GPUs & CPUs & Enthusiast hardware: Questions, Discussion and fanboy slap-fights - Nvidia & AMD & Intel - Separe but Equal. Intel rides in the back of the bus.

Fcret said:
Zen 5 is quite strong in productivity workloads on Linux and really only seems to be held back on desktop by a weak I/O die and Windows weirdness - the enterprise counterpart Turin chips with a beefier I/O die seem to be absolute beasts.
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With the rapid rise of CUDIMM causing memory speeds to go up, and more reliably, AMD definitely needs to pay more attention to the I/O die and memory next time around. At least 3D V-Cache lessens the need for higher memory speeds for gaming.


If AMD felt threatened by Arrow Lake, they could do a Zen 5+ next year. But nah.

Just Some Other Guy said:
The Zen5 X3D chips have yet to come out for those seeking gaming performance...
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We're expecting +8% gaming performance between the 7800X3D and 9800X3D, with higher clock speeds being a contributing factor, although the 3D V-Cache may have changed significantly. At the very least, the way it's laid out on TSVs seems to be different out of necessity.

The 9800X3D is of no consequence to a 7800X3D owner, but it seems like AMD has stopped producing it to clear it out of the market. So it's 9800X3D or nothing on AM5.
 
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The Ugly One said:
It wouldn't do anything; the heat still has to go from the plate to outside somehow, and the thin surface at the edge of this plate wouldn't allow much heat transfer. There's ongoing research in using microfluidics to cool stacked dies.
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what about something like this? the chiplets would be mounted onto a vertical substrate which connects them to chiplets on other vertical substrates using an upper and lower substrate. there would be a miniaturised heatsink covering the chiplets and a gap between the vertical substrates which allows for liquid cooling to flow through. aside from figuring out how to make the traces do a 90 degree bend without breaking easily. the cpu could just hook to water cooling directly as these radiators will be enough as long as the water cooling is clean and inert.
 
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Betonhaus said:
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what about something like this? the chiplets would be mounted onto a vertical substrate which connects them to chiplets on other vertical substrates using an upper and lower substrate. there would be a miniaturised heatsink covering the chiplets and a gap between the vertical substrates which allows for liquid cooling to flow through. aside from figuring out how to make the traces do a 90 degree bend without breaking easily. the cpu could just hook to water cooling directly as these radiators will be enough as long as the water cooling is clean and inert.
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That's getting into microfluidics again (flow in tiny spaces is weird), which isn't really my specialty, but is definitely something people are working on. I don't know about this specific shape, or whether you'd really want to have the wafers on posts like that.
 
The Ugly One said:
That's getting into microfluidics again (flow in tiny spaces is weird), which isn't really my specialty, but is definitely something people are working on. I don't know about this specific shape, or whether you'd really want to have the wafers on posts like that.
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aside from the fact that you only get two (maybe) one sides to place the traces between chiplets instead of four sides, they may be the most efficient configuration. every vertical stack could have some processing coupled with their memory on the same post, and depending on how the posts are connected to the lower and upper substrates they could become easier to swap out for different cpu configurations
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like heres a view of the side of a post with no heatsink on with all it's chiplets (which are designed to be short and wide to best make use of space), and a view of the other side where you can see all the posts with their chiplets and cooling.
the posts could be taller and fewer to accommodate larger chips, but if the posts are about 50mm wide (length of an intel chip) and maybe 5-10mm tall, that's not microfluidics unless the fins of the radiators are too small

complicated and extravagant, yes. but this would be offered in a socket designed for extreme gamers and servers where the cost will be acceptable.
 
We may just be reaching the limits of what transistors can do. That doesn't make it the end of progress, there are alternatives. For example you can make an absolutely tiny switch using superconductors and magnetic fields. Enveloping a superconductor in an alternating magnetic field and using the Meissner effect to create a Josephson junction was researched by IBM back in the 80s, and showed some promising results. There was also a product called "cryotron" back in the 50s using a similar design, but that was hampered by needing the superconductor to switch states completely (which is slow), but the Josephson junction should be able to switch nigh instantly. This would actually be a truly digital switch, unlike transistors which are actually analog. It would use absolutely tiny power to operate, and would also create very little waste heat, so it's a very promising alternative.
You do of course need to first cool the computer to near absolute zero in order for it to operate, so boots would be both very slow and fairly expensive, but once it's up and running efficiency is limited more by your heat pump and insulator than by the circuit itself. Not a technology we're likely to ever use in phones or cars, or even desktop computers, but I could see datacentres getting into it quite easily. It would actually be a huge savings in terms of cooling costs.
 
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Susanna said:
We may just be reaching the limits of what transistors can do. That doesn't make it the end of progress, there are alternatives.
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The industry leader hasn't even moved to GAAFETs yet, and there are a couple of viable types of transistors on roadmaps after that. We haven't seen full 3D yet. And of course, there are all sorts of alternatives... like optical computing.
 
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The Mass Shooter Ron Soye said:
The industry leader hasn't even moved to GAAFETs yet, and there are a couple of viable types of transistors on roadmaps after that. We haven't seen full 3D yet. And of course, there are all sorts of alternatives... like optical computing.
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Well yeah, I didn't say we're at the limits just yet, only that we may need to start considering going beyond transistors.
 
maybe I can get lucky on some black friday 13/14th deals. Shame these are a flop. If i didn't need a new block, i'd get an x3d.
 
TheRaptorJesus said:
11990k that can't boost for shit and has to be locked to 4.8 all core. Even at stock settings it crashes. This gigabyte board keeps throwing ACPI errors in the event viewer as well.
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Sounds like you have a motherboard that's about to completely shit itself and die.
 
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Is this a good year to invest in a new rig? Mine's starting to show its age. I've got a 2070 super and a ryzen 5 3500x that I bought in 2019 for about $900. Would preferably like to stay under $2k for something new.
 
Norstein Bekkler said:
Is this a good year to invest in a new rig? Mine's starting to show its age. I've got a 2070 super and a ryzen 5 3500x that I bought in 2019 for about $900. Would preferably like to stay under $2k for something new.
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What do you use it for? Does it still work well for that?
If we assume you're playing games on it, does it run the games you want to play well at the quality settings you like to use? If so, no, you don't need to upgrade yet.
 
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Susanna said:
What do you use it for? Does it still work well for that?
If we assume you're playing games on it, does it run the games you want to play well at the quality settings you like to use? If so, no, you don't need to upgrade yet.
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Nah, I'm definitely having to dial lots of things back. I definitely want to upgrade, and I know there's new lines of cpu/gpu on the horizon. My question is more from a price standpoint, and how the new chips are going to affect market prices on current stuff. I haven't really paid attention to PC parts since I bought my last one, and I really have no idea what even would be a worthwhile upgrade at this point. From benchmarks it looks like 4070 and up is what I should be looking at, but idk.
 
Norstein Bekkler said:
Nah, I'm definitely having to dial lots of things back. I definitely want to upgrade, and I know there's new lines of cpu/gpu on the horizon. My question is more from a price standpoint, and how the new chips are going to affect market prices on current stuff. I haven't really paid attention to PC parts since I bought my last one, and I really have no idea what even would be a worthwhile upgrade at this point. From benchmarks it looks like 4070 and up is what I should be looking at, but idk.
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4060Ti or 4070 would be the go-to budget options right now, yeah, but you may also want to consider the 7800XT. For processor you really can't go wrong with a 7800X3D, but you could probably get a used 5800X3D plus motherboard relatively cheap. Both are excellent processors that will last a very long time. 9800X3D will probably release shortly, but it's unlikely to be a huge upgrade over the 7800X3D.
The pricing situation right now is awful, but it's unlikely to get better, so whatever. I would start by upgrading just the GPU, and if that fixes your problem, not bothering with the CPU for now.
 
Norstein Bekkler said:
Nah, I'm definitely having to dial lots of things back. I definitely want to upgrade, and I know there's new lines of cpu/gpu on the horizon. My question is more from a price standpoint, and how the new chips are going to affect market prices on current stuff. I haven't really paid attention to PC parts since I bought my last one, and I really have no idea what even would be a worthwhile upgrade at this point. From benchmarks it looks like 4070 and up is what I should be looking at, but idk.
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What do you do with your computer and what resolution/FPS are you targeting? What do you think is the bottleneck, in other words.
 
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