Hazbin Hotel / Helluva Boss Thread - Now a Griefing Thread

[didelphigina]

I love the Cherubs.

I think most of us can agree we do. A shame they're only just comedic relief characters only added back because Viv wanted to remind the audience that she's still aware of their existence. Would've been interesting to see their constant attempts at trying to get back to Heaven, breaking every law that The Ten Commandments need to expand on and still feeling optimistic that they'll get back home. Or, better yet, them becoming fallen angels and having to cope with it. That'd make the show really interesting by then.

 

[InJailOutSoon]

All of the stuff about the Vees not acting their age has reminded me of Vivzie apparently comparing Valentino to Karen from Mean Girls and fucking Bubbles from the Powerpuff Girls. Or maybe she liked tweets about that, I don’t fucking remember and I don’t feel like digging. Least I’ve got is this.
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If that one bit is true, way to disrespect your fucking cat by making a rapist inspired by him.

That is true. I remember a patreon post where she draws her cat and says rip. Cat's name is Valentino. It's probably why she wants to keep the character as a more goofy villain instead of actually threatening.

Her two personalities are British and being loud and presentable. That's it.

Oh and Sir Pentious' love for some reason. A ship more useless and unnecessary than Stolitz, and that's saying a lot. Though, wouldn't call it a canon one since I don't think Cherri Bomb reciprocated the feelings back.

She's actually Australian, but you are pretty much right about everything else.

funny you should say that.....
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This incarnation of the character was actually supposed to be Angel Dust's DAUGHTER, believe it or not. Another interesting concept that's rife with good story ideas that Vivienne just tossed to the wayside for the sake of her low-stakes, no-effort, rushed story.

That's right...I forgot she was supposed to be an angel too back then.

 

[ReceiveAndAsk]

Vivienne just tossed to the wayside for the sake of her low-stakes, no-effort, rushed story.

Let me correct you.

Vivienne just tossed to the wayside for the sake of gay fujoshi titillation.

 

[Vyse Inglebard]

Let me correct you.

porque no los dos?

 

[ReceiveAndAsk]

porque no los dos?

Sure, why not. They're not mutually exclusive.

 

[Hammersmith]

I stumbled upon this thread, which has some opinions on Stella. I don't quite know much about her character, so I can't say much. Are they correct?

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Spoiler: Full Thread

 

[Grand Duke Snowfall]

That is true. I remember a patreon post where she draws her cat and says rip. Cat's name is Valentino. It's probably why she wants to keep the character as a more goofy villain instead of actually threatening.

Fucking hell, Viv. I can understand naming one of your characters as a legacy thing, but maybe DON’T give it to the rapist? Hell, when you put it like that, it might not be a great idea to give it to a villain at all unless they’re supposed to be a goofball (ie Fawful) or you were already planning to redeem them, if you’re gonna end up writing them that awfully.

 

[Vyse Inglebard]

I stumbled upon this thread, which has some opinions on Stella. I don't quite know much about her character, so I can't say much. Are they correct?
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Once again, a braindead fujoshi misses the fucking point on why people are criticizing the potrayal of Stella. It's not the fact that Stella is abusive - it's the fact that Stolas, who is ALSO abusive, is given nowhere near the same scrutiny. And any scrutiny he DOES get is immediately handwaved away with "B-B-B-BUT HE WOVES BLITZO (AND ALSO OCTAVIA DEEP DOWN), UWU!" Meanwhile, Stella is 100% evil, no ifs ands or buts. Never mind the fact that based on the evidence we saw, Stella did try to make the marriage work at one point. Never mind the picture of all 3 of them at Loo Loo Land, clearly smiling and happy. Wouldn't want any of that pesky nuance getting in the way of rubbing our clits, would we?

 

[didelphigina]

Once again, a braindead fujoshi misses the fucking point on why people are criticizing the potrayal of Stella. It's not the fact that Stella is abusive - it's the fact that Stolas, who is ALSO abusive, is given nowhere near the same scrutiny. And any scrutiny he DOES get is immediately handwaved away with "B-B-B-BUT HE WOVES BLITZO (AND ALSO OCTAVIA DEEP DOWN), UWU!" Meanwhile, Stella is 100% evil, no ifs ands or buts. Never mind the fact that based on the evidence we saw, Stella did try to make the marriage work at one point. Never mind the picture of all 3 of them at Loo Loo Land, clearly smiling and happy. Wouldn't want any of that pesky nuance getting in the way of rubbing our clits, would we?

Remember, Viv said he's like this because he can't control his fee-fees and his head's all over the place! Sympathize the male abuser but antagonize the mess out of the female one? That's a new one to see for sure.

I stumbled upon this thread, which has some opinions on Stella. I don't quite know much about her character, so I can't say much. Are they correct?
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Alright, then. Let's break this down.

First Image - My guy, she's being a raging psychopath because she found out her husband cheated on her. Whether or not it's because she was more upset he was cheating on her with the second lowest class in Hell than the fact he generally cheated on her, it's a justified ragefest. She blurred it out because I know this isn't the first time she raised her voice at him. And did you forget in that SAME EPISODE, Stolas completely ignored her daughter's uncomfortableness until the last minute? Should I also add in the fact he mainly used their little "get together" just to flirt with Blitzo? Did that not ever occur to you? Maybe it was originally to get away from Stella, but that don't justify squat because most of the episode is spent him clearly ignoring his daughter's worries and literally shoving the source of who he was having an "affair" with in front of her the whole time. TWICE. Both in S1:E2 and S2:E2.

Second Image - Retcon. That's all I'm saying about this image.

Third Image - To be fair, what else could she do? Her entire existence is being the breeding tool to make a new Goetia heir. She wanted to get the egg and be done with it. We don't exactly know what she meant by "everything", too. Did she mean it as rape? Did she mean it as "she had to be the one to do all the hard work because Stolas barely could attempt"? We don't fully know, so all what you're saying is pure speculation and not fact.

Fourth Image - Again, retcon. Cartoon villain dialogue. Also, normal life? Where is that normal life? Did the show ever expressed that? We know her life was somewhat normal during her childhood, but he sure didn't seem to give her a normal life during the whole cheating arc. I have nothing else to say about this image.

Final Image - Nah, sorry, man. I'm a full on Stella apologist - for both of her cartoony actions and character. An heir completely powerless and was pressured into giving an egg to a guy who also equally didn't like her? Anyone would go mad. Anyone would get desperate to just get things over with and find a way to cope with it, even if it leads to verbal and physical means. I'm not gonna feel bad for sympathizing with a character who didn't get her needed development other than to have something for fujoshi's to hate. Vivziepop did this woman dirty beyond recovery.

Stolas is not a good character either, and people are very aware of that, but, no one needs to feel bad about condoning his actions because the majority of the fandom has accepted his deeds are justifiable under the name of toxic yaoi love.

And caring about a character who's been turned into nothing but a playing tool to drive up Stolitz does not make one delusional. It makes one upset because there could've been a lot more done to her. The show refused to do any of that. The show successfully made people go against Stella and completely justify all of Stolas' actions.

The real delusional people are the ones who refuse to look at Stolas under the same scrutiny and light.

That's all I'm saying for this one. I wished to say a lot more, but I don't want to commit textwall.jpeg again.

 

[LucasSomething]

Yeah. The worst part of being a fan of this show is knowing you can't really do anything to fix it, so you're just left rambling about things you know won't be solved or fixed whatsoever. A great show squandered heavily and all I can do is talk about its woes and not trying to break the reply function again as I am reminded of those squanders.

It's the rwby anti-fan syndrome, the most dedicated haters are those who really wish it was good.

Third Image - To be fair, what else could she do? Her entire existence is being the breeding tool to make a new Goetia heir. She wanted to get the egg and be done with it. We don't exactly know what she meant by "everything", too. Did she mean it as rape? Did she mean it as "she had to be the one to do all the hard work because Stolas barely could attempt"? We don't fully know, so all what you're saying is pure speculation and not fact.

I like how "Stella said she had to do everything during sex"" is automatic translated to "SHE RAPED HIM!" by the fanbase when the much more logical assumption would be that Stolas simply... refused to engage in sex to spite her? Stella even says he is "bad at sex" but the fanbase swears Stolas is a sex god meaning he could've engaged if he wanted.

Which is kinda of a dick move for someone who allegedly "tried for many years but it was never enough". You could argue he's gay and cant get erect with a woman sure but it doesnt matter, those had to be the worst days of Stella's life and she still did it.

Imagine being forced into being a godforsaken breeder and spending half your life anxious only for this fucking faggot to not give a flying fuck about it. Even if Stella always hated Stolas, he could've made it faster/easier for both of them but he left all the burden and pressure on her.

Godammit vivzie, you accidently left me enough room to give Stella the benefit of doubt again!

 

[didelphigina]

I can't edit my post, so I'm gonna add onto the third image here:

These two are in an arranged marriage, a forced one. Paimon would've most likely pressured them into having a child. If Stolas didn't want the child, then Stella would have no choice but to make him give her one, and vice verse. She didn't "force" him to have a child, these two were already forced under their hands to have a child from Paimon. Who knows what could've happen if they disagreed to Paimon's demands for them to heir a child to the throne?

The quote retweets kept talking about the defender's and their lack of media literacy, but it's them who can't think further about things and only look at Stella through surface-level lens and not realize of the reasons why she became like this in the first place. Does it justify her cartoonishly abusing Stolas? I mean, being forced into something against your will, both for bodily and monarchic reasons, can do a lot to someone. It's no wonder she's so agitated, easily upset, and broke and threw everything when she suffered through having a child she didn't even consent to having under her own volition - for nearly two decades, mind you - only just to get cheated on by not only someone, but that someone being a literal plebian (in her terms).

Not everyone, but some people will develop certain tendencies to cope with this kind of inevitable thing she feels she'll never fully escape from. No one cares about that, though, because the show tells us to not care about it. Don't think further of her. She's a meanie abuser. Hate her. Become basically the Valentino of this godforsaken show.

Yeah, I'm walking away from my screen now.

I like how "Stella said she had to do everything during sex"" is automatic translated to "SHE RAPED HIM!" by the fanbase when the much more logical assumption would be that Stolas simply... refused to engage in sex to spite her? Stella even says he is "bad at sex" but the fanbase swears Stolas is a sex god meaning he could've engaged if he wanted.

He probably didn't want to. Neither of them did, but I'm hypothetically assuming Stella just made him do it because she's the breeder of the heir, so unlike Stolas, she has to deal with being impregnated and having to be the mother of a daughter she didn't even consent to wanting. But even so, I feel she still tried to care for her. But again, the show doesn't show that because in the show, such matters don't exist. She's the one who was forced under her hand a lot more than him. But we're all supposed to believe he's the poor, defenseless victim.

 

[Hammersmith]

Godammit vivzie, you accidently left me enough room to give Stella the benefit of doubt again!

Never mind the fact that based on the evidence we saw, Stella did try to make the marriage work at one point. Never mind the picture of all 3 of them at Loo Loo Land, clearly smiling and happy.

An heir completely powerless and was pressured into giving an egg to a guy who also equally didn't like her? Anyone would go mad. Anyone would get desperate to just get things over with and find a way to cope with it, even if it leads to verbal and physical means.

Now this is incredibly funny.
I present to you the Vivziepop Character Paradox™. It's when Vivzie tries to deliberately make a negative (or a good) character, but it backfires and does the opposite effect.

Some examples:
Stella is written to be a total cartoon villain and used as an excuse for Stolas' behavior, but in reality she is a victim of her husband's abuse and cheating, which culminates in her emotional instability, which makes (reasonable) people sympathetic to her situation.
Adam is written to be (again) a total cartoon jock villain for plot's sake, but his blasé personality is endearing to some people, and his justifications for killing demons also make him look cool.
Stolas is written to be a total good guy, to be a sympathetic figure to the viewers and to his plights, but he's actually a pompous, rich, unstable asshole with no consideration for his wife's, daughter's, or his gay lover's feelings.

Lmao how do you fuck this up?

 

[Doctor of Autism]

but the fanbase swears Stolas is a sex god meaning he could've engaged if he wanted.

How the fuck could he even be a sex god, like the whole start of the affair that takes up too much time in this show is cause Blitzo fucked him in a way he never experienced. It’s cringe to say but Stolas is literally a bottom.

 

[LucasSomething]

How the fuck could he even be a sex god, like the whole start of the affair that takes up too much time in this show is cause Blitzo fucked him in a way he never experienced. It’s cringe to say but Stolas is literally a bottom.

I mentioned here before but there is an unironic chunk of the fanbase that were more upset about Stolas being called "terrible in bed" than potentially being raped.

https://www.reddit.com/r/HelluvaBoss/comments/whj0y1/stolas_is_bad_in_bed/

Cause ya know, priorities?

 

[The Nothingness]

I stumbled upon this thread, which has some opinions on Stella. I don't quite know much about her character, so I can't say much. Are they correct?
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LOL at the accusation that Stella raped Stolas. I learned, from the current wave of feminists, that men cannot be raped by women and if his bird dick was hard then that was his consent, amirite?

How the fuck could he even be a sex god, like the whole start of the affair that takes up too much time in this show is cause Blitzo fucked him in a way he never experienced. It’s cringe to say but Stolas is literally a bottom.

He is definitely the bottom bitch as seen with all the foreplay from Blitzo. And that one super sex toy Blitzo got in the last episode further reinforced Stolas' role in the relationship.

 

[Gender: Xenomorph]

Now I started to think about how hell itself is being presented in the series. Why ARE there buildings, streets, restaurants, mansions, shops, and other infrastructure in hell? Who built these? The city itself frequently gets destroyed by either demon shenanigans or angels during extermination day. So who rebuilds everything after it has been destroyed? Are there construction companies in hell? Where did they get the materials to build shit? From what I've seen, there isn't much variety in raw goods. Is the show implying that there is some kind of trade system between rings? I've seen Imps farming in the wrath ring, so is the surplus being shipped to the other rings for profit?

Yea I was wondering this in HB.

If they have an assassin agency in a ghetto, what keeps a former victim from just bazookaing the entire block?

 

[InJailOutSoon]

There's too many people to respond, so I'm going to make my own small little thread since I'm a Stella apologist apparently (lol):

First off, I don't even really like Stella. How can I find any intrigue in a character that is basically just an obstacle for a character that I absolutely dispise? The most I can say is I like the initial blueprint for Stella. She could have been such intriguing antagonist and there are multiple paths you could have taken with her. But instead, we go the most boring route of "one-dimensional bitch who is in the way of the two lovers romance". And they don't even do that right, because Andrealphus is now taking the reigns. She has nothing.

Secondly, anything from season 2 we get from her is an entirely different character from season 1. She's even drawn differently. No matter how much they want to say that she wasn't retconned. Stolas was initially going to take a more antagonistic role originally, but because Viv loved the ship Stolitz so much, that became the main focus for the series.

Thirdly, just love the fact that people say Stella raped Stolas. It's not like she didn't also say that she was glad to stop having sex with Stolas after she produced the egg. You know, the reason why they both got married in the first place. I'm sure for the most part that means both of them consented here because they both knew that was part of their duties. It's not like either one of them could refuse.

Also, Stolas has a cloaca so guess he was kind of born to be a bottom...even though in season 1 episode 2 it is alluded that he does have a penis....but it's not like this show cares about plotholes to begin with. Remember, when Moxxie said he was born in Wrath? Yeah, the dumb Twitter thread wants you to just accept that after he was born there, he immediately moved to Greed with his family. Because Viv wanted Moxxie to have at one point be apart of the mafia. Does it make sense? Nope. But as I mentioned before...don't think about it. Just consume the media.

 

[The Nothingness]

Yea I was wondering this in HB.

If they have an assassin agency in a ghetto, what keeps a former victim from just bazookaing the entire block?

I see I'm not the only one who thought of this scenario that likely won't be covered in a future episode:

One topic that I would look at, which was brought up on the Just Stop video, is the idea of one of IMP's victims ending up in Hell and wanting revenge on both them and the client who paid for the hit.

For my additional commentary on Valentino and repeat what I've posted previously, Vivzie can't do dark characters. Others pointed out his goofy moments render him not a threat when he's suppose to be dangerous and I concur. You can have a character who has funny moments and still a vicious individual, but you need to find that balance (see any good versions of the Joker). This comedy sketch is a example of said balance even though it mainly consists of puns. The troupe on the DVD commentary theorized that Trevor Moore's (RIP) pimp character is such a scumbag that he cut up the prostitute and is mocking her.

 

[Cyber Bowling]

For my additional commentary on Valentino and repeat what I've posted previously, Vivzie can't do dark characters. Others pointed out his goofy moments render him not a threat when he's suppose to be dangerous and I concur.

I also agree, and might even go one step further and say Vivzie can't really write conflict. To give a little credit, she can write melodrama, which when done correctly can definitely have conflict, but it feels like the majority of situations in her shows lack any sort of weight or substance and have predictable, yet ultimately unearned outcomes.

And...that's honestly fine. If you recognize that's the kind of show you're writing. Not every show needs to have suspenseful twists or epic worldbuilding, and animation especially is a great choice for a more relaxed show. I mentioned earlier, but Hazbin (and presumably Helluva, I haven't actually seen any of it) is a show that highschool me would gladly eat up if it aired around midnight on Adult Swim. And if it was presented as that, I'd likely be a lot less harsh on it and write it off as a relatively harmless and goofy cartoon for kids.

There's two big issues. The biggest is Vivzie is in denial about what she writes, and instead of leaning into the niche space she can write, she's trying to do these big, epic storylines that she simply cannot support. In no small part because she really does have a teenager's mindset on a lot of subjects. Her idea of "tough, hardened criminal" is more akin with "school bully". Her worldbuilding is also very small and narrow, like someone who doesn't have a worldview larger than their high school. Her idea of "badass" is perfect, snarky character that effortlessly defeats thier opponents using deus ex powers that they've just always had. And the only reason they don't solve more conflicts with said powers is because they're being "masterminds" in the background, acting like they're manipulating everything in the world to suit their needs...but then never revealing what their needs really are, or setting up arbitrary roadblocks to fuel angst and brooding.

The other, less severe issue is Vivzie really isn't funny and struggles with comedy. IMO this is less of an issue because I don't know if she actually advertises her shows as comedies. I think it only becomes a problem when joke attempts undo attempts at serious writing, like the rape scenes/jokes in Hazbin.

I guess the TLDR is Vivzie should just focus on her strengths, writing coffee-fic style teen melodrama. It's not a genre I'm personally interested in, but clearly there's an audience for it.

 

[AnOminous]

The other, less severe issue is Vivzie really isn't funny and struggles with comedy. IMO this is less of an issue because I don't know if she actually advertises her shows as comedies. I think it only becomes a problem when joke attempts undo attempts at serious writing, like the rape scenes/jokes in Hazbin.

Make Brandon Rogers the lead writer. At least one major problem solved (although more will remain).