, yes. But there have been distractions as well.”

And no, it doesn’t sound as if some of his Winds of Winter material will be held back for A Dream of Spring. “I have not started working on A DREAM OF SPRING,” Martin wrote.

But, most importantly, Martin professed to be good at ignoring the baying hordes at his door. “When my work is going well—and no, it does not always go well, there are times of trouble—nothing exists for me but the scene I am writing. Publishers, editors, deadlines, readers, fans, none of that matters in the least, all of that is gone. Only the characters exist,” Martin said. “Sometimes this is difficult to explain to readers."
 
Another theory is that they're branching the story, the show and the books will differ in the end to some extent.


Some autistic sperging from me ahead

I think at this point this is probably the case; the TV show has cut a ton of plotlines/characters much earlier on in order to save money/time, so when it came to actually enacting the plots containing said characters, they sort of have to think things up on the fly. This for example is what lead to Sansa being in a completely different place and plotline than in the book. It's not necessarily a bad thing, what constitutes a good book and good TV are different things.

Plus y'know, they have favourites. Character wise, Ramsay was given far more...well, competence for lack of a better word than his book counterpart, and the writers simply didn't understand/like Stannis as a character. One of the suggested reasons that Dorne was a huge bag of plothole nonsense is because D&D really liked Indira Varma and wanted to give her way more focus.

That and you know, there's no books to draw from.

At this point, the books and show are separate entities- the end will almost certainly be the same because D&D must have been given a rough outline, but I figure that how the story gets there and who's alive will be different.
 
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I have never read the books, but the drop in quality has been so drastic since they ran out of Martin's material that I know he must be a pretty talented writer. Last season was shockingly amateurish. The upcoming, pointlessly short "season" will almost certainly be a total dumpster fire.

By not buckling down and finishing his life's work, Martin is just letting his legacy be devalued by D&D's hackery. God, their alternate Civil War series is going to be dog shit.
 
I woudn't even count on that anymore, D&D have rewritten existing stuff simply because they liked their version better before. Not that it matters. We'll never know because we'll never see GRRM's ending, if it even exists.

The most egregious example of that being them changing Dorne as drastically as they did because both of them had a crush on Indira Varma and wanted Ellaria Sand to be the spotlight character for that story arc. Why they bothered hiring an actor of Alexander Siddig's caliber when they were never going to bother using him I'll never know.

I also wish GRRM had kept the 5-year gap as Arya's storyline is fucking creepy even by the standards of these books considering she's not even 12 yet in the leaked The Winds of Winter chapters.
 
A bit over 17 years ago George R. R. Martin began rewriting A Dance with Dragons (then the fourth book in the series). Initially, he had intended five years to pass between the events of A Storm of Swords (book three) and A Dance with Dragons. But it had been a year since A Storm of Swords was released and there was still no end in sight. This delay was unacceptable for a writer of his caliber. It would slow things temporarily, and be a pain to rewrite, but in the long run he decided the series would be better and finish sooner if he scrapped the gap.

17 years ago, he made this decision over a potential 6 month to a year delay.

With his dying breath, GRRM will be staring at his Kaypro's monitor, a Wordstar document taunting him with its emptiness. As the blackness closes against his vision, he will think "Why didn't I just keep the five year gap."

Actually, his final thought will more likely be "Why didn't I follow the basic rules of fiction writing 101 and edit out a ton of pointless characters and subplots so I could have cleanly wrapped the series up years ago before I lost control of the story and grew tired of the ASOIAF universe?"
 
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At this point the WOW could come or not, everyone has already imagined their stannis wins everything fanfiction, the real books only purpose is to depress us at this point.
 
and the writers simply didn't understand/like Stannis as a character.
Was the show really that bad in that regard? I heard they completely butchered the "Tyrion's escape from jail" scene but I assumed most of the changes were inconsequential
 
Was the show really that bad in that regard? I heard they completely butchered the "Tyrion's escape from jail" scene but I assumed most of the changes were inconsequential

The writers really didn't get why Stannis was so admired in the books and basically portray him as an unrelenting hardass religious fanatic who prattles endlessly about "muh rights". He's essentially turned into a very basic foil for Renly, who has his bad elements in the book scrapped in a similar manner that Stannis has most of his good elements scrapped. Then in season 5 D&D had him burn his daughter, lose half his men overnight because Ramsay Bolton is a Villain Sue in the show, and then die an unceremonious death. Lots of book fans who have been speculating endlessly about how his upcoming battle in book 6 will go are basically praying that's D&D fanfiction.

To give you an idea of how much they didn't get it - no one cheers "Stannis! Stannis! Stannis!" when he saves the Night's Watch, and he never says to Jon about how he realized before heading north that he had been "winning the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been saving the kingdom to win the throne".
 
Martin's only 69? He looks older than dirt.

That's what being morbidly obese does to you. It ages you.

I have never read the books, but the drop in quality has been so drastic since they ran out of Martin's material that I know he must be a pretty talented writer. Last season was shockingly amateurish. The upcoming, pointlessly short "season" will almost certainly be a total dumpster fire.

By not buckling down and finishing his life's work, Martin is just letting his legacy be devalued by D&D's hackery. God, their alternate Civil War series is going to be dog shit.

The problem is the showrunners are just as tired of the series as Martin is. They want to be done with it, and they're basically rushing through it. Even HBO was like, 'we'll give you all the time you need, please 10 seasons'. They were like 'lol no'. Its why everything feels so rushed and forced after the series was a slow burn. They're basically running headlong into the exit as fast as they can to let someone else take over. They want to write their own characters and do their own shit, which is obvious. They've long stopped caring about the audience to the show and just want to get it over with. You can tell this in interviews.

And honestly, about his legacy, I don't think Martin cares. If he really cared, he would have buckled down and got his ending out before the show. Now pretty much whatever he writes is going to be overshadowed by the show's ending, whatever that is.

The writers really didn't get why Stannis was so admired in the books and basically portray him as an unrelenting hardass religious fanatic who prattles endlessly about "muh rights". He's essentially turned into a very basic foil for Renly, who has his bad elements in the book scrapped in a similar manner that Stannis has most of his good elements scrapped. Then in season 5 D&D had him burn his daughter, lose half his men overnight because Ramsay Bolton is a Villain Sue in the show, and then die an unceremonious death. Lots of book fans who have been speculating endlessly about how his upcoming battle in book 6 will go are basically praying that's D&D fanfiction.

To give you an idea of how much they didn't get it - no one cheers "Stannis! Stannis! Stannis!" when he saves the Night's Watch, and he never says to Jon about how he realized before heading north that he had been "winning the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been saving the kingdom to win the throne".

They've never cared much for the fans and basically the show became the opposite of others: Instead of heroes with plot armor, it became villains with plot armor. I was laughing hysterically at Season 5, when the whole fucking thing broke down completely when Ramsay could not lose, even when he was a fucking moron. It was meant to be shocking, but it was obvious what they did. They had no idea how Ramsay could win organically, so they just gave him plot armor until they took it away. That's why his death at Sansa's hands was empty. It happened because the show wanted it to happen. It just took his villain armor away when they were like 'aww we have to kill him now'. Ramsay was obviously a Marty Sue the writers were in love with, and he was fucking terrible. All of his plans worked flawlessly, when that didn't happen before or the plans were highly detailed, calculated and orchestrated. He was completely one dimensional and it was laughable. It was so fucking awful I stopped caring about the show at all at that point. I don't care about any of the characters, don't care about the prequels or anything else.

Its obvious the show detests its own existence and its audience at this point. I'll watch it for the sake of completion, but really I could care less about it. I'm more invested in Netflix shows and Westworld, shows that care about their audience and not driven by a bunch of faggot hacks who want to end the show as soon as possible and don't care at all about its quality.

Actually, his final thought will more likely be "Why didn't I follow the basic rules of fiction writing 101 and edit out a ton of pointless characters and subplots so I could have cleanly wrapped the series up years ago before I lost control of the story and grew tired of the ASOIAF universe?"

To me, they're overly long and filled with unnecessary detail and as he got more and more popular, its clear that his editor had less and less control. STOP WRITING TEN PAGES ABOUT FOOD AND ARMOR AND EVERYONE'S FUCKING SWORD, YOU CUNT. I DON'T CARE. If there's a recipe book based on your fucking food descriptions, then you are writing way too fucking much about what people are eating.

The fact that he's writing on software that's older than I am is insane. Wordstar was meant for bulk texts, not really something like creative writing. Word lets you do more, add comments, notes, color code, highlight, link multiple drafts, etc. I don't think that's the problem though.

I used to be interested in the series, but I honestly could give a shit now. You've let people speculate on what's going to be in the next book for half a fucking decade, so people are naturally going to be disappointed. You can't hold my interest for over a decade, then whine about how people are entitled. The people who are asking for your book built you, you owe your career to them along with your wealth. Calling them entitled is not fair. They've invested time and energy, supported you along the way, and you're telling them to shut the fuck up while you stuff your fat face and go over prequel garbage that nobody cares about. I've honestly stopped giving a shit and I'm pretty sure he's going to drop dead before he finishes because he's morbidly obese.
 
To give you an idea of how much they didn't get it - no one cheers "Stannis! Stannis! Stannis!" when he saves the Night's Watch, and he never says to Jon about how he realized before heading north that he had been "winning the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been saving the kingdom to win the throne".
...Renly is still alive? Oh boy, time for one of my favorite games - Did the writers butcher a storyline because they are garden variety hacks, or do they have a ideological agenda?

Thankfully, GRRM's lazy ass comes in useful for a change; since book 6 will never come out, I can pretend this never happened.
 
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...Renly is still alive? Oh boy, time for one of my favorite games - Did the writers butcher a storyline because they are garden variety hacks, or do they have a ideological agenda?

Thankfully, GRRM's lazy ass comes in useful for a change; since book 6 will never come out, I can pretend this never happened.

Oh no his ass dies just as it happens in the book, but the bad Stannis characterization started from his interactions with Renly. Basically the show turned Renly into a gay stereotype just short of him speaking with a lisp and made him "too good for this world" instead of a secret asshole like how Cat saw him when she went to meet the both of them.
 
The most egregious example of that being them changing Dorne as drastically as they did because both of them had a crush on Indira Varma and wanted Ellaria Sand to be the spotlight character for that story arc. Why they bothered hiring an actor of Alexander Siddig's caliber when they were never going to bother using him I'll never know.

I also wish GRRM had kept the 5-year gap as Arya's storyline is fucking creepy even by the standards of these books considering she's not even 12 yet in the leaked The Winds of Winter chapters.
The Mercy chapter was so transparently written with the assumption that Arya was 16 and had been in deep cover for years it really drives the mistake home.

At this point the WOW could come or not, everyone has already imagined their stannis wins everything fanfiction, the real books only purpose is to depress us at this point.
Stannis was meant to be a tragic hero from the start. He'll die fighting the Others and even he knows it.

Was the show really that bad in that regard? I heard they completely butchered the "Tyrion's escape from jail" scene but I assumed most of the changes were inconsequential
Most of the changes in the first few seasons are of the strange kind that, while seemingly inconsequential in that they don't alter the chain of events, radically change the tone and themes. Tyrion's reunion with Jaime is one of those. It's not a happy meeting in the books because Jaime confesses complicity in something very terrible Tywin did to Tyrion as a young man that completely destroys their relationship. It's kind of necessary to sell Tyrion's glee at the prospect of the defeat of his family and the utter wreck he is after that point. Basically everything with Stannis is another one of those things. But Robb suffers from it too, and Renly, and Littlefinger. Some of it isn't terrible egregious but even without running out of material these minor things snowball until the TV show basically turns into a soap opera with no coherent meaning at all, just a game of seeing who dies and who lives.
 
...Renly is still alive? Oh boy, time for one of my favorite games - Did the writers butcher a storyline because they are garden variety hacks, or do they have a ideological agenda?

Thankfully, GRRM's lazy ass comes in useful for a change; since book 6 will never come out, I can pretend this never happened.
Nah Renly is dead. Dies basically the same way in the books as the show. Again it's not the bare facts of the events that changed, it's the tone and the contextual significance. Renly is gay (possibly bi) in the books but he wasn't a particularly good man. He was well meaning but immensely arrogant and lazy. He wanted to be king because it seemed like it would be fun and he just assumed he'd be good at it. I'd say they white washed his flaws away in the show for ideological reasons, except..the show version of Renly is also pretty much a stereotypical twink. Book Renly is not afraid of blood. He's a fucking tourney knight. He bleeds all the time. And yeah he dresses well, but the ladies love him and he's also partakes in traditionally manly past times.

Could be a case of SJWs secretly being the most bigoted of all, I guess. Renly is flawless king that should have been because faggot, but also all faggots are girly men that squeal at the sight of blood.

EDIT: basically even in the good seasons, every possible conflict is simplified. The writers can't do nuance. Melisandre vs. Davos in the books is a conflict between a religious fanatic and a normal man who also happens to be devout. Melisandre vs. Davos in the show is a conflict between a religious fanatic and an atheist. No shades of grey allowed.
 
So what you fine young felons are telling me is that this meme image is 100% accurate?
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Yeah, pretty much, but that doesn't mention, he signs the contract in blood. In the books, Shireen and Selyse aren't even anywhere near Stannis.

What's funny considering the show storyline is Stannis did actually basically offer to make Jon Lord Paramount in charge of the North with a hot wife, but for some crazy reason he decides not to.
 
Memba when a giant chunk of Sandman revolved around a girl who was a "dream vortex" and her roommate was a pre-op tranny that pranced around in his panties for the duration of a hurricane, got crushed by a collapsing building, and she went to his funeral to smear lipstick on his tombstone?
Except that Gaiman can actually make something that stupid compelling, which puts him five steps above the average far-left nutjob.
 
Was the show really that bad in that regard? I heard they completely butchered the "Tyrion's escape from jail" scene but I assumed most of the changes were inconsequential
Yeah....books may be overrated but the show majorly dropped the fucking ball regarding some of the more interesting and compelling plot points.

After 4 seasons of building up and commenting on how Tyrion's first wife "turned out to be a prostitute looking to steal his shit and Tywin ordered her to be gangraped by the whole lannister garrison as punishment" the show decided to....completely and utterly abandon where that whole plot point was going for no reason at all, with Jamie's admission to Tyrion that she was actually just an innocent girl who fell in love with him, who Tywin had gangraped just to punish Tyrion, and the following enmity between the two brothers being entirely removed along with Tyrion's darker side.

Same kinda thing with Stannis. Following the plot of the books had stannis be depicted as a ruthless but extremely dedicated and at heart a caring king....and then over the course of a single episode abandoned all that characterisation for no reason other than to turn him into a religous zealot idiot who murders his beloved daughter and last heir for what is effectively just magic beans, before being randomly killed offscreen.

The problem is the showrunners absolutely fucking loathe the very concept of nuance, and thus the main protagonists are not allowed to be anything other than unambiguously good, and other characters are shown as being just stupid and/or evil for no reason other than because it makes the "good" characters look better.

Hell they have the Iron Bank of Braavos, which is the central institution of the most rabidly anti-slavery faction in the setting be randomly turned into the main financiers of the global slave trade who want Danyrys killed for abolishing it, just because it makes them and Cersei look all the more eeeeeeeevil and Danyrys all the more pure and good and wonderful
 
Quite a few going by the Sad Puppies/Rabid Puppies saga. And they are so cancerous that when a, I believe, lesbian was suggested by Sad Puppies they began to viciously attack her for being a nazi and say that even if she did win a Hugo she wouldn’t deserve it.
There's a major difference between complaining and reading. Anything beyond If I Was A Dinosaur is too complex for most of these social-media addicts.
 
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