Mega Rad Gun Thread

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Went to the range today and learned that I've developed a significant flinch with my .380. I managed to stay in line horizontally with the black circle on all the shots but around half of them ended up far below, in the 7 & 6 rings, of the B-8 targets I was using. I haven't had this as a problem before so to notice this develop before my eyes was pretty disheartening. (:_(
 
sounds more like anticipation than flinching.
Flinching is always before the shot goes off though, bullets go so fast bumping the barrel of something like an AR-10 after primer ignition won't do anything at that distance.
 
I am debating if I should buy a cheap lower and hold it like an investment piece. And then either build on it or sell it later.
 
Flinching is always before the shot goes off though, bullets go so fast bumping the barrel of something like an AR-10 after primer ignition won't do anything at that distance.
i mean, he's saying ".380" which is usually shorthand for 9x17mm / .380 ACP / 9mm Short. anticipating recoil will usually dip the muzzle low at the shot because the wrist is breaking immediately prior to the trigger squeeze in order to "absorb recoil" and i've seen this pretty commonly with smaller, snappy pistols and pistols that have a sharper recoil impulse than typical combined with a lighter than typical profile: PPK/s, PM, Glock 33, et c.

you can also get lower then expected on a target if you're trying to "push" the gun forward with the strong hand's web during a presentation especially from holstered as there's a reflex there when grasping an object to hold it tighter when it's further away from the body when you aren't consciously trying to let it go.

a flinch doesn't always happen prior to a shot, but alongside it. in the first form i've observed it result in "wiggling" the front or rear sight, causing a loss of focus on the target and an over emphasis on the trigger break, resulting in scattering the shot. another form is with attempting to under or overcorrect trigger engagement and this tends to pull shots left or right. the last one is changes in grip pressure where the whole hand is involved in the trigger squeeze and this can lead to stringing vertically, which is close to what's being described.

between recoil anticipation and "whole hand" trigger squeezing (which can apply a pressure differential to different parts of the grip and subtly change the point of aim as the trigger is pulled), for smaller firearms it tends to be recoil anticipation as the snappier recoil in experienced shooters can lead to trying to reduce the impact to the web of the hand. this develops over time as a new shooter develops bad habits, while the latter is an experienced shooter trying to control the firearm in a way that doesn't work for smaller guns.

at least that's my theory on it. without seeing video or targets it's tough to say one way or the other. one good thing to try (and everyone likes to shoot more) is to swap to a very similar gun in an alternate caliber, or the same caliber in a differently shaped frame. like if you're shooting a single stack .380, try a single stack 9mm. see if the problem persists. it might boil down to a combination of how the frame interacts and supports/resists the palm while firing, to the caliber being a little too snappy in the particular frame that it's in.

i doubt the other two common causes apply: horribly aligned sights (this would be really obvious and relatively consistent), or something specific to the ammunition (inconsistent loading).

if he was talking about a rifle, then yeah i missed that and it wouldn't be anticipation.
 
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i mean, he's saying ".380" which is usually shorthand for 9x17mm / .380 ACP / 9mm Short. anticipating recoil will usually dip the muzzle low at the shot because the wrist is breaking immediately prior to the trigger squeeze in order to "absorb recoil" and i've seen this pretty commonly with smaller, snappy pistols and pistols that have a sharper recoil impulse than typical combined with a lighter than typical profile: PPK/s, PM, Glock 33, et c.

you can also get lower then expected on a target if you're trying to "push" the gun forward with the strong hand's web during a presentation especially from holstered as there's a reflex there when grasping an object to hold it tighter when it's further away from the body when you aren't consciously trying to let it go.

a flinch doesn't always happen prior to a shot, but alongside it. in the first form i've observed it result in "wiggling" the front or rear sight, causing a loss of focus on the target and an over emphasis on the trigger break, resulting in scattering the shot. another form is with attempting to under or overcorrect trigger engagement and this tends to pull shots left or right. the last one is changes in grip pressure where the whole hand is involved in the trigger squeeze and this can lead to stringing vertically, which is close to what's being described.

between recoil anticipation and "whole hand" trigger squeezing (which can apply a pressure differential to different parts of the grip and subtly change the point of aim as the trigger is pulled), for smaller firearms it tends to be recoil anticipation as the snappier recoil in experienced shooters can lead to trying to reduce the impact to the web of the hand. this develops over time as a new shooter develops bad habits, while the latter is an experienced shooter trying to control the firearm in a way that doesn't work for smaller guns.

at least that's my theory on it. without seeing video or targets it's tough to say one way or the other. one good thing to try (and everyone likes to shoot more) is to swap to a very similar gun in an alternate caliber, or the same caliber in a differently shaped frame. like if you're shooting a single stack .380, try a single stack 9mm. see if the problem persists. it might boil down to a combination of how the frame interacts and supports/resists the palm while firing, to the caliber being a little too snappy in the particular frame that it's in.

i doubt the other two common causes apply: horribly aligned sights (this would be really obvious and relatively consistent), or something specific to the ammunition (inconsistent loading).

if he was talking about a rifle, then yeah i missed that and it wouldn't be anticipation.
Good stuff. That said, "whole hand" squeezing generally results in shots landing on your weak side. More people should spend more time dry-firing to build muscle memory though.

As for the long range guy, .308 or 6.5 Mememore would both be fine picks. .270 is doable, but you'll likely be rolling your own - the others are more available in factory match loadings. Anything beyond that, I defer to the sammich - my idea of long range is 300m with .22 LR.
 
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Went to the range today and learned that I've developed a significant flinch with my .380. I managed to stay in line horizontally with the black circle on all the shots but around half of them ended up far below, in the 7 & 6 rings, of the B-8 targets I was using. I haven't had this as a problem before so to notice this develop before my eyes was pretty disheartening. (:_(
Get proper sight alignment and picture. Focus on the front sight and nothing else. Let the target become a blur, don't even look at the target. Pull the trigger with consistent force, don't slap or jerk it, and let the shot surprise you. You'll be surprised that you hit what you aim at.

EDIT: This also assumes proper grip mechanics. Make sure when you grip the pistol, you're making a V between your thumb and hand. Use your support hand like a vice and make sure your thumb is pointing straight out on your support hand thumb, with your strong side thumb over it. Don't forget to push your shoulders out when you aim, this absorbs recoil, even though it's only a .380.
 
Good stuff. That said, "whole hand" squeezing generally results in shots landing on your weak side. More people should spend more time dry-firing to build muscle memory though.

As for the long range guy, .308 or 6.5 Mememore would both be fine picks. .270 is doable, but you'll likely be rolling your own - the others are more available in factory match loadings. Anything beyond that, I defer to the sammich - my idea of long range is 300m with .22 LR.
Good post, yeah.

One tip I heard before was to have someone else load you a mag and slip some snap caps/dummy rounds into it at random. That way you expect an actual shot and can visibly see the flinch/anticipation when the round doesn't go off.

For the long range thing, leaning towards 6.5CM but the extra energy of .300 WM may be worth it if I take the setup hunting at some point.
 
One tip I heard before was to have someone else load you a mag and slip some snap caps/dummy rounds into it at random. That way you expect an actual shot and can visibly see the flinch/anticipation when the round doesn't go off.
Whoever told you that is wrong. That drill is for learning how to deal with and clear malfunctions under fire.
 
Whoever told you that is wrong. That drill is for learning how to deal with and clear malfunctions under fire.
That too, but I heard it in a marksmanship context, more used for precision rifle training in Eastern bloc countries. It's a visual aid to show how much the shooter is jerking the barrel when they pull the trigger anticipating an actual shot. It's definitely a helpful exercise in multiple contexts.
 
That too, but I heard it in a marksmanship context, more used for precision rifle training in Eastern bloc countries. It's a visual aid to show how much the shooter is jerking the barrel when they pull the trigger anticipating an actual shot. It's definitely a helpful exercise in multiple contexts.
I've never heard of that, but Slavs are fucking weird. You would think they'd learn breathing first when training on precision rifles instead of going full tard sperg out.
 
I've never heard of that, but Slavs are fucking weird. You would think they'd learn breathing first when training on precision rifles instead of going full tard sperg out.
It's not really standard practice but more of a way for instructors to work with chronic flinchers.

For some more Slav shenanigans, here's an old school Russian instructional video for snipers. No translation but enough of it is self-explanatory. Supposed to be based on the book "Art of Sniping" by Alexei Potapov, a Russian military shooting instructor.

 
It's not really standard practice but more of a way for instructors to work with chronic flinchers.

For some more Slav shenanigans, here's an old school Russian instructional video for snipers. No translation but enough of it is self-explanatory. Supposed to be based on the book "Art of Sniping" by Alexei Potapov, a Russian military shooting instructor.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=y5qF-lkzTuc
Was 'remove kebab' part of the curriculum?
 
Consulted someone more autistic than I and they said that dummy round thing is nowhere in this text :
signal-2021-08-09-213731.jpeg


which is still widely respected in the world of precision shooting.

I quote,

"The instruction from the seventies was to have the shooter dry fire under the watch of a coach on a white background instructing the shooter to pay close attention to the movement of the front sight during the breaking of the trigger and during follow through. Basically eliminating the extra stimuli of a target and recoil so the shooter can focus exclusively on the mechanics of a trigger pull and the effect on sight alignment. Later the same shooter will be observed again with live ammunition. Additional stimuli can be added like balancing a coin or an empty case on the rifle barrel."

It honestly does sound like something insane and made up for these purposes because high level precision shooting has what's called the SCATT system, which is basically this nifty IR laser device to show what's going on.
 
Consulted someone more autistic than I and they said that dummy round thing is nowhere in this text :
View attachment 2429069

which is still widely respected in the world of precision shooting.

I quote,

"The instruction from the seventies was to have the shooter dry fire under the watch of a coach on a white background instructing the shooter to pay close attention to the movement of the front sight during the breaking of the trigger and during follow through. Basically eliminating the extra stimuli of a target and recoil so the shooter can focus exclusively on the mechanics of a trigger pull and the effect on sight alignment. Later the same shooter will be observed again with live ammunition. Additional stimuli can be added like balancing a coin or an empty case on the rifle barrel."

It honestly does sound like something insane and made up for these purposes because high level precision shooting has what's called the SCATT system, which is basically this nifty IR laser device to show what's going on.
Yeah, that's exactly along the same lines. I heard about the balancing an empty case exercise, it works well. Found a reference to the dummy round thing in Potapov's book, same one the video is based on. Couldn't find an English version but the translation is below:
http://csef.ru/media/articles/4389/4389.PDF - Page #103, at the top.

"For the most incurable of flinchers the instructor imperceptibly substitutes their cartridges for ones with sand instead of powder. Why with sand? Powder in the cartridge feels and sounds the same way as sand. For the persistently flinching cadet, waiting for a shot, their own deficiency becomes visual. After which the instructor makes cadet shoot dummy cartridges, from time to time hiding among them live cartridges. Thus, cadets are taught not to pay attention to the noise of the shot and recoil at all."
 
That said, "whole hand" squeezing generally results in shots landing on your weak side.
indeed it does on larger pistols that occupy most of the hand. on smaller pistols you get a cupping motion from the palm or pinky which moves the muzzle downwards to a degree more so than side to side typically. try it out. it's another topic to see how grips will also affect revolvers differently than automatics, where you see a muzzle rise instead.

One tip I heard before was to have someone else load you a mag and slip some snap caps/dummy rounds into it at random.
i've heard and done this for malfunction drills, but not for marksmanship other than to illustrate exaggerated flinching that the shooter couldn't detect otherwise. i've always used a coin to check steadiness. another technique is with a supported stance with a sling, to simply remove the shooting hand entirely and determine if the rifle moves much if at all. if it does, you are putting too much balance into the shooting hand and not allowing the support to aid properly.
 
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I was window shopping today about AR builds and was wondering as far as uppers and barrels go.

Which company usually has the best uppers and as far as barrels, I was thinking of going for a 20 inch barrel for an AR-15.

And is this 223 Wylde stuff good or a meme?

As far as furniture, I was thinking Magpul and since I am currently in California, buy stuff from Strike Industries for the internals.

I was looking into free floating handguards and I am surprised at how mloks are everywhere. I find it hard to work with mloks and been looking for picatinny quad rails.
 
I was window shopping today about AR builds and was wondering as far as uppers and barrels go.

Which company usually has the best uppers and as far as barrels, I was thinking of going for a 20 inch barrel for an AR-15.

And is this 223 Wylde stuff good or a meme?

As far as furniture, I was thinking Magpul and since I am currently in California, buy stuff from Strike Industries for the internals.

I was looking into free floating handguards and I am surprised at how mloks are everywhere. I find it hard to work with mloks and been looking for picatinny quad rails.

The last few AR-15s I've built used Aero stripped uppers and either Ballistic Advantage Hanson or Faxon pencil profile barrels. They've worked well for me and if you shop around, you can find some great deals online. Most of the bigger names are good stuff. Faxon, BA, Criterion, Rosco, etc. I'm sure there are some boutique brands making super nice stuff, but most of that is more than I want to spend usually.

.223 Wylde is just a slightly altered chamber that is supposed to allow for better accuracy with .223 than a standard 5.56 chamber would while still handling 5.56. I can't say I've noticed much of a difference between my 5.56 barrels and .223 Wylde ones.

To me, the places to make sure you don't skimp are the barrel and bolt carrier group, then maybe a fancy trigger - the rest is stuff that's nice to have fancier versions of, but not quite as important.

I love M-LOK - it makes for a more comfortable handguard and if you need picatinny, it's easy to just stick a segment on wherever you want.
 
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