GPUs & CPUs & Enthusiast hardware: Questions, Discussion and fanboy slap-fights - Nvidia & AMD & Intel - Separe but Equal. Intel rides in the back of the bus.

[StacticShock]

I have seen benchmark videos with stutters in some of the same games using the 8700g.

was it ChristoGevedjov? dude has been putting his apu's to the limit, even testing a 8500g with doom parry ages.

he seems to be mainly focused on budget builds, course it's desktop focused, i haven't found any notebook focused videos though.

 

[Stratos Sphere]

was it ChristoGevedjov? dude has been putting his apu's to the limit, even testing a 8500g with doom parry ages.

he seems to be mainly focused on budget builds, course it's desktop focused, i haven't found any notebook focused videos though.

Its been a year but i believe it was an Ancient Gameplays vid or a HUB vid. Another thing is that I was playing at 1600p with the lowest I would go being 1200p so my results were gonna be worse.

 

[The Ugly One]

Its been a year but i believe it was an Ancient Gameplays vid or a HUB vid. Another thing is that I was playing at 1600p with the lowest I would go being 1200p so my results were gonna be worse.

At 1600p, you're drawing 2.2x as many pixels as 1080p, so it's not too surprising that you'd run into issues.

 

[Fcret]

I don't see the low and entry level GPU market surviving, With AMD perfecting the APU. Make a PS6 equilvent APU for PC use and a Big APU and there you go.

It won't and it won't just be the low and entry level GPU market. I fully expect everything up to and including midrange to be eroded away by APUs in the next 10 years.

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if this is what Microsoft is cooking up as part of their 'future of Xbox'

 

[The Ugly One]

It won't and it won't just be the low and entry level GPU market. I fully expect everything up to and including midrange to be eroded away by APUs in the next 10 years.

It already has been. When GPUs first really got going by the early 2000s, you couldn't play 3D games at all if you didn't have one. Now you can play most games at playable frame rates, and before the sturm und drang hits, I'll just remind everyone that in the early 2000s, most PCs could only run Splinter Cell and Doom 3 at around 30 fps. It's entirely playable.

 

[4090 Chad]

It won't and it won't just be the low and entry level GPU market. I fully expect everything up to and including midrange to be eroded away by APUs in the next 10 years.

The biggest hurdle for APU adoption will be value. When the 8700g came out, you could buy a 6600 and a 12100f combo for similar money and get significantly better performance.

Even if AMD and Nvidia completely stop producing cards like the 6600 in the future, there will always be high end cards and those cards from a few gens previous would become the new low/mid range.

 

[The Ugly One]

iGPUs are already nearly 8% of gamers on Steam.



This chart is always good for a dose of reality:

• The average PC gamer does not have meaningfully more powerful hardware than the latest game consoles
• AMD's market share is trivial
• XX60 GPUs dominate; high-end GPUs (4090, 5090, etc) might as well be marketing stunts.
• People keep their GPUs for a long time. NVIDIA's 50 series is not targeted at 40 series owners. It's targeted at 10 series and 20 series owners looking to finally upgrade.

 

[Mister Fister]

From what I understand Mark Cerny is basically integrating the PS6 into UDNA so U can see excess being used as APUs here.

 

[4090 Chad]

iGPUs are already nearly 8% of gamers on Steam.

At least with the Intel igpus, those are stapled on to basically any laptop you buy that’s above $400. Can you actually game with the UHD igpu other than extremely old retro style games?

 

[The Mass Shooter Ron Soye]

From what I understand Mark Cerny is basically integrating the PS6 into UDNA so U can see excess being used as APUs here.

Not sure what you're trying to say. Yes, the rumor mill is pointing to UDNA1 (formerly RDNA5) for PS6. It could be around RTX 4090 performance (give or take).

There is some question about whether next-gen APUs like Medusa Point will move to RDNA4 or stay on RDNA3.5. They need FSR4 support more than anything else so hopefully they move right along, or AMD backports FSR4 to RDNA3/3.5. We might see RDNA4.5 APUs before UDNA APUs.

Coreteks is talking up possible MCM chiplet UDNA desktop GPUs, based on a patent.

At least with the Intel igpus, those are stapled on to basically any laptop you buy that’s above $400. Can you actually game with the UHD igpu other than extremely old retro style games?

You can play Skyrim at around 720p low on Skylake desktop graphics (even the N100 should beat that). Not exactly what I'd call a retro game, but it was designed to run on the Xbox 360 (wow, we're old). Emulators can also do pretty well, although possibly with inconsistent performance (I got frequent frame drops in between smooth performance at 150% speed when testing Pokemon Ultra Sun, a 3DS game).

Intel's mobile iGPUs can be even better, with Lunar Lake (nearing $500 on sale) rivaling Strix Point's Radeon 890M (16 CUs). You can get a legitimate 1080p experience in newer games.

With Meteor Lake and Arrow Lake mobile, higher power "H" APUs have been given 7-8 Xe cores, while the "U" models only get 3-4 Xe cores, so that kind of sucks. Here's some testing of the Core Ultra 5 125H (Meteor Lake with 7 Xe cores).

 

[Mister Fister]

Not sure what you're trying to say. Yes, the rumor mill is pointing to UDNA1 (formerly RDNA5) for PS6. It could be around RTX 4090 performance (give or take).

There is some question about whether next-gen APUs like Medusa Point will move to RDNA4 or stay on RDNA3.5. They need FSR4 support more than anything else so hopefully they move right along, or AMD backports FSR4 to RDNA3/3.5. We might see RDNA4.5 APUs before UDNA APUs.

Coreteks is talking up possible MCM chiplet UDNA desktop GPUs, based on a patent.

You can play Skyrim at around 720p low on Skylake desktop graphics (even the N100 should beat that). Not exactly what I'd call a retro game, but it was designed to run on the Xbox 360 (wow, we're old). Emulators can also do pretty well, although possibly with inconsistent performance (I got frequent frame drops in between smooth performance at 150% speed when testing Pokemon Ultra Sun, a 3DS game).

Intel's mobile iGPUs can be even better, with Lunar Lake (nearing $500 on sale) rivaling Strix Point's Radeon 880M (16 CUs). You can get a legitimate 1080p experience in newer games.

With Meteor Lake and Arrow Lake mobile, higher power "H" APUs have been given 7-8 Xe cores, while the "U" models only get 3-4 Xe cores, so that kind of sucks. Here's some testing of the Core Ultra 5 125H (Meteor Lake with 7 Xe cores).

Fine, I was trying to think of AMD making both the APU for PS6 and an equilvent APU for desktops.

 

[The Mass Shooter Ron Soye]

Fine, I was trying to think of AMD making both the APU for PS6 and an equilvent APU for desktops.

Their strategy seems to be evolving towards "we'll make as many APUs as you want", whether that means monolithic or soon chiplet designs.

But you can't expect anything nice directly on the desktop socket, limited to 128-bit DDR5, or 128-bit DDR6 for AM6 (PS6 is probably 256-bit GDDR7).

Only the Halo models will be close to console performance, and they will be expensive, AI-oriented, using LPDDR6 or LPDDR5X.

For Sony's strategy, I like the idea of 72 CUs UDNA for the main console, and 36 CUs for a cheaper model and/or handheld.

We'll probably see the duds become crappy CPUs with graphics disabled for the Chinese market, like with PS4, PS5, Xbox, etc. Like this trash: https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/amd-4700s-desktop-kit-review-ps5-cpu/

 

[The Ugly One]

At least with the Intel igpus, those are stapled on to basically any laptop you buy that’s above $400. Can you actually game with the UHD igpu other than extremely old retro style games?

It can run DOTA 2, the #3 game on Steam, at over 100 fps.

League of Legends at 70 fps.

Doesn't fare so well in the newest games. My guess is most of those 8%ers are college students who were given a laptop for school and kids at home whose parents bought an all-in-one or something.

@The Mass Shooter Ron Soye, seems to me that anyone making an iGPU intended to be anything more than a fallback for when the dGPU isn't available should be putting 4 channels of memory on the chip.

 

[4090 Chad]

Assuming APUs do become the standard for the low to mid range for PCs, should we expect lawsuits from Nvidia or will they just not even try to compete in that space anymore?

 

[The Mass Shooter Ron Soye]

@The Mass Shooter Ron Soye, seems to me that anyone making an iGPU intended to be anything more than a fallback for when the dGPU isn't available should be putting 4 channels of memory on the chip.

AMD is allergic to putting more than 128-bit in the desktop sockets or mainstream APU BGA sockets. Strix Halo is finally the 256-bit mega APU of our dreams, but only delivering modest 4060 or 4070 mobile gaming perf (should finewhine well with "unlimited" VRAM).

Infinity Cache increases the effective bandwidth. It allowed RDNA2 to use modest bus widths. AMD hasn't put it in a mainstream APU yet, hopefully that changes soon with Medusa Point.

Intel hasn't even made a "desktop APU" yet. Now that they are using chiplets all over and flailing around, maybe they will do something interesting.

Assuming APUs do become the standard for the low to mid range for PCs, should we expect lawsuits from Nvidia or will they just not even try to compete in that space anymore?

Nvidia voluntarily abandoned low-margin MX laptop dGPUs.

They are cautiously moving into laptops, desktops/mini PCs with a 20-core ARM APU. They need to avoid the fate of Crapdragon X L33t: https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-i...-ascend-gx10-grace-blackwell-desktop-platform

 

[The Ugly One]

I don't really see an APU as conceptually distinct from what's already on the market, other than the iGPU is a little bigger than usual.

Assuming APUs do become the standard for the low to mid range for PCs, should we expect lawsuits from Nvidia or will they just not even try to compete in that space anymore?

The issue with NVIDIA making its own x86 CPU is that Intel holds a bunch of patents on implementing the ISA, so you need a license from them. AMD has a license going back to the 8086 days, which Intel did in fact try to block them from using to make anything more than a 286, but Intel lost a key lawsuit, and that kept AMD alive. Then AMD invented x86_64, so the two companies are now mutually dependent. There's no way Intel will license x86 out to anyone again, ever.

Nobody is trying to implement NVIDIA's GPU instructions, so there's nothing similar for them to sue over.

 

[Total Annihilation]

I don't see the low and entry level GPU market surviving, With AMD perfecting the APU. Make a PS6 equilvent APU for PC use and a Big APU and there you go.

If Microshit opens their next xbox to PC games too (even with or without Steam, but Microshit might just say fuck it and open it for pc gayming), then they could do well on a $750 or so system for their next xbox; then again this is Microshit and they will fuck it up somehow probably.
Basically if they're not retarded, then they could make a PC/Xbox hybrid that would appeal to most low to mid tier gamers (akin to a gaming laptop, as it wouldn't be upgradeable). That said, I'm still hoping Valve makes a home console Steam Machine again, and not just a standalone VR; it'd be awesome if it would allow for an eGPU, to help with the longevity of it.

 

[ZMOT]

I'm still hoping Valve makes a home console Steam Machine again, and not just a standalone VR; it'd be awesome if it would allow for an eGPU, to help with the longevity of it.

there's no point for valve to make their own consoles. the steam deck only happened to see if there's a space in the portable market, and it's heavily subsidized.

valve is also notoriously lazy if they can save work and offload it to the customers (that's not always a bad thing). the smart play I can see them do is something like bazzite, which companies can test against and offer support for (which is the main issue, steam deck is a single set of hardware which makes this easy, and the steam deck OS already works this way), with a performance rating to show the capabilities in a simple enough number for casuals to understand. so in addition to hardware requirements putting a "your computer must be this fast" on the store page.

agree on the standalone vr part. I just want an HMD since I'll use it wired anyway, don't make me spend more on a tacked-on mobile phone I won't use anyway.

 

[StacticShock]

I fully expect everything up to and including midrange to be eroded away by APUs in the next 10 years.

that is kind of working-ish but the people are retarded alongside amd not making things clear, i only bought a rx580 because of my motherboard not supporting the ryzen apu's even with a BIOS update, as i said i kind of wanted to buy a 5600gt and slap 64GB ram to not worry about the dynamic vram allocation past the preset 8GB which is something not many people who are selling amd kits with 2400~3600g's in here seem to have noticed but considering the low cache and mobo incompatibility i just gave up and picked a rx, it was within budget range.
it wasn't really a money issue but more on what my 9 year old mobo + ryzen 2700 can handle with the pci3.0, i will skip most of the current slapfights and will only open my wallet once ddr6 tech is out, in the meantime i will focus on prepping this current computer as a budget NAS.

 

[WelperHelper99]

At least with the Intel igpus, those are stapled on to basically any laptop you buy that’s above $400. Can you actually game with the UHD igpu other than extremely old retro style games?

You can play visual novels (and Dawn Of war, that ran well on my shitbox)