EU Le Gilets Jaune protests thread - Do you hear the people sing? Singing the songs of angry men?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46233560

One protester has died and dozens were injured as almost a quarter of a million people took to the streets of France, angry at rising fuel prices.

The female protester who died was struck after a driver surrounded by demonstrators panicked and accelerated.

The "yellow vests", so-called after the high-visibility jackets they are required to carry in their cars, blocked motorways and roundabouts.

They accuse President Emmanuel Macron of abandoning "the little people".

Mr Macron has not so far commented on the protests, some of which have seen demonstrators call for him to resign.

But he admitted earlier in the week that he had not "really managed to reconcile the French people with their leaders".

Nonetheless, he accused his political opponents of hijacking the movement in order to block his reform programme.

What has happened so far?
Some 244,000 people took part in protests across France, the interior ministry said in its latest update.

It said 106 people were injured during the day, five seriously, with 52 people arrested.

Most of the protests have been taking place without incident although several of the injuries came when drivers tried to force their way through protesters.

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Image copyrightREUTERS
Image captionA driver forces a car through a group of protesters in Donges, western France
Chantal Mazet, 63, was killed in the south-eastern Savoy region when a driver who was taking her daughter to hospital panicked at being blocked by about 50 demonstrators, who were striking the roof of her vehicle, and drove into them.

The driver has been taken into police custody in a state of shock.

In Paris protesters approaching the Élysée Palace, the president's official residence, were repelled with tear gas.

Why are drivers on the warpath?
The price of diesel, the most commonly used fuel in French cars, has risen by around 23% over the past 12 months to an average of €1.51 (£1.32; $1.71) per litre, its highest point since the early 2000s, AFP news agency reports.

World oil prices did rise before falling back again but the Macron government raised its hydrocarbon tax this year by 7.6 cents per litre on diesel and 3.9 cents on petrol, as part of a campaign for cleaner cars and fuel.

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Image copyrightEPA
Image captionTear gas was used to disperse protesters in Paris
The decision to impose a further increase of 6.5 cents on diesel and 2.9 cents on petrol on 1 January 2019 was seen as the final straw.

Speaking on Wednesday, the president blamed world oil prices for three-quarters of the price rise. He also said more tax on fossil fuels was needed to fund renewable energy investments.

How big is the movement?
It has broad support. Nearly three-quarters of respondents to a poll by the Elabe institute backed the Yellow Vests and 70% wanted the government to reverse the fuel tax hikes.

More than half of French people who voted for Mr Macron support the protests, Elabe's Vincent Thibault told AFP.

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Image copyrightREUTERS
Image captionPolice attend as protesters block a motorway in Antibes
"The expectations and discontent over spending power are fairly broad, it's not just something that concerns rural France or the lower classes," he said.

The BBC's Lucy Williamson in Paris says the movement has grown via social media into a broad and public criticism of Mr Macron's economic policies.

Are opposition politicians involved?
They have certainly tried to tap into it. Far-right leader Marine Le Pen, who was defeated by Mr Macron in the second round of the presidential election, has been encouraging it on Twitter.

She said: "The government shouldn't be afraid of French people who come to express their revolt and do it in a peaceful fashion."

Image Copyright @MLP_officiel@MLP_OFFICIEL
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Laurent Wauquiez, leader of the centre-right Republicans, called on the Macron government to scrap the next planned increase in carbon tax on fossil fuels in January to offset rising vehicle fuel prices.

Mr Castaner has described Saturday's action as a "political protest with the Republicans behind it".

Olivier Faure, leader of the left-wing Socialist Party said the movement - which has no single leader and is not linked to any trade union - had been "born outside political parties".

"People want politicians to listen to them and respond. Their demand is to have purchasing power and financial justice," he said.

Image Copyright @faureolivier@FAUREOLIVIER
Report
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Is there any room for compromise?
On Wednesday, the government announced action to help poor families pay their energy and transport bills.

Prime Minister Edouard Philippe announced that 5.6 million households would receive energy subsidies. Currently 3.6 million receive them.

A state scrappage bonus on polluting vehicles would also be doubled for France's poorest families, he said, and fuel tax credits would be brought in for people who depend on their cars for work.

Protesters have mocked the president relentlessly as "Micron" or "Macaron" (Macaroon) or simply Manu, the short form of Emmanuel, which he famously scolded a student for using.

Image Copyright @BBCWorld@BBCWORLD
Report

To be honest, I don't blame the driver at all.
 
Not if they get paid.

Nah I really don't think so. What you have to understand about all the wounded in protests is that it is a specific police brigade that is responsible for most of it. There are 3 different forces deployed:

1- Gendarmerie: They are mostly chill and people don't have a problem against them.

2- CRS: the anti-riot force. It may look like they're the bad guys because of charging without warning, gasing etc, but it is more and more apparent that they are being willfully kept in the dark during their actions by their superiors so that they don't really know what's going on even 2 streets down. Another problem is that they are separated in 2 categories also: the professionals that were trained to do this, and what is called the CDIs (Contrats of Indeterminated Lenghts, dunno what's the english equivalent) that are NOT trained but still given the same loadout that they don't know how to use.

3- BAC: the Anti-Criminality Brigade. Those are the crazy ones. Normally, they are the one who intervene during drug busts in dangerous neighborhoods, so they are used to make use of ANY means necessary because they arrest viloent CRIMINALS. The problem now is that we have given them weapons of war and basically told them to go crazy. They are the ones responsible for most of the injured. They are also the ones that go inside the protests to break shit and make it look like the protestors did it.

The army will NOT go against the civilians, I can almost guarantee you. At least I really, really hope so otherwise we're fucked.
 
The army will NOT go against the civilians, I can almost guarantee you. At least I really, really hope so otherwise we're fucked.

I would be ready to bet large sums that the french army will not shoot at civilians if ordered to do so by Macron. People talking about this kind of scenario seem to have some kind of murderboner for civil war going on, and don't seem to understand the nature of European countries at all.
 
I would be ready to bet large sums that the french army will not shoot at civilians if ordered to do so by Macron. People talking about this kind of scenario seem to have some kind of murderboner for civil war going on, and don't seem to understand the nature of European countries at all.
I dunno man. If the BAC is willing to fuck common people up just because Macron told it to do so, we should not cross out that the army would do the same out of some weird reasons.
 
I dunno man. If the BAC is willing to fuck common people up just because Macron told it to do so, we should not cross out that the army would do the same out of some weird reasons.
The BAC and the army couldn't be more different. The BAC forms people to arrest criminals anyway they can. The military is here to protect the population, that is 2 really different mindsets.

EDIT:
If anyone wants to follow the protest in Paris, here's a link that's not MSM. Looks like there is a lot of people again.
https://www.facebook.com/CIvicio18/videos/2935279029817397/
 
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I would be ready to bet large sums that the french army will not shoot at civilians if ordered to do so by Macron. People talking about this kind of scenario seem to have some kind of murderboner for civil war going on, and don't seem to understand the nature of European countries at all.
Yeah those talks of foreign involvement, civil war or revolution are just the wild fantasies of people who would enjoy seeing things like that happen but have very little knowledge of the actual situation.

This isn't a political movement there's no coherent ideology behind it, no demands, the only common denominator here is discontent, apart from that it's a cluster of people who either have widely different political beliefs or almost none at all, you don't start a civil war or a revolution over some vague anger and absolutely nothing else. It is somewhat exceptional in that it's been lasting for a while but that's it, in its current state it could only result at best in some political instability, which would hardly be anything new considering the two main political parties got wrecked in the 2017 election, and even that isn't guaranteed.
 
That's half true but also half wrong as hell. There are revendications. Pretty clear at that too.
Here
Yeah "no demands" wasn't the right way to put it, there are no shared, coherent demands, I mean this list is really nice and believe me I'm all for a Soviet Republic of France, taxing corporations into oblivion, money for everyone and whatnot, but no-one's actually gonna go for any of that when they actually ponder the consequences.
 
Yeah "no demands" wasn't the right way to put it, there are no shared, coherent demands, I mean this list is really nice and believe me I'm all for a Soviet Republic of France, taxing corporations into oblivion, money for everyone and whatnot, but no-one's actually gonna go for any of that when they actually ponder the consequences.

I mean corporations do not create wealth. Banks accumulate wealth by taking it out of the market. I'm going to take for example Carrefour, a brand of supermarkets. During Holland's presidency, he created what is called the CICE, a monetary fund made for creating jobs. In 5 years, Carrefour took around 10 (20?) Billions euros and let go 5500 people, while the investors were putting the money in their pockets. Keep in mind those are PUBLIC FUNDS. We want to stop that. We also want the government to stop selling public services to foreign powers and corporation, and they do that by pulling public founding to make people think they're not worth the hassle (they approved the sell of around 10 billions of public assets to corporations to put in an "innovation fund" that will bring about 200/300 millions maybe. That's a net loss no?)

We're not speaking of Soviet France, but maybe if the liberals and the bankers stopped fucking us over at every chance they get, maybe it'd be better. I know personnally I'm not against capitalism because it works, but the liberal philosophy is bullshit and people need to realize that. Corporations NEED to be put in check.
 
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Yeah those talks of foreign involvement, civil war or revolution are just the wild fantasies of people who would enjoy seeing things like that happen but have very little knowledge of the actual situation.

This isn't a political movement there's no coherent ideology behind it, no demands, the only common denominator here is discontent, apart from that it's a cluster of people who either have widely different political beliefs or almost none at all, you don't start a civil war or a revolution over some vague anger and absolutely nothing else. It is somewhat exceptional in that it's been lasting for a while but that's it, in its current state it could only result at best in some political instability, which would hardly be anything new considering the two main political parties got wrecked in the 2017 election, and even that isn't guaranteed.

that is EXACTLY how both French and American and Russian revolutions started.

Discontent comes first, discontent without party or ideology. Shit just sucks, shit is unfair. In French, American, Russian revolutions there were MANY directions, i.e. people were coming up with solutions, some political, some not. In the end, some party, group triumphs. But in the start, there is no one clear group or way of thought. Look again at French revolution and all the phases they went through. Same deal with Russian revolution. First, there was a revolution of 1905, then things brewed until WWI and shit economy, then there was the coup (in Ferbuary while bolshevik one came in November) that forced abdication but many parties were present. Bolshevicks were in fact in minority. They had to unite with menshevicks, essers etc. to form a dominant force (and execute their allies later)

In terms of ready for revolution, you got to ask, is shit bad, does government antagonizes people even more? Keep in mind, if not now, the spark may catalize a decade later when opposition was driven underground and they had enough time to regroup and seize the moment on the next dip.
 
Yeah "no demands" wasn't the right way to put it, there are no shared, coherent demands, I mean this list is really nice and believe me I'm all for a Soviet Republic of France, taxing corporations into oblivion, money for everyone and whatnot, but no-one's actually gonna go for any of that when they actually ponder the consequences.
We exported occupy movements worldwide baby!
 
You people really have a romanticized idea of revolutions XD During the last days of the French Revolution, noone at the beggining of the day went out with the death of the King in mind. It just happened. It's not a Hollywood movie where a charismatic person just rallies everyone behind them with the power of their words. It just happens.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: WhatNemesisMeans
that is EXACTLY how both French and American and Russian revolutions started.

Discontent comes first, discontent without party or ideology. Shit just sucks, shit is unfair. In French, American, Russian revolutions there were MANY directions, i.e. people were coming up with solutions, some political, some not. In the end, some party, group triumphs. But in the start, there is no one clear group or way of thought. Look again at French revolution and all the phases they went through. Same deal with Russian revolution. First, there was a revolution of 1905, then things brewed until WWI and shit economy, then there was the coup (in Ferbuary while bolshevik one came in November) that forced abdication but many parties were present. Bolshevicks were in fact in minority. They had to unite with menshevicks, essers etc. to form a dominant force (and execute their allies later)

In terms of ready for revolution, you got to ask, is shit bad, does government antagonizes people even more? Keep in mind, if not now, the spark may catalize a decade later when opposition was driven underground and they had enough time to regroup and seize the moment on the next dip.
I mean if we're pretending we're in 2035 sure you can say "in hindsight the yellow vest movement could be considered a good prelude the the HYPOTHETICAL MASSIVE POLITICAL UPSET OF 202X", but although discontent is necessary it is not nearly enough, and if you look at the key factors that turned the events you mention into full scale revolutions you'll find nothing remotely close to the current situation. You'll find episodes of similar civil unrest in all countries throughout history, and probably 95% didn't lead into anything bigger. If you want to compare it to the Russian revolution this is late 19th century material at best, nowhere near 1905, and some people are acting like it's 1917 and wondering if French soldiers are going to shoot 300 protesters next Saturday.
 
I know this is gonna look like a truther-conspiracy-batshit-insane post, especially with the red circles but here is a picture where you see the drones used by the government to surveil the protests in Paris:
717155
 
This isn't a political movement there's no coherent ideology behind it, no demands, the only common denominator here is discontent, apart from that it's a cluster of people who either have widely different political beliefs or almost none at all, you don't start a civil war or a revolution over some vague anger and absolutely nothing else.

Point taken, but you could be describing North America in 1774.

Heck, Ben Franklin considered independence a "second best" option. He went to his grave wishing the British had agreed to a commonwealth.

EDIT: Ninja'd, but the point stands.
 
probably 95% didn't lead into anything bigger
100% of the ones that did, though, had to start somewhere.

We're at, what, the 21st week of this? It's months past the point where "it'll probably just burn out"-type opinions have looked silly. None of us can predict what's going to happen.

A poster last page said that the civilians aren't going to escalate things. That's probably right. That's usually right: people react to force. And it feels a little bit like the pigs have been keeping the fire stoked. Why not? They're French.
 
I mean if we're pretending we're in 2035 sure you can say "in hindsight the yellow vest movement could be considered a good prelude the the HYPOTHETICAL MASSIVE POLITICAL UPSET OF 202X", but although discontent is necessary it is not nearly enough, and if you look at the key factors that turned the events you mention into full scale revolutions you'll find nothing remotely close to the current situation. You'll find episodes of similar civil unrest in all countries throughout history, and probably 95% didn't lead into anything bigger. If you want to compare it to the Russian revolution this is late 19th century material at best, nowhere near 1905, and some people are acting like it's 1917 and wondering if French soldiers are going to shoot 300 protesters next Saturday.

very true, there were a whole lot of unrests that didn't escalate in outright slaughter or just results in mini-slaughters that were localized. In Soviet Union, quiet a few unrests and uprisings took place. Shit, both Hungarian and Czechoslovakia should ring a bell where quiet a bit of violence was employed.

There are some factors that accelerate processes, artificial kind. One we can observe in Venezuela right now. People of Venezuela are not the only actors, you have a bunch of countries taking sides and actively working to promote change.

Closer to EU, there are countries close to Russia that are greatly affected. How and by who is debatable, but there is no debate that 2014 events in Ukraine had occured in total vacuum without external influence.

I'm not 100% on veracity of this info, but it's been reported by some sources that Marie LePen took 40mil loan from Putin. Was that true, not exactly, who knows. But there are actors beside French people who would want certain things to happen, both from political and business gain.

Having said all this, there is no magic formula on how the change is coming, but it surely will. May be not as big as people hope or like.
 
very true, there were a whole lot of unrests that didn't escalate in outright slaughter or just results in mini-slaughters that were localized. In Soviet Union, quiet a few unrests and uprisings took place. Shit, both Hungarian and Czechoslovakia should ring a bell where quiet a bit of violence was employed.

There are some factors that accelerate processes, artificial kind. One we can observe in Venezuela right now. People of Venezuela are not the only actors, you have a bunch of countries taking sides and actively working to promote change.

Closer to EU, there are countries close to Russia that are greatly affected. How and by who is debatable, but there is no debate that 2014 events in Ukraine had occured in total vacuum without external influence.

I'm not 100% on veracity of this info, but it's been reported by some sources that Marie LePen took 40mil loan from Putin. Was that true, not exactly, who knows. But there are actors beside French people who would want certain things to happen, both from political and business gain.

Having said all this, there is no magic formula on how the change is coming, but it surely will. May be not as big as people hope or like.
The National Front got two loans from Russian banks for a little over 11 million euros a few years ago because they said they struggled obtaining loans from French banks, and they're definitely an ideological proximity on some matters between them and Putin, that's about all we know about that link, but although that was legal then since 2017 it's illegal for political parties to obtain financing from outside the EU.
 
Lot of people for a movement the media keeps insisting is dead/dying after 21 straight weeks:

Neat shot:
717535


Cops denying medics protection (the kind that lets them keep their eyes)
 
Macron's "Great National Debate" is as expected a resounding failure.

https://twitter.com/Brevesdepresse/status/1113752684623015936

79% of French people think it will not solve the ongoing social crisis.

68% think the government will not take the point of views expressed during the debate into account.

Only 6% of French see it as a success.

The "Great Debate" will have cost 12 millions €, trice its initial budget declared by the government which was 4 millions €.
 
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