Hazbin Hotel / Helluva Boss Thread - Now a Griefing Thread

[Activelo]

Dunno if I'm restarting an argument here, but I waited until now to see the episode so, whatever. I disliked the latest episode because it really felt like taking the easy way out of Stolas's relationship with Stella.

I do not however believe it was done just to push a gay couple. I think cowardly is too strong of a word to use though, its more like. I dunno. Taking the easy route I guess. The show isn't ruined for me or anything, just cheapened.

Personally I also dislike the idea that Stolas and Blitzo actually knew each other as kids, but that's a personal bias I have against that kind of storytelling. I actually found child Stolas relatable since I was the same kind of kid who wanted to talk about nature books and bore everyone to death.

Overall though a lot of it just took me out of the whole story, which is surprising since S1E7 really took me into the show and was probably one of the more serious episodes they've done so far. I was kind of looking forward to this one after that specifically because it would expand on Stolas more, but now he feels like a less complex character.

It's not just Stolas. Like the others said, it felt like parts of the episode solely exist just to hammer in, "Yes, people, Stella is a bitch and deserved to be cheated on."

1. The picture of Stella abusing the dogs as a child.
2. Stolas crying to show they never liked each other to begin with, even though it was already all but outright said near the end of Loo Loo Land.
3. Stella naming the anniversary party, "Not Divorced" and later saying she's glad poor people aren't allowed in.
4. Her constantly talking shit to Stolas whenever he's in earshot.

We already got the message when she tried calling out a hitman on Stolas. IMO, they could've done away with 1 and 3. For 4, change it so that she only talked shit when she thought Stolas/Octavia couldn't hear her and otherwise tried to be civil with him like what Octavia implied in Loo Loo Land.

 

[Rakdos92]

but that would be low blow.

It's Hell. Everyone there is a piece of shit, and they all deserve to be there.

 

[L50LasPak]

It's Hell. Everyone there is a piece of shit, and they all deserve to be there.

The show's own logic kind of contradicts that since the demons are all born there and are apparently capable of being fairly reasonable or even good people, at least if Charlie is any indication.

This point is kind of ironic though since the Helluva Boss pilot seemed to imply the opposite, that every character was going to be a completely unrelenting piece of shit straight to the core, and the only time their merciful traits would appear is when they would come to the defense of a character they had some kind of alliance with. I do still wish we had gotten that show instead, but I realize that the overwhelming majority of people aren't capable of thinking in really mean-spirited terms like that on a constant basis and thus, it would be kind of hard to write.

 

[Rakdos92]

The show's own logic kind of contradicts that since the demons are all born there and are apparently capable of being fairly reasonable or even good people, at least if Charlie is any indication.

This point is kind of ironic though since the Helluva Boss pilot seemed to imply the opposite, that every character was going to be a completely unrelenting piece of shit straight to the core, and the only time their merciful traits would appear is when they would come to the defense of a character they had some kind of alliance with. I do still wish we had gotten that show instead, but I realize that the overwhelming majority of people aren't capable of thinking in really mean-spirited terms like that on a constant basis and thus, it would be kind of hard to write.

I imagine that the societies of Hell don't collapse only because God, much like Lolth from D&D, prevents them from doing so. Hell is supposed to be a punishment after all.
Who's to say this guy doesn't keep things together on a non-noticable level, so that the rings are always on the verge of collapse, where everyone is gleefully fighting and screwing over everyone else, but there is no climax of violence that leads to sinners and demons having a collective epiphany. Namely that this sucks and shouldn't continue.

 

[L50LasPak]

I imagine that the societies of Hell don't collapse only because God, much like Lolth from D&D, prevents them from doing so. Hell is supposed to be a punishment after all.
Who's to say this guy doesn't keep things together on a non-noticable level, so that the rings are always on the verge of collapse, where everyone is gleefully fighting and screwing over everyone else, but there is no climax of violence that leads to sinners and demons having a collective epiphany. Namely that this sucks and shouldn't continue.

I honestly believe that the perspective of demons who are born in sin and thus see it as a purely natural act and the absence of sin as deeply unnatural and disturbing would make a very compelling plotline, but that just doesn't seem to be within the show's scope anymore. The worst we've seen of the overwhelming majority of demons is just that they're really petty. There's not even that much casual violence in the show so far.

 

[InJailOutSoon]

Dunno if I'm restarting an argument here, but I waited until now to see the episode so, whatever. I disliked the latest episode because it really felt like taking the easy way out of Stolas's relationship with Stella.

I do not however believe it was done just to push a gay couple. I think cowardly is too strong of a word to use though, its more like. I dunno. Taking the easy route I guess. The show isn't ruined for me or anything, just cheapened.

Personally I also dislike the idea that Stolas and Blitzo actually knew each other as kids, but that's a personal bias I have against that kind of storytelling. I actually found child Stolas relatable since I was the same kind of kid who wanted to talk about nature books and bore everyone to death.

Overall though a lot of it just took me out of the whole story, which is surprising since S1E7 really took me into the show and was probably one of the more serious episodes they've done so far. I was kind of looking forward to this one after that specifically because it would expand on Stolas more, but now he feels like a less complex character.

It's not just Stolas. Like the others said, it felt like parts of the episode solely exist just to hammer in, "Yes, people, Stella is a bitch and deserved to be cheated on."

1. The picture of Stella abusing the dogs as a child.
2. Stolas crying to show they never liked each other to begin with, even though it was already all but outright said near the end of Loo Loo Land.
3. Stella naming the anniversary party, "Not Divorced" and later saying she's glad poor people aren't allowed in.
4. Her constantly talking shit to Stolas whenever he's in earshot.

We already got the message when she tried calling out a hitman on Stolas. IMO, they could've done away with 1 and 3. For 4, change it so that she only talked shit when she thought Stolas/Octavia couldn't hear her and otherwise tried to be civil with him like what Octavia implied in Loo Loo Land.

The whole thing comes off as a blunt object, hammering into your head as "this is what you should think". Instead of giving subtle bits of information overtime, it spoon-feeds you forcefully so that there's nothing to wonder anymore. All characters' dialogue doesn't sound like actual sentences a normal person would say. Even though Paimon was my favorite in the episode, I'll admit it might have been due to the fact that his dialogue consisted of "I say I'm good dad even though I'm not".
This is animation, where visuals are used to tell a story. We don't need the characters to tell us why a marriage fell apart, we've already seen the signs beforehand. We don't need Stolas to tell Stella that their marriage was arranged for a precautionary heir, because not only did we see that being the reason twice before in that episode, she herself already knows that. He might as well should have started the entire thing with "as you know".
This episode could have been used for Millie or Loona, who needed character development to be less one-dimensional. Hell, you could have had a flashback episode be entirely focused on Blitzo and his point of view as he is the main character of the show. But instead we got an episode on a side character with things we already knew, thing we didn't need to know in terms of the shows story, or things that would have been revealed much better later on and not all at the same time.

Spoiler: Concept art of Loo Loo Land Episode

I know I keep bringing up episode 2 to compare to the first episode of season 2 but it really does so much better with what it's trying to convey with its more serious moments hitting much better, the sole focus of the plot still being comedy, and the main cast of the show still being a part of the episode.
Besides that, I also wanted to bring up some concept art I found from the episode, showing that they originally weren't going to do "Stella is a bitch for the sake of Blitzo and Stolas getting together".

It appears that they were originally going to be at least a functional royal family before the affair happened. That they were both at least trying for the sake of their daughter.

 

[Operator Core]

The whole thing comes off as a blunt object, hammering into your head as "this is what you should think". Instead of giving subtle bits of information overtime, it spoon-feeds you forcefully so that there's nothing to wonder anymore. All characters' dialogue doesn't sound like actual sentences a normal person would say. Even though Paimon was my favorite in the episode, I'll admit it might have been due to the fact that his dialogue consisted of "I say I'm good dad even though I'm not".
This is animation, where visuals are used to tell a story. We don't need the characters to tell us why a marriage fell apart, we've already seen the signs beforehand. We don't need Stolas to tell Stella that their marriage was arranged for a precautionary heir, because not only did we see that being the reason twice before in that episode, she herself already knows that. He might as well should have started the entire thing with "as you know".
This episode could have been used for Millie or Loona, who needed character development to be less one-dimensional. Hell, you could have had a flashback episode be entirely focused on Blitzo and his point of view as he is the main character of the show. But instead we got an episode on a side character with things we already knew, thing we didn't need to know in terms of the shows story, or things that would have been revealed much better later on and not all at the same time.

Spoiler: Concept art of Loo Loo Land Episode

I know I keep bringing up episode 2 to compare to the first episode of season 2 but it really does so much better with what it's trying to convey with its more serious moments hitting much better, the sole focus of the plot still being comedy, and the main cast of the show still being a part of the episode.
Besides that, I also wanted to bring up some concept art I found from the episode, showing that they originally weren't going to do "Stella is a bitch for the sake of Blitzo and Stolas getting together". View attachment 3592551View attachment 3592552View attachment 3592554

View attachment 3592555 It appears that they were originally going to be at least a functional royal family before the affair happened. That they were both at least trying for the sake of their daughter.

From the old leaks we can infer that the season 1 finale was going to seemingly focus on Blitzo and Loona following Blitzo's rough time with Stolas. We also know, or at least infer, that S2E2 will seemingly focus on Octavia stealing the grimoire from I.M.P. to go to Hollywood (by accident), with there also being conflict between Blitzo and Loona in regards to Blitzo demanding Loona take her job seriously. (Link to the teaser for evidence: https://youtu.be/N9kLfufzdIA).

So at least it appears they are going to focus more on the other characters, as I concur that Loona and Millie desperately need more screen time and characterization. As it stand Millie is just some US southern girl who speaks funny and can either kill an eldritch Godzilla size monster singlehandedly or is knocked unconscious by one human with no effort, and Loona is the eternal goth girl with the soft side.

Off topic but considering how Imps appear to be the size of a standing cat, I'd say it'd be embarrassing to be killed by one. Though I assume that's why they are assassins and not soldiers.

Stella is just going to be a one-shot bitch who exists to defecate all over Stolas. That's fine, but slightly disappointing.

 

[The Fair Lady]

Seconding that Millie is in dire need of development, she's my least favorite character by far and her whole sthick is just "cute badass hick who's devoted to her husband." It got old fast. We really didn't need more "show don't tell" in regards to Stolas and Stella's relationship being awful.

 

[keeptheshitshowgoing]

I would like to posit this, since Hazbin hotel has been worryingly abandoned in favor of Helluva boss.

Helluva boss has become Hazbin hotel (Drama, character focused, storylines)
the way things are going, and given most of the redesigns amount to their pilot design, but red, Hazbin Hotel may have become Helluva Boss.

Tl;Dr I think the shows tones have swapped. And that definitely isn't going to end well.

 

[InJailOutSoon]

I feel like I'm fucking Columbo everytime I post something. Might as well say "just one more thing" lol.
Anyway, I swear *doubt* this will be the last time I bring up previous episodes to support my opinion on the demon show. (Probably not but I'll put this under spoiler if no one cares to read it)

Spoiler: Stella could have been a manipulative abuser if they changed one scene

If they really wanted to show how bad Stella was, why didn't they use this concept art for the end of episode 5?

This shows Stella in a much darker light as someone who is pulling the strings behind Stolas' assination by Striker. Stolas is close to his daughter and talking to her, while Stella is far away from both of them. She's much more intimidating and vile in this shot, and we see much more clearly that her family doesn't mean much to her. This version of Stella seems more villainous than well...

Yeah...this version is definitely the more comedic of the two. Notice that Stella is much more closer to her family than in the concept art. She's literally screaming her head off about how much she wants Stolas dead right in front of his face and he...doesn't even notice. He's too busy reading his book. (By the way, the book he's reading is called "Imps in the Sheets". Honestly I can see now why Stella asked if he wanted to fuck their butler too.) Also noticed that now he is not engaging with Octavia, showing that him and Stella are too caught up in their own issues and emotions to pay attention to their daughter.
The concept art would have worked way better so show Stella being a manipulative abuser instead of an angry bitch. She doesn't look like someone who has been calculating her every move to make Stolas' life miserable...at most, she looks like someone who is unhinged and is acting out how she feels without thinking ahead.

Hopefully I can stop overanalyzing these characters now, but I'm sure some thought later will pop in my head. Right now, I want to look at people in the "fandom" who get all defensive if you criticize anything from the new episode since their responses in my opinion are hilarious.

 

[Racist Trash]

View attachment 3597742

Just noticed that despite being at the dinner table and the other two eating Stella isn't she is literally only sitting there to shout about Stolas' assassination right in-front of him.

 

[Operator Core]

I feel like I'm fucking Columbo everytime I post something. Might as well say "just one more thing" lol.
Anyway, I swear *doubt* this will be the last time I bring up previous episodes to support my opinion on the demon show. (Probably not but I'll put this under spoiler if no one cares to read it)

Spoiler: Stella could have been a manipulative abuser if they changed one scene

If they really wanted to show how bad Stella was, why didn't they use this concept art for the end of episode 5?
View attachment 3597719
This shows Stella in a much darker light as someone who is pulling the strings behind Stolas' assination by Striker. Stolas is close to his daughter and talking to her, while Stella is far away from both of them. She's much more intimidating and vile in this shot, and we see much more clearly that her family doesn't mean much to her. This version of Stella seems more villainous than well...
View attachment 3597742
Yeah...this version is definitely the more comedic of the two. Notice that Stella is much more closer to her family than in the concept art. She's literally screaming her head off about how much she wants Stolas dead right in front of his face and he...doesn't even notice. He's too busy reading his book. (By the way, the book he's reading is called "Imps in the Sheets". Honestly I can see now why Stella asked if he wanted to fuck their butler too.) Also noticed that now he is not engaging with Octavia, showing that him and Stella are too caught up in their own issues and emotions to pay attention to their daughter.
The concept art would have worked way better so show Stella being a manipulative abuser instead of an angry bitch. She doesn't look like someone who has been calculating her every move to make Stolas' life miserable...at most, she looks like someone who is unhinged and is acting out how she feels without thinking ahead.

Hopefully I can stop overanalyzing these characters now, but I'm sure some thought later will pop in my head. Right now, I want to look at people in the "fandom" who get all defensive if you criticize anything from the new episode since their responses in my opinion are hilarious.

Looks like they just wanted to hype up the comedic angle of that scene, with her screaming and scheming so overtly only to discover that she is literally sitting twenty centimetres away from Stolas while he is utterly ignorant of what is going on.

Hell, I recall some people using that scene as an argument as to Stolas being so immersed in his own fantasy that he's ignoring his wife in plain view.

I'm not a writer, I'd be shit at it, so my opinions are equally terrible. But I suspect that Viv and the writers/whoever lean far more into the comedy aspect whenever they can. So whereas a more "serious" show would've likely used the storyboard angle to better (and more effectively) showcase how Stella does not care about Stolas/Octavia, however the "comedic" show used the scene we got because it was funny.

 

[L50LasPak]

I would like to posit this, since Hazbin hotel has been worryingly abandoned in favor of Helluva boss.

Helluva boss has become Hazbin hotel (Drama, character focused, storylines)
the way things are going, and given most of the redesigns amount to their pilot design, but red, Hazbin Hotel may have become Helluva Boss.

Tl;Dr I think the shows tones have swapped. And that definitely isn't going to end well.

There's a theory going around, I may have actually gotten it from this thread.

Hazbin Hotel was planned out to be the character drama while Helluva Boss was going to be the wacky, miserable, vulgar comedy full of fart jokes and irredeemable characters. The theory goes though that whatever network picked up Hazbin Hotel wants something more in line with modern cynical humor, and basically demanded that the drama stuff be dialed back in favor of the vulgar humor and fart jokes. On the pretense that wacky, random cynical comedy is more of a safe bet than a serious drama series about a spider people want to fuck. And apparently that's the reason for the swap.

If this is true it doesn't necessarily mean Hazbin Hotel is going to be better or worse, but the final product is probably going to be really different than what people were expecting.

None of this is confirmed by the way, its just what people have been speculating on.

 

[InJailOutSoon]

Looks like they just wanted to hype up the comedic angle of that scene, with her screaming and scheming so overtly only to discover that she is literally sitting twenty centimetres away from Stolas while he is utterly ignorant of what is going on.

Hell, I recall some people using that scene as an argument as to Stolas being so immersed in his own fantasy that he's ignoring his wife in plain view.

I'm not a writer, I'd be shit at it, so my opinions are equally terrible. But I suspect that Viv and the writers/whoever lean far more into the comedy aspect whenever they can. So whereas a more "serious" show would've likely used the storyboard angle to better (and more effectively) showcase how Stella does not care about Stolas/Octavia, however the "comedic" show used the scene we got because it was funny.

Oh yeah, I totally agree. I'm just saying that if they went with the concept art I'm sure not that many people would be confused with how Stella is in season 2.
Trying to write a show based off dark humor while also being serious can be difficult. Something that comes across as funny but then revealed to be something serious now or later can not only confused the audience but leave a bitter aftertaste. It's kind of like in Steven Universe Future where its revealed he's suffering from ptsd from all the trauma beforehand, even though when we saw those events they came across as comedic.
In the end, don't blame your audience if they interpret something wrong because you didn't give enough information to start with or portrayed the information incorrectly.

 

[DankSmoker]

The lore and the musical numbers are the least appealing aspects of the show and that's all this premiere was. Hope the next episode is a self-contained story without too much fag shenanigans.

 

[keeptheshitshowgoing]

I would also like to add it's freaky how much a lot of the fans are outright worshipping the retcons they've done to the show, it's like it's a cult or something-

 

[AnOminous]

The lore and the musical numbers are the least appealing aspects of the show and that's all this premiere was. Hope the next episode is a self-contained story without too much fag shenanigans.

I like both of those though.

 

[L50LasPak]

The musical numbers are very strongly hit or miss for me. I'm not the kind of guy who likes musical numbers much, but I also don't get too pissed off if a musical number pops up in the middle of something I'm watching either. I've been reasonably impressed by some of the numbers, like Its Okay or of course the big one at the end of S1E7, but for instance the one that showed up in the latest episode felt really low energy, especially for a scene that should have been a big deal for Stolas, regardless of how his relationship with Stella has been characterized.

On a meta level I also think its funny to lump the desire to break out into song in with all the other nasty instincts people in Hell have like murder, theft, sex, drug use, etc since its basically characterizing musicfags as impulsive weirdos, but I'm probably the only person who sees it that way.

The show's lore is in a weird spot right now because Hazbin Hotel is supposed to be the one more steeped in lore. Charlie is part of Hell's ruling class, and just by the basic rules of design and storytelling you have to weave a lot of lore into that kind of character's life since they have to know reasonably well both the rules of their society and its flaws (or some of them anyway). Stolas might as well be idle rich since he doesn't appear to do anything important, while all the other characters in HB are low level dregs. Helluva Boss was designed to not need to explore all of that lore, it was supposed to piggyback on the stuff Hazbin Hotel established. But since Hazbin is still in production limbo Helluva Boss finds itself needing to quickly explain things viewers are otherwise not going to be familiar with.

Short version is the lore in Helluva Boss is something of a problem because its awkward and kind of messy. I like the lore, but I agree its presentation needs to be tightened up. Not everyone has the patience for tedious world-building like I do.

 

[The Fair Lady]

Viv is obsessed with musicals and has made it clear that there's going to be one song per episode, at least in Helluva, so if you can't deal with that then you should seriously stop watching. I'm personally not a huge musical person but I've found that most of Helluva's (and Hazbin's) songs are pretty good and catchy, my favorite thus far being "House of Asmodeus"; this shit gets stuck in my head constantly, I'm not exaggerating. I really enjoyed "Owl in a Cage", as melodramatic as it was. Gave me big Nightmare Before Christmas vibes.

I'm a fan of the lore as well but it's definitely getting a little muddled now.

 

[Operator Core]

Viv is obsessed with musicals and has made it clear that there's going to be one song per episode, at least in Helluva, so if you can't deal with that then you should seriously stop watching. I'm personally not a huge musical person but I've found that most of Helluva's (and Hazbin's) songs are pretty good and catchy, my favorite thus far being "House of Asmodeus"; this shit gets stuck in my head constantly, I'm not exaggerating. I really enjoyed "Owl in a Cage", as melodramatic as it was. Gave me big Nightmare Before Christmas vibes.

I'm a fan of the lore as well but it's definitely getting a little muddled now.

At first I was critical of the latest musical number (Stolas solo singing) since I felt the VA was constantly losing his pitch and voice, but a combination of re-watching it, and also contextualising that the VA was apparently also very emotionally sad when he sung the song made me appreciate it a lot. Personally there hasn't been a song I've not enjoyed in the show thus far.

I think the lore of the show is fine as it stands and so long as you take it at face value. The situation rapidly becomes insane if you try to account for the "real world" lore from whatever religious text you are drawing from.

It can be nice to read on the inspirations for the characters/settings from the source. But if you are not careful it will feel extremely overwhelming and hard to follow.