Hazbin Hotel / Helluva Boss Thread - Now a Griefing Thread

[Kid Named Rocket]

 

[Yeshuash]

In fact, if you fail to baptize them and they die soon after birth, they go to Hell.

That is not part of Christianity (unless we are talking about some splinter of shot of it) and was mostly a superstition that came up in back in the time of the Renaissance that was never actually integrated into doctrine.
Mainstream Christianity assumes a child at birth is innocent and Baptism is a symbolical introduction to the local Christian community.

This actually isn't the mainstream Christian belief. Only Catholics believe that unbaptized babies go to Limbo, not hell, but that's non-biblical and rejected by non-Catholics. Most non-Catholics believe that babies, toddlers, fetuses and those children too young to understand right from wrong are in an "age of innocence" and go to heaven instead because of how innocent they are and that they are literally incapable of choosing to follow Christ. Many hold that this is why Jesus said "unless you are like these [children], you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven". King David was pretty sure that he would see his dead child with Bathsheba in Heaven as well. The belief is that there is an "age of accountability" after which children will be held accountable for their actions and absolutely will go to hell if they do not repent. But this point is one that is very much a grey area, as the Bible doesn't specifically say one way or another, so very few Christians are dogmatic on the subject. For more info on this subject, this page has good information.

But the Child murders pointed out by @Smity Werbenjagermanjensen and @Guysho are absolutely above any age of accountability and will absolutely go to hell if they do not repent and turn to Christ.

You are misunderstanding Christianity with Dante's Divine Comedy. There is no Limbo in Christianity and as a Catholic I can assure you we don't assume unbaptized children go to hell or some other afterlife holding cell.

 

[Sparkling Yuzu]

The issue for HH is that Viv ignores the most important aspect of Christian theology and has replaced it with...nothing

Charlie is taking Jesus' role.

God it never occured to me, but I truly hate St. Peter's design. WHERE IS HIS NOSE???

He looks like those wacky waving inflatable balloon guys.

It's baffling that Vaggie would keep the name that Adam gave her as well, Adam helped cut out her eye and wings, then left her for dead. Did she seriously not have a name before she met Adam?

Adam named all the creatures in the bible so I guess it's inspired by that.

The fact that Charlie didn't turn that around to strengthen her argument by pointing out that he's clearly reached a stage where he would be helped by being removed from the constant peer pressure and temptation of hell proves to me she is actually, genuinely retarded.

That's why she draws crayon pictures for a presentation instead of essays.

 

[Fireman Sam]

I remember watching the pilot years ago and thinking "How does a show that isn't even out yet have such a big fanbase?" Now it's out I gave it a shot.

Spoiler: My inane ramblings of the show

The individual episodes are bitesized enough to digest which is good. This is not something I can watch for too long without needing a break.
I noticed, like many others, that whole thing has big flaws with the pacing. There are so many characters and subplots but only 8 episodes to do it all in. Even at episode 6 they keep adding characters who serve a singular purpose.
I said to myself "if there's no payoffs now, they're not going to stick the landing". There were some reveals, like Vaggie being one of the angel exterminators But they've left it so late now that I bet they'll have that resolved in a quarter of episode 7. They should have had this revealed somewhat earlier, it would have given the dynamic between her and Charlie a bit more weight.

So the premise is pretty simple to follow. Hell is oppressed by angels and once a year they go down to kill as many as they can. This is excused as overpopulation control but it's revealed quickly that they do it for the lulz and to keep Hell from rising up. But now one of their angels, beings previously thought unkillable, has been discovered dead so they are going to finish the job in 6 months and destroy fucking everything.

The main character, Charlie is a naive and happy go lucky girl with a big dream! She's also an emotionally stunted wreck with daddy issues (and honestly this gets to be too much sometimes) but she has a pure heart and believes sinners can be redeemed and go to Heaven. And so rises the Hazbin Hotel.
There's a whacky bunch of characters and antics ensue. But the show HEAVILY implies the pilot is canon and you must watch it as a kind of true episode 1 to really follow along. I had to go back to watch the pilot because I was legit confused at just how fast and sloppily everything was being set up. And honestly the pilot sets up the premise so much better.

It seems they were just unable to cut characters and ideas, and the main story suffers for it as not enough time is put in actually setting up the world and the rules.
In the pilot there's a whole scene with the news reporters. In the show they appear for 10 seconds as a gag. I was lead to believe for a moment that they were going to be relevant later because of how much screentime they had in the pilot... I guess this is an example of cutting something out... but they gave Katie Killjoy more personality and catty charm than some of the main characters for the show. But that's honestly a nitpick compared to some of the issues this show has.

A good rule of thumb is to cut out anything that doesn't move the plot along or reveal something meaningful about the world or characters. This is as important as creating engaging plot and characters in the first place. And Hazbin has a huge problem with trying to cram in way too much in 8 episodes, leaving the good shit undercooked and instead filling the story with too much padding, characters and rushed arcs for characters that appear once or twice. There's no breathing room, the pacing is fucked, it doesn't know what direction it wants to go and I think if they were greenlit for more seasons they wouldn't feel the need to cram everything in at once. I could be wrong, but reading through this thread and all the whacky shit that has transpired leads me to doubt this show's longevity.
But this post is sperging about this show in particular. I wanted to give it a fair shake before I jumped in.

So a clear fan favourite is Alistor who was really one of the only characters I enjoyed because he's not just an open book, he's one of the only true mysteries of the show and I think his aesthetic is neat. But that gets unfortunately overshadowed because this show does something I cannot fucking stand.

There's zero fucking emotional setup and it consistantly acts like it deserves all these touching moments. I care not for any of these characters because they are not set up. Many barely get time to introduce themselves before they are thrust into a music number explaining their motives, fears, doubts, blah blah.

Vaggie's song was particularly mindnumbing because it's some duet with someone I assume is her mom who has only appeared in that sole episode and turns out she killed one of the angels. You'd assume that's a pretty important point but I sat there completely numb to whatever the show was trying to get at because there was really zero setup to the characters in question. Didn't help that the VA for that one bitch just cannot sing and the VA for Vaggie sounds like a teenage boy. The voice acting is mostly servicable but there's a lot of inconsistancy there.

Some songs are better than others and I'm stickler for musical motifs that get referenced later on. Adam's Hell is Forever song was pretty catchy. And just in the most recent episode there's a bit where the same piece is played but it's Charlie singing it. It's a nice setup and payoff.

And what's the fucking deal with Heaven? I kind of liked Adam, he's a unbearble cunt and maybe they tried too hard to make him an asshole but he's clearly an antagonist. But when all the residents in Hell are pretty much detestable and there's been absolutely no support for the idea of redemption. It makes me wonder if the whole "heaven is the real bad guys" shtick is just misplaced in their own show.
Fag Spider gets a mediocre song where he gets abused by his boss (and apparently Twitter didn't like that) and after the little ditty about being comfortable about being a loser, apparently he's just... Better? He's well on his way to redemption now? His fragile ego and mask is shattered and he can stop sucking dicks on the side and snorting Hell crack and is a-okay? Did all this shit happen off screen or something?

Also the daddy issue shit... It's like the writers can only think of one actual character flaw and instead makes every character an archetype of something. But ooooo they're all deeply flawed and most have daddy issues in some form. Fuck man I even watched Helluva Boss and that was a show without Amazon bigwigs trying to tardwrangle the writers. It's fucking awful with the preachy emotionally stunted bullshit. It went from a goofy assassin story to a very gay melodramatic love story which just makes it weak.
Hazbin kept mostly away from such faggotry but Angeldust's creepy rapey music video was supposedly done by someone with a rape fetish so I don't really know what to think.

This is where it falls in on itself. The show had some neat ideas, but the pacing is all over the place so it lacks emotional weight to for anything relevant and has way too much going on for its runtime. It's a confused mess and the biggest kicker to me, the one plothole that reveals more about the writer's lack of attention is this.

What happens to people who die in hell? Why should we care what happens to people in hell when it is never even explained, even subtly, that there's any consequences for death in this universe. Do they just vanish into nothing? That's probably a better fate than many of Hell's residents have already. Is there a double-hell? What's the deal here?

It wouldn't matter too much if it's just "you die, that's it." But given the setting, it opens a big hole in the world shattering stakes that already fuel the conflict in the show. The fact that they even bring this up IN THE PILOT as a joke and it's never explained leads me to think that they never really figured it out. Maybe it'll be explained in the last episode. But I don't think this show has the balls to kill off any meaningful characters.

The concept of heaven and hell are so detatched from anything biblical that it may as well be called some generic fantasy realms instead. On one hand this works to the show's benefit and it's good to allow pure creativity. Some characters in the show do look very original. It ultimately undermines itself by just going "it's heaven and hell. But there's a twist! Hell is actually the good guys here! But some people in Heaven are bad!"
How original.

I didn't even touch on the "comedy" aspect. It doesn't need much explaining. It's a 13 year old's idea of funny and edgy where every character swears like a sailor and half the jokes are a about sex. I will admit the joke with Sir Pentious buying rounds for everyone at the club as a cop out for wanting to buy a drink for someone he likes leading to the one sex joke that got me by surprise... I'll admit that actually earned a chuckle from me. Probably because I wasn't expecting an actual set up and pay off joke. Everything else is just gaudy dialogue painted to be whacky or rude. Hahaha the horny spider says vagina instead of Vaggie and wow turns out that's what her name was all along!
All in all it's not that smart.

Also what's with all the furry background characters? Was one of the crowdfunding incentives to have a character designed for you? We all know about furfags and their suspiciously deep pockets.

TLDR: I gave the show a fair shake, but I can't help but notice the pacing flaws and general plotholes. Hazbin Hotel has garnered a fanbase of teenage Twitter users so really the drama is the true entertainment here for me.

 

[Roger Dennis]

I saw episode five. Lucifer, Satan himself, is a loser. Lol. Alastor goes berserk and vores some guys, no doubt to the delight of fetishists watching this.l

I really have nothing else to say about this. It was a tour, Alastor cussed, Charlie and her father love each other, the end.

Also, Lucifer says that he can’t go to Heaven. But doesn’t the Book of Job say otherwise? He literally talks to God there.

 

[AnOminous]

Also, Lucifer says that he can’t go to Heaven. But doesn’t the Book of Job say otherwise? He literally talks to God there.

Old Testament God and the Adversary really aren't the same as in the New Testament. If anything, they're asshole buddies. The Devil is more of a prosecuting attorney than an ultimate evil.

 

[Escaped Abortion]

That is not part of Christianity (unless we are talking about some splinter of shot of it) and was mostly a superstition that came up in back in the time of the Renaissance that was never actually integrated into doctrine.
Mainstream Christianity assumes a child at birth is innocent and Baptism is a symbolical introduction to the local Christian community.

No, what you are referring to is a product of the Pelagian heresy and predates the Renaissance by 800 years. It was a fear and a debate during early middle age periods.

The traditional belief of Christianity is that none of us are innocent enough for God through our own actions, we are all tainted by original sin. There is no salvation except through Christ and his sacrifice, which is why it was so important to mark your children as part of his flock as soon as possible. That belief was too harsh and was causing problems, so it was softened in practice, but the text of the Bible still reflects man's nature as born fallen and deserving of Hell, and only getting a pass through being part of the Jesus club. Your parents still had to enroll you and then you were given extra leeway until you reached the age of reason.

To another human, a baby appears innocent, but in the eyes of God it still carries the stain of original sin and the sinful natural of all humans, and that is why rushing for a slap dash baptism or other ritual of membership was so important for so long. You need to get that baby covered by the sacrifice of Jesus. Your belief is what is against traditional teachings, but as the Catholic Church is allowed to announce patch notes, it's not wrong for this current era. Doesn't change the theory of the past, though, and still makes them a valid point to work from for fiction.

Of course, you can just not believe in any of this and just take it for fairytales we choose to comfort ourselves with. We softened a lot of our traditional fairytales for modern sensibilities and fairness, too. If it changes slow enough, then we don't even particularly notice.

Just because you, as a Modern Catholic find it unthinkable for unbaptized babies to go to Hell, doesn't undo the centuries that was a real concern in Christianity that had to be modified. Things continue to change, we've got the Pope now saying Gays are actually okay, but we can't call their partnerships marriage, but it's still cool to bless that partnership. That would have been unimaginable only a Pope or two back. Historically too, Lent rules were far stricter, but those were relaxed as well. Doesn't mean the stricter rules never existed or that people didn't live under them.

 

[AnOminous]

Your belief is what is against traditional teachings, but as the Catholic Church is allowed to announce patch notes, it's not wrong for this current era.

It's what I was taught, although as "patch notes" go, there's this:
"THE HOPE OF SALVATION FOR INFANTS WHO DIE WITHOUT BEING BAPTISED*"

https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070419_un-baptised-infants_en.html

That's from 2007 and it's not ex cathedra so it is not an infallible statement of doctrine.

That said, I can't really believe in an omnibenevolent deity that bases salvation on whether a helpless infant had the right magical incantation said over it.

 

[smile.jpg]

I saw episode five. Lucifer, Satan himself, is a loser. Lol. Alastor goes berserk and vores some guys, no doubt to the delight of fetishists watching this.l

I really have nothing else to say about this. It was a tour, Alastor cussed, Charlie and her father love each other, the end.

Also, Lucifer says that he can’t go to Heaven. But doesn’t the Book of Job say otherwise? He literally talks to God there.

Revelations 12:7-9 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Revelations 20:1-3 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

Satan as the ruler of Hell is something Milton made up and is not christian canon. Hazbin is probably taking more inspiration from that and The Divine Comedy than the christian bible. The Satan in the book of Job is called "ha-satan" in the original hebrew text, this translates to "the adversary" and he is not necessarily the devil or the same satan.

 

[Yeshuash]

It's what I was taught, although as "patch notes" go, there's this:
"THE HOPE OF SALVATION FOR INFANTS WHO DIE WITHOUT BEING BAPTISED*"

https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070419_un-baptised-infants_en.html

That's from 2007 and it's not ex cathedra so it is not an infallible statement of doctrine.

That said, I can't really believe in an omnibenevolent deity that bases salvation on whether a helpless infant had the right magical incantation said over it.

Like you said it's not doctrine and is mostly a debate topic between theologians. And again, at least as a Catholic I can assure you we don't claim God will toss you to hell because you where not sprinkled with water and a priest went "Ooga Booga" over you. Baptism is mainly a ritual of introduction into a community and it's not a free ticket to paradise as some might claim.

 

[Prophetic Spirit]

@Roger Dennis
Man, please. Stop being so desilusional with this piece of shit called "work". Really. I'm begging you for your mental health.

 

[Roger Dennis]

@Roger Dennis
Man, please. Stop being so desilusional with this piece of shit called "work". Really. I'm begging you for your mental health.

Sorry. Not really sure how I’m being “desilusional” with this fiction or how it’s affecting my mental health when everyone else here is pretty much making similar comments to mine, but I’ll take your word for it, I guess.

 

[A Grey Cat]

No it isn't, while there a few sects that make alcohol consumption forbidden in core Christianity only gluttonous consumption of alcohol is considered sinful.

Ergo vivians loophole as too why queen bee isn't a fat chubby tub of goo and why the ring of gluttony isn't all you eat buffets full of lardos on mobility scooters like this was the Darlene love boss fight in dead rising 3.

Vaggie is actually evil for not exterminating that child (if true). Since this is hell, instead of being mercy-killed that child would probably go on to be raped and cannibalised by their fellow citizens the moment the exterminators went back to heaven...

Why are the exterminations such a big deal again? Hell sucks and i imagine a lot of people would just volunteer to perma die.

And again, so far we haven't really seen many normal enough people willing to try to repent while under the hotels protection, a literal safe haven from all the shit in hell. All the sinners weve seen so far are genuinely quite awful, so im not rooting for any of these bitches to even get to heaven or not be sniped aside from the precious egg lord.
Looking at hell, it seems like all normal average people either go to heaven or go somewhere else entirely. Except that one counselor dude in hb idk what he did but he seems to be a massive outlier.

Yeah especially since he was murdered by someone he thought he could trust. Like I get these shows aren't being too friendly with each other at the moment cause vivian doesn't know of this is a "making fiends or powerpuff girls situation." Where not only can she be fired and replaced from her own show but she no longer has the ip rights to it either. But why DOESN'T Charlie try recruiting people like say those murdered in theor prime? Or atheists who didn't belive in heaven or hell up to the moment they died? I'm sure if an atheist learned the mumbo-jumbo he mocked in life turned out to be real after all he'd gladly take up the chance to take it all back and swear undying loyalty to heaven.

 

[ReceiveAndAsk]

Wait, so if sinners respawn when killed, what's even the point of exterminations?

 

[The Fair Lady]

Wait, so if sinners respawn when killed, what's even the point of exterminations?

They die permanently if killed by angelic weapons, IIRC.

 

[Shamino]

This show defo needs a competent editor as much as It requires a musical on every episode.

 

[Lord of the Large Pants]

Okay, so... watched 5 and 6. I actually like them quite a bit more than the first 4. I maintain that Viv needs to be contractually limited to one musical number be episode. Both the end of episode ones here just feel shoved in for no reason, like they had a quota to meet or omething.

I love Alastor and I don't care what anyone says. Lucifer being kind of a loser is an interesting angle. I like it.

Who holds Alastor's chain? I'm guess maybe someone in heaven using his as an agent. Adam isn't smart enough, so maybe Sera? Or maybe someone we haven't met yet.

I enjoy the internal politics of heaven. I like the idea of there being different factions, with their own secrets and lies. I really don't care about Vaggie being Fallen. It seem like such a meaningless twist. Sir Pentious hitting on Cherry was hilarious, and also... maybe a little too familiar for me, but never mind.

That said, here's my shitty fanfiction rewrite, because for some reason I'm doing that now.

Spoiler: Autism

First, get rid of Adam. Adam is stupid. He doesn't work as a character. Either remove him or give him a completely different role.

Now. I don't actually dislike Sera and the... dwarf angel. But if you're going to have two angels running heaven, why not Michael and Gabriel? Instead of Lucifer having been second to God, they originally formed a sort of triumverate.

Michael would be charged with the protection of humanity. From nature, from disease, from Satan (who, in Hazbin, is not the same person as Lucifer). From whatever. Lucifer would be charged with the growth of humanity so they could eventually become great, and worthy of the tree of knowledge. Gabriel would be a sort of general administrator and moderating voice.

But then Adam gives a command to Lilith, and Lilith disobeys it. Adam is just acting out ignorance, he doesn't understand why what he's doing is wrong.. Lilith, on the other hand, is starting to show glimmers of understanding right and wrong. Lucifer decides that humanity isn't progressing fast enough. They shouldn't be stuck in this stage for so long. He takes his concerns to Gabriel and Michael, who tell him to be patient. But Lucifer goes rogue. He presents humans with the fruit, who eat it. Now, humanity has a knowledge they weren't ready for. Even though Lucifer was acting with relatively good intentions, he done goofed. Humans have the knowledge of good and evil, but not the maturity to handle it, and become monsters. For fucking up everything, Lucifer is cast into hell. He's right about humans being horrible, but it's his own fault and he won't even own up to it.

Gabriel is crushed, but decides to do his best to get the project back on track. Michael, on the other hand, takes this as a personal affront. Betrayed by his comrade, and failing in his duty to protect humanity. If earth has fallen, heaven has to be protected at ANY cost. If that means a little genocide, so be it. Without Lucifer to act as a counterbalance to Michael, he becomes obssessed with justice and duty, forgetting about mercy. And Gabriel starts to fall under that influence as well. With Gabriel's reluctant approval, Michael forms the exorcists without Adam's involvement. Michael was made for war, and dammit, he WILL have his war.

It could end with Michael repenting and remembering the value of mercy, or even having him switch places with Lucifer in hell. Or something like that.

 

[Roger Dennis]

(Edited because I could be less of an autist about this.)

I watched episode six. I’m finally caught up and can take a break from this show.

Snake boi’s obvious crush on the British cyclops bomber was adorable. I felt bad for him when he tried to make conversation with her by buying drinks for literally everyone and she just ignored him. And then he gets raped.

Angel stands up to his boss/pimp and is all like, "HNNG, these are my friends and I’m your spider fag only when I’m in your studio" and then he gets bitch-slapped. And everyone’s like, "Good job Angie!!" despite the whole confrontation lasting, like, not even a minute. Props to Viv for at least not fetishizing the abuse in this episode, though.

Vaggie gets exposed as an angel. Charlie is shocked. But given that I already knew the twist, I didn’t give a shit. And even if I somehow didn’t know the twist, I still wouldn’t have cared.

Also, there’s something about the angels being scared shitless of the damned uprising. Okay, what uprising? They’re literally fucking and drinking and not doing anything productive with their lives. Idiots.

 

[AnOminous]

Like you said it's not doctrine and is mostly a debate topic between theologians. And again, at least as a Catholic I can assure you we don't claim God will toss you to hell because you where not sprinkled with water and a priest went "Ooga Booga" over you.

Hey I'm just saying what the nuns told me. In Catholic school. Although it was said it was the nicer part.

 

[joebobmurphy]

I watched the pilot when it came out and decided to give the series proper a try after all the hubbub and controversy. Well, I love it. I especially love the music. Respectless and Hell is Forever are two of my favorites.

I don't really have strong feelings on the behind the scenes stuff but I do wonder why people have decided that it's a big deal. Underpaid animators? Weird porn habits? Nepotism? The creator having twitter meltdowns? Bro, that's literally every animation studio; eastern and western. I know that's a whataboutism, but I do wonder why people have decided that it suddenly matters when this little indie studio has issues that much richer studios have in spades. I'd be willing to bet a number of said critics then go right back to watching Rick and Morty so that Dan Harmon can have even more c-notes to wipe his greasy ass with after a long day of sexually harassing his underlings.