Magic The Gathering

[Honka Honka Burning Love]

That man is busted.

>Spelunking
>Creature

It is busted just because it goes in Amulet Titan and can be tutored by Green Sun Zenith and Summoner's Pact.

 

[Flexo]

>Spelunking
>Creature

It is busted just because it goes in Amulet Titan and can be tutored by Green Sun Zenith and Summoner's Pact.

Or popped out of the command zone.

 

[alogatog]

Im really excited to build Minstrel since ill finally have an excuse to use my tap lands. Also thinking of doing Ardbert deck just to see how aggro can i go with Orzhov colors

It's a massive shame that an amulet of vigor commander is posted onto such a stupid commander.
One of my biggest complaints with stuff being printed for commander is not that EDH is getting support, but that the cards are profoundly stupidly easy to build around, to the point the deck is pretty much already made. If you build this commander around towns, half the deck is already done- with all the staples, you also obviously have all the towns, and then the rest is just ramp. Sooooo boring. Half the reason I don't really like edh.
No hate, though. I hope you have fun building that deck (no snarkiness intended)

 

[00R-Gundam]

It's a massive shame that an amulet of vigor commander is posted onto such a stupid commander.
One of my biggest complaints with stuff being printed for commander is not that EDH is getting support, but that the cards are profoundly stupidly easy to build around, to the point the deck is pretty much already made. If you build this commander around towns, half the deck is already done- with all the staples, you also obviously have all the towns, and then the rest is just ramp. Sooooo boring. Half the reason I don't really like edh.
No hate, though. I hope you have fun building that deck (no snarkiness intended)

I get it and i understand, is just that minstrel will be my first 5C and the ability to have lands enter untap is a blessing on my wallet since i dont feel like busting hundreds for a manabase currently. My only gripe is the dogshit second ability of him. Probably use him as training for when i eventually build Najeela.

 

[Maratus volans]

the cards are profoundly stupidly easy to build around, to the point the deck is pretty much already made

This is a byproduct of EDH becoming the default way to play Magic. The game is already tremendously complicated for new players, and one of the things they struggle with is how to build decks. EDH makes that process even more complicated than usual, so one way to offset that is for WotC to print a bunch of commanders that scream, "Put all the cards with THIS keyword/subtype/whatever in your deck, idiot." It makes a lot of the experience boring and on rails, but if you're going to insist on using EDH to onboard new players then it's a necessary evil.

 

[alogatog]

This is a byproduct of EDH becoming the default way to play Magic. The game is already tremendously complicated for new players, and one of the things they struggle with is how to build decks. EDH makes that process even more complicated than usual, so one way to offset that is for WotC to print a bunch of commanders that scream, "Put all the cards with THIS keyword/subtype/whatever in your deck, idiot." It makes a lot of the experience boring and on rails, but if you're going to insist on using EDH to onboard new players then it's a necessary evil.

It’s only a necessary evil because introducing with EDH is evil.
Also, relevant: post #6,666

 

[Flexo]

This is a byproduct of EDH becoming the default way to play Magic. The game is already tremendously complicated for new players, and one of the things they struggle with is how to build decks. EDH makes that process even more complicated than usual, so one way to offset that is for WotC to print a bunch of commanders that scream, "Put all the cards with THIS keyword/subtype/whatever in your deck, idiot." It makes a lot of the experience boring and on rails, but if you're going to insist on using EDH to onboard new players then it's a necessary evil.

Which is why I keep going back that they really should have used Brawl as the on-boarding. Yeah it was standard-commander, but part of what makes standard "work" is that it constrains the card pool and helps newbies get a grasp on the game before they jump in the deep end. (Plus the brawl decks per sets would be much more affordable for newbies.)

Or IT WOULD if the damn thing wasn't so bloated now. (paging @Honka Honka Burning Love)

I'm still shocked they keep trying to keep Pioneer alive and not just restore "extended" (which is almost is).

It’s only a necessary evil because introducing with EDH is evil.
Also, relevant: post #6,666

Very befitting with your PFP my good sir.

 

[Honka Honka Burning Love]

I'm still shocked they keep trying to keep Pioneer alive

They have a funny way of doing it

"Lets let Pheonix and Rakdos be king of the pile forever...unless a broken combo happens that we don't fix for a year (ITS HAPPENED FUCKING TWICE)"

 

[Sugriva]

Fagic: The gathering of men who have sex with other men.

 

[Rich Evans Ayypologist]

Which is why I keep going back that they really should have used Brawl as the on-boarding.

The brackets themselves make sense as the onboarding. The brackets are basically just different formats, and EDH should follow the example of 60-card and have these splits. If 60-card splits its formats based on date of release, EDH should split its formats on mechanical grounds with a hint towards power-level.

Bracket-1 decks are extremely easy to understand. Bracket-2 decks can build much more heavily into synergy, but still don't invite degenerate loops that take 50 years to resolve. A new player that loses to Exquisite Blood + Sanguine Bond is going to be surprised that such a thing is even possible, and maybe they'll find it anticlimactic. That is so much better than having them sit there completely confused as a guy takes a 25m+ turn on a Bolas's Citadel, speeding through cards and effects that the new player won't even have the time to read... only for them to die to a combo they don't understand.

If we look at brackets as:
Kitchen Table -> Standard -> Modern -> Legacy -> Vintage, it makes a lot more sense. No-one's mad that standard has some fairly simple combos, but we don't expect to see ad naus in standard. I build almost exclusively bracket-2 because gamechanger cards are almost without exception completely fucking boring, and the amount of variety you can unlock when people can't just play one-card combos to end the game after complaining about having been correctly prioritized is liberating. It's easy to get new players into that format. It's impossible to get them into a format where some guy sits there taking 15m turns to activate and resolve 8 different tutors and 10 separate top activations.

 

[alogatog]

Which is why I keep going back that they really should have used Brawl as the on-boarding.

I think brawl is honestly a failure of a format. I always read it as WOTC first trying to really break into EDH and appropriate it.
I am NOT an EDH hater. I'm a modern EDH hater. Back when EDH wasn't the dominant format, brawl was WOTCs try at appropriating something good that they didnt have full control over (since the commander committee wasnt owned by them). At least that's my conspiracy theorist spergout. Maybe it's not true and I've always just seen it as such. Just a failed attempt to take over something good.

In all seriousness though, I don't hate modern EDH, I just hate how it has become magic, because it plays very differently to what mtg is/should be/plays everywhere else. That's fine, do what you want. But don't say it's how magic is or should be. It is quintessentially about breaking magic, playing "unfairly". The base archetypes and skills do not apply in EDH. It's like introducing someone to portal by teaching them how to speedrun it. It's a completely foreign concept.

To properly onboard someone, you gotta show them some simple cards and explain combat, explain mana, explain turns. Slowly move bit by bit until they understand the game. Then they can truly appreciate EDH for what it is/should be

Spoiler: TL;DR

Kill EDH players. Behead EDH players. Roundhouse kick EDH players into the concrete. Slam dunk EDH babies into the trashcan. Crucify filthy netdeckers. Defecate in an EDH players food. Launch EDH players into the sun. Stir fry EDH players in a wok. Toss EDH players into active volcanoes. Urinate into an EDH players gas tank. Judo throw EDH players into a wood chipper. Twist EDH players heads off. Report EDH players to the IRS. Karate chop EDH players in half. Curb stomp pregnant EDH players. Trap EDH players in quicksand. Crush EDH players in the trash compactor. Liquefy EDH players in a vat of acid. Eat EDH players. Dissect EDH players. Exterminate EDH players in the gas chamber. Stomp EDH players skulls with steel toed boots. Cremate EDH players in the oven. Lobotomize EDH players. Mandatory abortions for EDH players. Grind EDH players fetuses in the garbage disposal. Drown EDH players in sweaty hair grease. Vaporize EDH players with a ray gun. Kick old EDH players down the stairs. Feed EDH players to alligators. Slice EDH players with a katana.

 

[Flexo]

The brackets themselves make sense as the onboarding. The brackets are basically just different formats, and EDH should follow the example of 60-card and have these splits. If 60-card splits its formats based on date of release, EDH should split its formats on mechanical grounds with a hint towards power-level.

Bracket-1 decks are extremely easy to understand. Bracket-2 decks can build much more heavily into synergy, but still don't invite degenerate loops that take 50 years to resolve. A new player that loses to Exquisite Blood + Sanguine Bond is going to be surprised that such a thing is even possible, and maybe they'll find it anticlimactic. That is so much better than having them sit there completely confused as a guy takes a 25m+ turn on a Bolas's Citadel, speeding through cards and effects that the new player won't even have the time to read... only for them to die to a combo they don't understand.

If we look at brackets as:
Kitchen Table -> Standard -> Modern -> Legacy -> Vintage, it makes a lot more sense. No-one's mad that standard has some fairly simple combos, but we don't expect to see ad naus in standard. I build almost exclusively bracket-2 because gamechanger cards are almost without exception completely fucking boring, and the amount of variety you can unlock when people can't just play one-card combos to end the game after complaining about having been correctly prioritized is liberating. It's easy to get new players into that format. It's impossible to get them into a format where some guy sits there taking 15m turns to activate and resolve 8 different tutors and 10 separate top activations.

You're not wrong - the question is how do you get newbies into that. It's fine if they have a mentor/guide to walk them through that stuff. Heck I've seen newbies themselves try building Exquisite Blood + Sanguine Bond decks when they see those cards. It's part of the fun. (and then you bring out your mono red deck and show them why counting on a killer combo isn't always a good idea).

Again you're absolutely right, the question is always how you get somebody into that level when some newbies may be coming in completely blind.

I think brawl is honestly a failure of a format. I always read it as WOTC first trying to really break into EDH and appropriate it.
I am NOT an EDH hater. I'm a modern EDH hater. Back when EDH wasn't the dominant format, brawl was WOTCs try at appropriating something good that they didnt have full control over (since the commander committee wasnt owned by them). At least that's my conspiracy theorist spergout. Maybe it's not true and I've always just seen it as such. Just a failed attempt to take over something good.

I remember back in the day - hell we probably have posts on this thread about it - but yes, back when Brawl was made everyone called it "standard commander" and... well basically echoed your point about 'taking over something' and also trying to make more money.

But here's the thing I've just noticed with kids (because a lot of my friends have kids now and I sometimes bring over jumpstart packs to give) and new players: They do latch on to cards. They'll get something big and shiny and be all "that's cool! I want to play that card!"

Well one of the disappointments of regular magic - especially when you're starting out - is that you can run a lot of games and never ever get to play your shiny awesome card. Commander style formats do lean into this tendency by letting you put that shiny card into a special spot and it's always there, nobody can take it away from you (until they mind control it).

Even physically a 60 card deck is much easier for kids with smaller hands to shuffle than a massive 100 card behemoth.

WOTC definitely screwed up the Brawl rollout. They brought it out right as EDH was climbing in popularity and pitched it in the worst way possible such that everyone interpreted it as just a greedy cash grab. Had they waited on releasing it - or even just explained that it was more oriented to newbies and lighter games, I think it would have gone a lot better.

Of course it did flourish on Arena because there for awhile, it was the only way to "play" commander on Arena. Now "brawl" is very technically just 100 card games on Arena with their funky card pool. If you want to play (or build) brawl decks in real life or on sites like moxfield, you have to specify "standard brawl."

 

[Honka Honka Burning Love]

Them not making Brawl Multiplayer on Arena is one of the reasons it kind of died.

The Overpowered bullshit Brawl Commanders (and Arcane signet..fuck the Brawl decks for Arcane Signet alone) did not help..but if you had Commander at Home on Arena people would have at least been interested enough to play it more.

Instead we get "HERE IS VIVI...and EVERY BAD COUNTERSPELL!"

 

[PonderosaPete]

Tiny leader is fun.

 

[00R-Gundam]

I dont know if its a hot take but i believe EDH is the worst format to start in magic since youll be overwhelm by so many information at the same time that most people will nope the fuck out. Sure you can buy a precon and just play, but then you remember that not everyone is playing precons and that there are people(like me) that are running obscure mechanics and cards that normal player will probably never see. Is better to have them experience standard a bit and then throw them into EDH so that way they wont get massively overwhelmed and they will slowly gain knowledge at a more comfortable pace instead of throwing them into EDH from the get go.

 

[Rich Evans Ayypologist]

You're not wrong - the question is how do you get newbies into that.

You know how they had those 'intro-level' commander decks a year or so back that were cheaper than the normal precons? You do that, all reprints, and you lower the price down to $15. You try to design them as bracket-1.

Viola, presto, you have an easy in for new players with decks everyone can play and understand that don't do stupid, retarded shit and from which everyone can learn the basics. Duel Decks were the best way to get into 1v1, so maybe do a four-player set of simple decks and sell it on the cheap - $40 for four bracket-1 decks of reprints, and it's "game-night-in-a-box."

Frankly, the success of JumpStart has me sitting here wondering... like, why not do that with commander? All reprints with the List symbol at the bottom, cheapo cards sold in random boxes all on the same low, easy, intro-level power-level. Instead of wasting so much money on packaging, they could just put them in tiny little boxes - like event decks or those old, old, old 'starter decks' from back in the day.

All this to say - there's a million and one good ideas, and WOTC won't go with it because they're busy trying to figure out how to fit more text on a card so they don't get shown up by Hearthstone, a game that no-one plays anymore.

 

[Allied-Mastercomputer]

Tiny leader is fun.

Fr fr, tiny leaders was what should’ve been the norm.

 

[Flexo]

You know how they had those 'intro-level' commander decks a year or so back that were cheaper than the normal precons? You do that, all reprints, and you lower the price down to $15. You try to design them as bracket-1.

Yeah that's what I mean when I saw "brawl decks." Those you could get down to around 15 probably. Plus IMO, brawl being standard limited I think is better as it allows you to make a smaller deck each focused around one of the new mechanics in a set for newbies to acclimate to. (Yes, I am still a bit bitter at the Mardu precon having a grand total of like 2 "mobilize" cards.)

I still bust out the R/G dragon version of those for the lulz sometime.

Frankly, the success of JumpStart has me sitting here wondering... like, why not do that with commander? All reprints with the List symbol at the bottom, cheapo cards sold in random boxes all on the same low, easy, intro-level power-level. Instead of wasting so much money on packaging, they could just put them in tiny little boxes - like event decks or those old, old, old 'starter decks' from back in the day.

I like that idea too. They're halfway there with foundations jumpstart having like... a legendary in every pack. I think they're trying to grope their way to that idea.

Do love me some commander draft sets though.

All this to say - there's a million and one good ideas, and WOTC won't go with it because they're busy trying to figure out how to fit more text on a card so they don't get shown up by Hearthstone, a game that no-one plays anymore.

It would be nice if instead of releasing monthly standard expansions WOTC would try with like... more experimental products. Like I don't mind the "remastered" reprint sets.

 

[SIMON THE PIEMAN]

I dont know if its a hot take but i believe EDH is the worst format to start in magic since youll be overwhelm by so many information at the same time that most people will nope the fuck out.

This is how I started out with MtG. It wasn't that bad because the basics of the game itself aren't that hard to understand and to learn. The fact that most cards work as written and have reminder text on them also helps a lot.

I did however initially struggle with a few aspects of the game such as the stack (pretty simple in retrospect but it took me a while to wrap my head around it), priority (mostly because some people tend to assume that someone passed the priority when they did not necessarily do it) and "hidden", unintuitive rules (what you do mean tokens trigger graveyard effects as if these were cards but cease to exist if I blink them as if these weren't cards? Wait how come you can activate Spore Frog when Split Second is on the stack? etc).

Deckbuilding was a pain to learn. Most precons are terrible and I did the mistake of trying to emulate the structure of the average precon with having a certain amount of creatures, instants, sorceries, artifacts, enchantments and lands. There's also a problem that very few deckbuilders on the internet explain their choices and intent and as a beginner I had no idea how a good deck looks like. Especially since lots of heavily upvoted decks on sites like Moxfield are cEDH decks. EDHREC is also pretty bad as it suggests random piles of cards and then these choices are reinforced by the people who make their decks based on EDHREC suggestions, creating a self-reinforcing loop.

There's also tons of people giving terrible advice. The worst is probably the trend of "budget" cards where most of the cards proposed are usually pretty bad or subpar at best. The example I hate the most - because I fell for it - was the idea of a budget WUBRG mana base. In my experience it is simply not possible to build something that is both cheap and works well, yet the internet is full of people telling you to cram in some $0.23 lands and mana rocks into your deck that no one actually uses. I ended up with a pile of crap that was consistently missing one or even two colors in play. I just wanted to cast some huge dragons and hit people in the face.

 

[00R-Gundam]

Not to sound like some asshole but if youre building a 5C deck and your mana base consists of tap lands then youre setting yourself for failure. Youre better off just running basics at that point. I dont mind the concept of "budget" cards but most budget options are so shit that youre better off just proxying or just replace that spot with something else. When i started edh i used to look this channel called Commander Quarters or something of the like and it really ruined my perception of a budget version of a deck but his suggestion were so shit(in retrospect) that one day i said fuck it and just started to slowly just buy the staples and "expensive" cards just to avoid the "budget" pit fall.