Highguard - Concord 2.0?

[Tanner Glass]

Its definitely something we need to put our foot down on and select an actual, factual definition for. Because I wouldn't call Sandfall an indie studio either but it still schlorped up every best indie game award. AA might be more appropriate.

But I think we have a more insidious problem on our hands now; Triple A has come to the understanding they no longer have the credibility to sell their absurdly overbudget garbage so they're trying to steal the credibility of being an indie studio to sell their crap. Even worse, the big investors like tencent are doing this entirely behind closed doors so the failure can't be traced back to them. The shell company (In this case Wildlight) are the ones that suffer the blame and the general populace is none the wiser this was Tencents fault.

I think "Indie" has a pretty clear definition as "Independent Studio".

Sandfall is 100% Indie because they aren't owned by a larger company (unlike every other larger studio save for Larian), same as whatever the studio for Undertale, Stardew, Shovel Knight, Balatro, etc - it's a very specific definition, even if E33 was probably helped tremendously from some of them having rich parents. It's generally a definition about a studio's ability to make its own decisions (primarily, Expedition 33 would not be a game modern Ubisoft would make and would say a new IP is too risky, the cast too white, etc) and an understanding that they aren't other teams and resources they have access to (unlike say, Dave the Diver from Nexon or Hearthstone from Blizzard).

The "A", "AA", "AAA" descriptors are more for the size of the studio - while most indies are "A" sized, Sandfall is an Indie AA and Larian is probably the only Indie Triple A in the landscape. Even non-indie companies run small A or AA teams (such as Dave the Diver, Hearthstone, I am Setsuna, etc) to try and force the same results.

 

[p1138]

I think "Indie" has a pretty clear definition as "Independent Studio".

Sandfall is 100% Indie because they aren't owned by a larger company (unlike every other larger studio save for Larian), same as whatever the studio for Undertale, Stardew, Shovel Knight, Balatro, etc - it's a very specific definition, even if E33 was probably helped tremendously from some of them having rich parents. It's generally a definition about a studio's ability to make its own decisions (primarily, Expedition 33 would not be a game modern Ubisoft would make and would say a new IP is too risky, the cast too white, etc) and an understanding that they aren't other teams and resources they have access to (unlike say, Dave the Diver from Nexon or Hearthstone from Blizzard).

The "A", "AA", "AAA" descriptors are more for the size of the studio - while most indies are "A" sized, Sandfall is an Indie AA and Larian is probably the only Indie Triple A in the landscape. Even non-indie companies run small A or AA teams (such as Dave the Diver, Hearthstone, I am Setsuna, etc) to try and force the same results.

Exactly this. "Indie" has nothing to do with AA, AAA, or where the funding comes from.

Is the studio owned by a publisher yes/no?

If no, then it's an indie studio. This has been the case for the past 40 years and hasn't changed. I really don't understand where the hell all of this confusion is coming from other than the retard highguard dev who made his blog post crying about how wildlight wasn't "corporate" when it was literally a fucking corporation and again has nothing to do with being owned by a publisher or being indie. It was a shitty attempt to appear to retarded masses. Even a 5 person dev team can be a corporation making a game.

Build a rocket boy, 200-500 employees(before layoffs) made Mindseye
Cloud Imperium Games, 500-1000 employees they've been working on that scam Star Citizen for a decade
Larian, around 300 employees, Divinity series and Baldurs Gate 3
Valve Software, around 350 employees, yes that valve software is indie
Roblox, 2500 employees, publicly traded, still technically indie
Mihoyo, 5000 employees, makes billions on waifu gacha games, still indie

Indie never meant "mom and pop" game studio

 

[LopsidedLegend]

the real problem is that you see that and you go, instantly "who cares", he's as bland as a Final Fantasy background character.

Compare the first 15 seconds where all you see is John Highguard, to this live action trailer for Devil May Cry 3, imagine you have no idea who Dante is, or what Devil May Cry is.

all you get is immediate high octane action from Reuben Langdon (the V.A. and Mocap of Dante and plays him in this trailer), you can instantly tell he's cocky, has a sort of young punk rock vibe with the leather jacket and no shirt, and that he's powerful, fast, and knows it, you don't even need context of what he's attacking or the plot, you can tell at a glance that this is a stylish game.

Also true, trailers have been lacking for most big companies as well. Personality is an important thing to know about a character in a video game. We get that with this trailer in spades, we have 0 clue what the personality of anyone in Highguard is. All these marketing companies failing to deliver because they don't show people anything interesting. Not that there is anything in this game specifically. But there's definitely some games that have flopped due to this, and especially tv shows. It doesn't have to necessarily be high octane action, but it has to be something interesting. If it looks boring why would anyone play it.

Roblox, 2500 employees, publicly traded, still technically indie
Mihoyo, 5000 employees, makes billions on waifu gacha games, still indie

I disagree on these two. Indie means you don't have owners. Roblox being publicly traded means they are beholden to investors, and Mihoyo is beholden to the CCP. They have owners. The rest you listed do not. Hence considering them indie isn't really valid. China is a fascist state where all companies within it must be aligned with the government and Roblox is beholden to billionair Karens and billionaire porn addicts. Having owners prevents you from doing what you want, which is the point of indie. Hence why so many indies are also just flat out scams. The ones that aren't are usually just good games however. It's like calling Dustborn indie when the US government owned it. No, I don't think I will. Using the specification of publisher owner instead of owner I'd say is the issue. Publishers are one form of owner, but all forms of ownership outside of the studio itself are not indie.

tl;dr, does your company own its creation? If yes, indie. If no, not indie. Mihoyo and Roblox do not own their creations. Larian, Cloud Imperium and Valve do,

 

[Broadside]

people riding on horseback shooting laser machineguns at eachother

The zomg so random millennial devs clearly thought they were cooking with this mess

 

[Tanner Glass]

Indie never meant "mom and pop" game studio

to be fair, while it was never the literal definition - most indie studios were mom and pop just because they never had money to start with. Undertale kickstarted for like $50,000 - which wouldn't pay for a single Triple A dev though a full year.

Larian (and now Sandfall) are massive outliers as far as Indie Studios go in terms of scale.

 

[DumbDude43]

Valve Software, around 350 employees, yes that valve software is indie

valve is basically a publisher of its own
might as well call EA "indie" because they're not owned by some other company lol

 

[Tanner Glass]

valve is basically a publisher of its own
might as well call EA "indie" because they're not owned by some other company lol

Right, but they own other companies - which makes them a holding/parent company and not a studio.

I think Valve is in a weird place but I wouldn't call them indie because they have so many other product lines (Steam and all it's tendrils), it would like calling Xbox an indie.

 

[Disc]

tl;dr, does your company own its creation? If yes, indie. If no, not indie. Mihoyo and Roblox do not own their creations. Larian, Cloud Imperium and Valve do,

I'd argue you're both kinda off.

I really struggle to buy the idea that 100+ employees is what I'd ever think of when asked to describe 'indie'. Mainly because I think it's worthwhile having a middle-ground AA section, and I'm almost certain there's a company or two out there that own themselves and are categorically not indie (i.e. anyone who can manufacture a console)

To me, if you can get them around a table at the pub or two, that's undeniably indie. If it takes more than about 3 tables (let's say this is more than 25-ish), that's when you're at the lower level of AA development.

From there, I split it basically by how corporate they act, rather than by headcount or if they're owned by a publisher or if they have a big financial backer. There's unfortunately no need for corporate oversight to adopt a corporate mindset.

So I'd have things vaguely like this:
- 1-25 devs, no backing; Indie
- 25-300 devs, independent and flexible behaviour: Independent AA
- 25-300 devs, corporate behaviour: Corporate AA
- 300+: Probably Corporate
I'd consider things like Larian and Sandfall to be Independent AAs, rather than Indie studios.

 

[LopsidedLegend]

I'd argue you're both kinda off.

I really struggle to buy the idea that 100+ employees is what I'd ever think of when asked to describe 'indie'. Mainly because I think it's worthwhile having a middle-ground AA section, and I'm almost certain there's a company or two out there that own themselves and are categorically not indie (i.e. anyone who can manufacture a console)

To me, if you can get them around a table at the pub or two, that's undeniably indie. If it takes more than about 3 tables (let's say this is more than 25-ish), that's when you're at the lower level of AA development.

From there, I split it basically by how corporate they act, rather than by headcount or if they're owned by a publisher or if they have a big financial backer. There's unfortunately no need for corporate oversight to adopt a corporate mindset.

So I'd have things vaguely like this:
- 1-25 devs, no backing; Indie
- 25-300 devs, independent and flexible behaviour: Independent AA
- 25-300 devs, corporate behaviour: Corporate AA
- 300+: Probably Corporate
I'd consider things like Larian and Sandfall to be Independent AAs, rather than Indie studios.

That's also fair. Regardless however, if you don't own your products, you absolutely cannot be considered indie.

 

[p1138]

valve is basically a publisher of its own
might as well call EA "indie" because they're not owned by some other company lol

EA was setup as a publisher from the start, and hasn't made a game on their own without using a studio for it since something like 1998 with one of their golf games

Using the specification of publisher owner instead of owner I'd say is the issue. Publishers are one form of owner, but all forms of ownership outside of the studio itself are not indie.

Being a "publisher owner" doesn't have anything to do with it either, as there are plenty of indie developers that use publishers of varying sizes, and even some indie developers do not own the rights to the games they make because that's entirely dependent on the contract setup with the publisher or other rights owner involved.

Yes, this means you can have an indie studio that's effectively contracted by someone else to make a game for them and it doesn't change that the studio isn't owned by a publisher. This used to happen regularly with Sony and some studios before Sony bought them.

Again, this shit never had anything to do with a funding source, and was never confusing until people apparently very recently decided to start conflating it with studio size and funding sources.

edit: Anyway, the stupid game rebounded to a whopping 1300 players over the weekend, but at the same time as those peaks on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday hit a whole 860 players

 

[LopsidedLegend]

EA was setup as a publisher from the start, and hasn't made a game on their own without using a studio for it since something like 1998 with one of their golf games

Being a "publisher owner" doesn't have anything to do with it either, as there are plenty of indie developers that use publishers of varying sizes, and even some indie developers do not own the rights to the games they make because that's entirely dependent on the contract setup with the publisher or other rights owner involved.

Yes, this means you can have an indie studio that's effectively contracted by someone else to make a game for them and it doesn't change that the studio isn't owned by a publisher. This used to happen regularly with Sony and some studios before Sony bought them.

Again, this shit never had anything to do with a funding source, and was never confusing until people apparently very recently decided to start conflating it with studio size and funding sources.

edit: Anyway, the stupid game rebounded to a whopping 1300 players over the weekend, but at the same time as those peaks on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday hit a whole 860 players
View attachment 8610053

I use ownership rather than funding for a reason. Crowdfunding is a funding source similar to investments. But Kickstarter backers don't own the IP they fund. Similarly, if the indie studio owns whatever game they were contracted to make, they're still indie. If the developers own it, then it's their game, and if it's their game then its indie. If it's not their game then it is not. If it's not independently owned then is it really independent? I agree that funding sources, funding amounts or studio sizes are retarded metrics. But unless they later sell the rights for example, the witcher books are indie because the author owned his books even if now due to selling the rights he no longer does, manga is also indie when the mangaka owns the rights and not when a publisher like shonen jump owns them instead, if they don't own it then it isn't indie however. Slave Labor Graphics for example is a publisher of indie comics, but every single comic they produce is owned by their authors. Jhonen Vasquez owns Johnny The Homicidal Maniac. But he had to fight for the rights to Invader Zim because when he made it he didn't own it. Or how Team Cherry owns Hollow Knight, or how Sandfall owns Expedition 33.

Regardless, Highguard sucks. First Descendant gets more players and it's a knockoff of Warframe without any of the fun parts.

Tranny appeal to get the 'all women' esports teams.

Fable bros on suicide watch

And the vast majority troons still just stick to the same big tiddy games they always did because troons are porn addicts. Weird how if one wants the troon audience they just have to appeal to normal gooners because troons ultimately just want to be a hot chick with massive tits. They lop off the tits to appease the troons, and they end up pissing the troons off too. Weird how nobody understands that everyone loves big tits. It's almost as if troon is a fetish for someone with massive tits and a massive dick. And every attempt to conceal this only ruins those trying to hide it.

 

[DumbDude43]

Crowdfunding is a funding source similar to investments

no it's not.
crowdfunding contributions are literally just donations, you get nothing in return, you have no legal entitlements to anything. you give free money to a company.
actual investors get a stake in the company, they are entitled to a share of the profits and depending on the arrangements also get a say in how the company is run.

real investors get a return on investment. cuckstarter contributors get at most a shoutout when the games credits roll.

 

[LopsidedLegend]

no it's not.
crowdfunding contributions are literally just donations, you get nothing in return, you have no legal entitlements to anything. you give free money to a company.
actual investors get a stake in the company, they are entitled to a share of the profits and depending on the arrangements also get a say in how the company is run.

real investors get a return on investment. cuckstarter contributors get at most a shoutout when the games credits roll.

I meant similar as in it's an outside funding source, not it's similar to investments in that there's a transfer of ownership or entitlements. As in, they're both outside funding, but the devs still own it. My point is, investors own your product while donators don't. Kickstarter and Nintendo don't own Hollow Knight because they gave them money, nor does Sony or Xbox own Pocketpair. Nor does Epic Games own Blender or Godot. However, Microslop owns Call of Duty and before that Activision. Similar to how Wolfenstein and DooM were independent before Bethesda started pushing for ownership (originally the deal with working for Bethesda was it was indie, similar to XBox Live Arcade which published many indie games of the 2010s but the developers still owned their games).

 

[Jace on ice]

Shieeeeet!

 

[Swine Schwein]

Highguard? More like "I didn't hit those player numbers, it's bullshit, I didn't hit them I did noooot. Oh Hai Guard"

 

[Prophetic Spirit]

Highguard? More lime Highfall

 

[Not Funny]

I think that a major part of the problems these publishers having is marketing as well. A shit trailer will not give you good player numbers. Even a game that I might not be particularly interested in will pull me in if the game that is shown in a 1 minute trailer is compelling enough.



Windrose which is a pirate survival game marketed itself as Crosswind a few months ago. It got middling reviews during a private demo. They changed the game's philosphy from an mmo survival game to just a regular survival game. Honestly I did not think it would do this well or retain players for this long. But not only did it have good marketing, it also had several high profile streamers playing it.

The trailer is pretty much what everyone wanted from a pirate game. I can't really say anything about sea of thieves because I haven't played it and the gameplay I did see didn't really seem that interesting to me. But we haven't had a definitively good pirate game since AC Black Flag in 2014. Skull and bones dragged on for a decade and came out as a shitty unpolished Ubisoft game which is what they're known for now. I know there was another high profile pirate game that came out recently but I don't remember the name of it.

Marketing is everything. If people are writing your game off in the first 5 seconds of a trailer you've fucked up royally.

 

[Lurkerish Kandor]

If people are writing your game off in the first 5 seconds of a trailer you've fucked up royally.

Thats what frustrated me when I watched Bricky's video yesterday.

It was just the usual shit of "I'm disappointed in people not playing Highguard. All this hateful review bombing is sad. I personally know people involved in the development and they care so super hard, you guys just don't even know. You need to support games you don't like the look of because the developers are passionate."

People saw the trailer and weren't fucking interested. Simple as that. No one has an obligation to support things they don't like the look of.
I only discovered Bricky like 6 months ago and already he's devolved into some fat bespectacled heckin' wholesome game dev respecter. He's the current iteration of an Access Journalist.

 

[p1138]

Thats what frustrated me when I watched Bricky's video yesterday.

It was just the usual shit of "I'm disappointed in people not playing Highguard. All this hateful review bombing is sad. I personally know people involved in the development and they care so super hard, you guys just don't even know. You need to support games you don't like the look of because the developers are passionate."

People saw the trailer and weren't fucking interested. Simple as that. No one has an obligation to support things they don't like the look of.
I only discovered Bricky like 6 months ago and already he's devolved into some fat bespectacled heckin' wholesome game dev respecter. He's the current iteration of an Access Journalist.

Bricky is a grifting faggot.

He makes gay warhammer merch for gay warhammer channels

P

Post in thread 'Warhammer 40k'

Feb 20, 2026

32 fucking k. Depression isn't actually caused by any sort of chemical imbalance so they're literally gonna pay thousands of dollars to get high in a clinic room and call it therapy. So cool

Keep in mind they've also got a patreon making $850 a month for god knows what https://www.patreon.com/Numbskulls
And then merch on top of that

https://shop.orchideight.com/collections/numbskulls

Maybe $25 "GAY WRATH" coffee mugs don't sell well enough?

• p1138

Reactions: x 5 x 2

Runs a scripted lore podcast for 40k, still gets shit wrong constantly(and the co-host barely gives a shit about the IP, and is also a faggot femboy alien vtuber thing). Promotes his muscle mommy fetish bullshit with gamersupps. Would say basically anything to appear on other 40k related youtube channels. Shills his own merch and merch company so he can make merch for other channels(like the gay coffee mug, gay tshirts, etc.) by running a sweatshop full of mexicans down in southern California.

 

[Disc]

I still think the far more important metric is 'do you act corporate or not'. Focus on the games being produced and the behaviour of the employees, rather than the company structure. It's far more subjective, of course, but I think that makes far more sense than trying to define concrete rules when someone goes from an 'indie developer' to a 'corporate developer'.