Mega Rad Gun Thread

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The punishment wasn't harsher because neither of them were charged for manslaughter, just False Official Statements. Most likely interviewed by OSI and lied about the Airman that killed himself being responsible for the Sergeant's death. The UCMJ has minimum and maximum penalties that can be applied depending on the charge similar to how there's minimum and maximum penalties on the civilian side depending on what you're charged with. False Official Statements fall under Article 107 and carries a maximum punishment of a Dishonorable Discharge or Bad Conduct Discharge. That said, it is surprising that the book wasn't thrown at them considering how enlisted usually get shit on in court martials compared to officers. Each base has a docket with their recently finished court cases if anyone has any interest in looking at the Article they were charged with/outcome, but the news story pretty much covered everything the docket covers.

Edit: The fact they got court martialed is also pretty serious and most likely how the Air Force is trying to publicly show they were punished. False Official Statements are usually handled at the squadron level with an LOR or Article 15 for smaller stuff like the fatty lying on his PT Test or the malingerer lying about being at a doctor's appointment to skip out on work.
 
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WASR96 said:
The punishment wasn't harsher because neither of them were charged for manslaughter, just False Official Statements. Most likely interviewed by OSI and lied about the Airman that killed himself being responsible for the Sergeant's death. The UCMJ has minimum and maximum penalties that can be applied depending on the charge similar to how there's minimum and maximum penalties on the civilian side depending on what you're charged with. False Official Statements fall under Article 107 and carries a maximum punishment of a Dishonorable Discharge or Bad Conduct Discharge. That said, it is surprising that the book wasn't thrown at them considering how enlisted usually get shit on in court martials compared to officers. Each base has a docket with their recently finished court cases if anyone has any interest in looking at the Article they were charged with/outcome, but the news story pretty much covered everything the docket covers.

Edit: The fact they got court martialed is also pretty serious and most likely how the Air Force is trying to publicly show they were punished. False Official Statements are usually handled at the squadron level with an LOR or Article 15 for smaller stuff like the fatty lying on his PT Test or the malingerer lying about being at a doctor's appointment to skip out on work.
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Yeah, but its about to be a real big problem.

Osama Bin Laden said:
is it possible that sig could sue the government for slander lol
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No, but Sig can get their lobbyists to call for hearings in Congress. Which is an unforgivable sin in the military. Better to take your administrative punishment on the chin then to turn your drama into a political hand grenade. What's a real big problem here is that Sig calling for hearings is justified. Who gave the order to suspend the contracts and appropriation to Sig based on this event? Who lied to make this happen? What started as a petty level fuck up has escalated to national level scrutiny that could have flag ranked officers being hauled before civilians in suits.

Generals haaaaaaaate it when this happens, and if some idiot Lieutenant Colonel or worse, a Captain, is the officer on the spot for the incident causing such scrutiny, your career is fucking over.
 
AGPinochet said:
SAR states that The PSS pistol and it's 7.62x41mm SP-4 ammunition pushes a 155gr bullet at around 620fps. The PSS-2, the modernized successor uses a proprietary 7.62x43mm SP-16 cartridge that is "more powerful"

It was evidently lethal enough to kill people.

Math class was s long time ago but I wonder if lethality wouldn't be better served by a lighter projectile, Because I remember reading somewhere that velocity has a 1.3x multiplier on energy compared to mass.

I have no doubt that if you really put a lot of effort and modern technology into it you could make a 50mm long case that has the performance of .380 ACP. And with a 100mm Case something resembling a subsonic .300 blackout loading.
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Well, a .38 Special, 158 grain LRN going 750ish fps will absolutely kill someone, so I would imagine something a bit weaker would kill someone too. A lot of old black powder handguns were on par with the power of the round being discussed, and they would definitely kill someone if utilized properly. The main issue with lighter rounds is that you increase the energy, but decrease the momentum, and also reduce the amount of time they are under pressure in the barrel. There's a lot of variables involved in projectile performance, and maybe their testing determined that was the "sweet spot" for what they were going for.
DEBIRU MAN said:
If you have the stock hinged upper, you can buy this brace for the regular stock.

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Thanks for the info. Does not seem I have the hinged upper. It's a SDP Enhanced Gen 2, for reference.
The Dude said:
What mounting system for stocks do you have on your Vector. I've been looking at a lot of stocks and braces for both my Vector and my F22. I came really close to getting the Strike Industries Dual Folding brace. Its all metal, can fold to either side without modifications, and there is a cheek riser you can buy for it to make it a bit more comfortable. I kinda regret not going with it for my F22, but I'm also pretty happy with the brace I did get since it's only temporary until I SBR it next year.
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Seems like it's a threaded swivel sling mount. There's adapters for picatinny and such out there that seem decent, so I have a lot of flexibility in what I put on, but that's also why I am not sure what to get. Your Strike Industries brace seems pretty nice, and is a bit cheaper than the A3, though there's fewer options for things like length of pull and such. I appreciate the info, thank you.
 
mindlessobserver said:
Yeah, but its about to be a real big problem
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Most definitely. They may not have caught a dishonorable or BCD, but come reenlistment time these two sure as fuck are being shown the door. At a minimum, whoever the officer was at AFGSC that decided to suspend the M18 is also going to be searching for a new job soon as well.
 
https://x.com/PrintsandtheRev/status/1984754033156853779
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(40k fans eat your heart out)
 
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Fount of BadSpeak said:
The main issue with lighter rounds is that you increase the energy, but decrease the momentum
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Velocity retention over distance is kind of irrelevant for guns like these, I would assume the designers never intended them to be fired at distances greater than a hallway. For a Hypothetical captive piston submachine gun the barrel would be longer (5-8 inches) but that's irrelevant because captive piston projectiles reach their maximum energy right before engaging the rifling.


Imagine it though, a super short smg firjng optimized 50-55mm long cyclindrical captive piston rounds. Reaching 125db muzzle report easily without a suppressor. The only real source of noise it the actual action cycling. No muzzle flash, reduced sound and thermal signature
 
mindlessobserver said:
I now have ALL the questions.

And I imagine Sig has ALL the questions too, because this incident has been a brand name nightmare for them. If it was all fabricated, this is some massive damage to an American arms manufacturer. Legitimately enough damage to make a company consider hiring hit men.

I am getting distinct vibes shit went south, the senior NCO's on the spot tried to hush things up. When that failed their commanding officers made the decision to try and bury this, but then it got out to the media and an attempt was made to circle wagons, and now that this effort has failed heads are going to fucking roll. This is starting to look like one of those situations where if everyone had just come clean at the start the fuss and muss would have been manageable.

But instead everyone involved on the spot decided to ask the question "What is the price of lies?" In their case the price is starting to look like a reactor core explosion instead of a failed pressure test.
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It's okay, I've got a guy working on this case.
reacher-season-4-on-prime-video-1024x576.webp
 
AGPinochet said:
SAR states that The PSS pistol and it's 7.62x41mm SP-4 ammunition pushes a 155gr bullet at around 620fps. The PSS-2, the modernized successor uses a proprietary 7.62x43mm SP-16 cartridge that is "more powerful"

It was evidently lethal enough to kill people.

Math class was s long time ago but I wonder if lethality wouldn't be better served by a lighter projectile, Because I remember reading somewhere that velocity has a 1.3x multiplier on energy compared to mass.

I have no doubt that if you really put a lot of effort and modern technology into it you could make a 50mm long case that has the performance of .380 ACP. And with a 100mm Case something resembling a subsonic .300 blackout loading.
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It's about on par with most .32 rounds which are perfectly lethal enough but lack the energy or penetration to go through wood boards or car doors which is basically doctrine for police forces at this point, which is probably what excludes them for general consideration

also KE = (1/2)mass*velocity^2. you get way more energy out of velocity than you do mass but you lose inertia. a lighter bullet could be propelled faster easier for more energy but i think there's probably limitations for the pressure vessel inside of the cartridge that prevent it from working beyond a certain level of internal pressure, especially if they're engineering the device to still be as silent as possible under adverse circumstances. at that point the only way to increase energy would be to increase the mass of the bullet
 
AGPinochet said:
Velocity retention over distance is kind of irrelevant for guns like these, I would assume the designers never intended them to be fired at distances greater than a hallway. For a Hypothetical captive piston submachine gun the barrel would be longer (5-8 inches) but that's irrelevant because captive piston projectiles reach their maximum energy right before engaging the rifling.


Imagine it though, a super short smg firjng optimized 50-55mm long cyclindrical captive piston rounds. Reaching 125db muzzle report easily without a suppressor. The only real source of noise it the actual action cycling. No muzzle flash, reduced sound and thermal signature
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I am just spitballing here, I have no idea what their rationale was. Mainly just pointing out that a bullet going that speed will absolutely fuck someone up, regardless of whether it's the ideal choice or not.
 
Pizdec said:
So lying to your superiors about how someone dies only gets you a slap on the wrist?
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Total Annihilation said:
Given it’s the military and how it tends to runs its courts, I’m surprised the sentence wasn’t harsher.
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To tl;dr:
One suspect already offed himself, the other two guys are basically guilty of making false reports. @WASR96 covers the spergifics well well in his post.
They would have grounds to basically go after them for conspiracy/accessory/accessory-after-the-fact
They are very likely letting it go at that because @mindlessobserver points out I doubt these three enlisted came up with this clever plan on their own, and so if they were charged with that every SNCO and Officer they talked to is now in the crosshairs.
So they are being let off with False Statements and losing rank because everyone wants this to go away with the minimum of fuss, and all blame put on the shooter since he's dead.

What these guys got seems minor to civies but is pretty big for guys in the military. They got admin demotions, which means their duties aren't affected but their career progression is. This is also on their record for any attempts at boards, schools, or awards. And depending on their job, this is likely to fuck them pretty hard if they want to reenlist.

Taser Confetti said:
He's probably getting a bad conduct discharge afterwards.
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Depends on the rest of his service record. But the military doesn't like giving our anything other than honorabe except for a long trail of fuckups because of the number of retards who get a civie lawyer after a couple years and sob about how it affects their lives (and keeps them from that sweet vet-rate home loan, which is why they got the lawyer) for that one screw up.
So unless there is a long history of massive fucking up such the adjudicator in the the future will just be "fucking lol you kidding me?", they'll usually boot you with a honorable unless someone has it in for you.

Osama Bin Laden said:
is it possible that sig could sue the government for slander lol
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Sort answer: No.
Longer answer: If Sig is denied a government contract they will have immediate grounds to contest, so I expect Sig will get some sort of quiet reach-around.
 
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Ghostse said:
pretty big for guys in the military
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Yep. I didn't look at what rank these two were, but the article mentioned Airman. Even if they were SrA demoted to A1C, this will be visible if/when they get that E-4 stripe back which will likely lead to a 2/Do Not Promote or whatever the Air Force calls it for Enlisted Performance Reports these days which means they're definitely not making SSgt. They're security forces too which means no chance of going to CATM/K-9 school which means they're going to be stuck doing missile security for the rest of their enlistment which is considered one of the shittiest posts in an already shitty career field. Even though they didn't catch a discharge, they can certainly expect their commander to remember this, since he definitely caught flak from this as well, and they'll most likely receive Other Than Honorable discharges, which is still just as devastating for them. I've known a few shitbags who didn't do enough to receive dishonorable, but enough to get OTH, and civilian employers are always wise enough to question why every other vet that applied has Honorable but this person has a different discharge type. If they had hopes of becoming civilian cops on the outside, that application just went down like a sack of bricks for them.
 
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