Megathread Non-binary genders / Enbies - When Male and Female Aren't Special Enough

[Synthesizer Patel]

I really don't get what the big deal is with them putting their birth sex on documents like that. Like doctors could misdiagnose people for god knows what. Hell prescriptions might also get fucked up from it and that could have a really bad effect on the person on them. Surely their own health is more important than getting called "ze" by a medical professional?

I can see the reasoning if they’re on hormones or something else that would physically effect their bodies/health, but seeing as a lot of them only have “social dysphoria” it’s lrobably irrelevant. Anyway, I’d assume that doctors would have access to a database of your medical history, which includes your birth sex. Or maybe that’s not true in the USA. Either way, yeah, I agree that it’s oretty vital to tell a new doctor.

 

[neverendingmidi]

I can see the reasoning if they’re on hormones or something else that would physically effect their bodies/health, but seeing as a lot of them only have “social dysphoria” it’s lrobably irrelevant. Anyway, I’d assume that doctors would have access to a database of your medical history, which includes your birth sex. Or maybe that’s not true in the USA. Either way, yeah, I agree that it’s oretty vital to tell a new doctor.

Yeah, no. There’s no database of your health anywhere in the US. It was mandated by Obamacare, but there was no guideline written for what had to be in it, how it was supposed to work across state lines, how security was supposed to be set up for access, nothing.

So a bunch of companies started creating software to sell as this database, none of which compatible, all of which has different requirements to fill out, or only has checkboxes for stuff. A hospital would have your records from being treated there, but if you were in a car accident in one state, and had complications from it while on vacation in a different state, they would probably have to call the other hospital and have information emailed or faxed to them.

 

[Dr. Meme]

In this moment, I am euphoric. Not because of any phony socially constructed binary. But because, I am enlightened by my gender.

 

[Judes]

I can see the reasoning if they’re on hormones or something else that would physically effect their bodies/health

It doesn't matter. No matter how deep in transition the person is, their sex still remains the same. Changes or differences from statistically normal and healthy individual, be they artificial or natural, are still experiences that only a person of one or another sex can physically have and live through.

 

[Synthesizer Patel]

It doesn't matter. No matter how deep in transition the person is, their sex still remains the same. Changes or differences from statistically normal and healthy individual, be they artificial or natural, are still experiences that only a person of one or another sex can physically have and live through.

I mean they should let them know that they’re trans, but an FtM on hormone treatment just putting “female” is missing out the whole story. Increased testosterone levels can lead to higher chances of heart attacks as well as ovarian cancers. So it makes sense to let the doctor know/leave a note on it, particularly if they’ve been on the hormones for a long while. Some medications respond differently to men/women specifically because of hormone levels in their blood.
And I can see a trans person circling their desired sex on a form, then having their birth sex as a note/addendum. So long as they let the doctor know, and they’re being sensible about it and not chimping out over having to “out” themselves.

If it’s just that they’re wearing a dress with short hair though, then who cares.

 

[Shit Waifu]

I seriously hope any doctor who has to deal with genderspecial bullshit like this just goes "I'll just put you down as 'female' since you're acting like a twat."

Well most of them are female, so it wouldn’t exactly be inaccurate.

 

[Helvetica Scenario]

Used to work in a doctor's office and I had someone register who had scratched out the Mr/Mrs/Miss option and replaced it with 'Mx'. I nearly asked her - of course she was a goddamn girl, and presenting as one - what her Tumblr was called, but didn't.

There was no option for 'Mx' on the computer system I was using, so I registered her as 'Ms' and got on with my day. You don't get an option for 'Other' or 'Genderqueer' or 'Special Snowflake' where it comes to any of the medical software I've used, because your doctor needs to know your physical sex. Medicine doesn't give a shit about anyone's po-mo gender bullshit, and consequently nor do medical administrators. You can tit around with your registration forms all you like, Tumblr. At the end of the day that form is going to be processed by a bored woman with a stack of them to go through. She's just going to roll her eyes and register said snowflake as whatever sex they were presenting as if she saw them, and whatever sex matches their name if she didn't. Congratulations, you just mildly inconvenienced a clerical worker on $10 an hour. Way to stick it to the man there, girls.

 

[Crunchy Leaf]

They want to act like biology doesn't real. And if you're a basic American, your biological sex matters less now than it has at any other point in history. Women don't have to do nothing but make babies for twenty years in the hopes that a few will survive to adulthood. You don't need a man's muscles to acquire food through hunting or strenuous agriculture, and considering that the US is 70% overweight, most men aren't that muscular to begin with.

But the doctor's office is the last place where biology does real, and it will continue to do so until we all get our brains uploaded to computers. Nothing enbies can do about it.

 

[Synthesizer Patel]

Used to work in a doctor's office and I had someone register who had scratched out the Mr/Mrs/Miss option and replaced it with 'Mx'. I nearly asked her - of course she was a goddamn girl, and presenting as one - what her Tumblr was called, but didn't.

There was no option for 'Mx' on the computer system I was using, so I registered her as 'Ms' and got on with my day. You don't get an option for 'Other' or 'Genderqueer' or 'Special Snowflake' where it comes to any of the medical software I've used, because your doctor needs to know your physical sex. Medicine doesn't give a shit about anyone's po-mo gender bullshit, and consequently nor do medical administrators. You can tit around with your registration forms all you like, Tumblr. At the end of the day that form is going to be processed by a bored woman with a stack of them to go through. She's just going to roll her eyes and register said snowflake as whatever sex they were presenting as if she saw them, and whatever sex matches their name if she didn't. Congratulations, you just mildly inconvenienced a clerical worker on $10 an hour. Way to stick it to the man there, girls.

That reminds me... a friend of mine a while back went down the "non-binary" route, and I humour her/hope she'll grow out of it, but hey. We don't talk so much now. Anyway, she managed to get her title changed on the NHS database, because they do offer that. I presume it's just on the address when they send you stuff/print out a prescription, and they still have "Sex" listed as F or M. Also it's in the drop-down menu along with titles like "Colonel" and "Earl", rather than getting top billing alongside "Mr" and "Ms".

So UK health service. Offers Mx as a title. Although it also has a health database that any doctor you see can look up and see your medical history, including birth gender. So it saves having to ask the genderclowns every time and have them pitching a fit. Maybe it's just the path of less resistance. The social media/societal power that the "trans"/"queer" crowd has can't really be underestimated.

There's a list of the companies/societies in the UK that offer Mx as a pronoun. It includes Oxford and Cambridge universities, which I guess shouldn't surprise me as much as it did.

Oh, and here's the example driver's licence they shared to showcase the pronoun in action:

Of course it's taken from a tumblr

 

[Meowthkip]

That reminds me... a friend of mine a while back went down the "non-binary" route, and I humour her/hope she'll grow out of it, but hey. We don't talk so much now. Anyway, she managed to get her title changed on the NHS database, because they do offer that. I presume it's just on the address when they send you stuff/print out a prescription, and they still have "Sex" listed as F or M. Also it's in the drop-down menu along with titles like "Colonel" and "Earl", rather than getting top billing alongside "Mr" and "Ms".

So UK health service. Offers Mx as a title. Although it also has a health database that any doctor you see can look up and see your medical history, including birth gender. So it saves having to ask the genderclowns every time and have them pitching a fit. Maybe it's just the path of less resistance. The social media/societal power that the "trans"/"queer" crowd has can't really be underestimated.

There's a list of the companies/societies in the UK that offer Mx as a pronoun. It includes Oxford and Cambridge universities, which I guess shouldn't surprise me as much as it did.

Oh, and here's the example driver's licence they shared to showcase the pronoun in action:

Of course it's taken from a tumblr

And of course they have a lip ring.

 

[FierceBrosnan]

Used to work in a doctor's office and I had someone register who had scratched out the Mr/Mrs/Miss option and replaced it with 'Mx'. I nearly asked her - of course she was a goddamn girl, and presenting as one - what her Tumblr was called, but didn't.

There was no option for 'Mx' on the computer system I was using, so I registered her as 'Ms' and got on with my day. You don't get an option for 'Other' or 'Genderqueer' or 'Special Snowflake' where it comes to any of the medical software I've used, because your doctor needs to know your physical sex. Medicine doesn't give a shit about anyone's po-mo gender bullshit, and consequently nor do medical administrators. You can tit around with your registration forms all you like, Tumblr. At the end of the day that form is going to be processed by a bored woman with a stack of them to go through. She's just going to roll her eyes and register said snowflake as whatever sex they were presenting as if she saw them, and whatever sex matches their name if she didn't. Congratulations, you just mildly inconvenienced a clerical worker on $10 an hour. Way to stick it to the man there, girls.

Now that brings up and interesting thought. We do all know that legit intersex people exist ( hermaphodites, XXY, all that fun stuff). So I assume in the medical world they just put down what the person presents as and just go the notes and/or ask questions so they can properly treat that person. This has me wondering how the influx of genderspecial bullshit will effect the medical care of legit intersex patients, will they be treated the same as before, will there be deeper and more intrusive (physical and psychological) screening processes to prove the person hasn't just contracted Tumblr?

EDIT: grammar and spelling

 

[LtCucumber]

I'm just watching videos on this and recently one by Prince of queens came up. It's on the subject of "nonbinary pronouns" and such. And the whole subject of it is "don't impose your they/them pronouns on me REEEE YOU CaNNOT IMPOSE YOUR POLITIcaL LANGUAGE ON MEEEEE". I agree you don't have to associate with someone like that but if you want to "boycott" certain language, isn't that you imposing your language on someone because you don't agree with theirs, using "but muh reality" as a fallback, despite the singular they actually being grammatically correct (if we're being pedantic about it) and some people do it on a daily basis without realising it? And at a further stretch, isn't that also a political statement to boycott that sort of thing because "they have to learn", and therefore you're forcing your political agenda on them... Exactly what you think they are so guilty of?
Maybe I find it laughable because I don't get so salty about if someone asks me to use they and them for that reason if i use a singular they on a regular basis - usually for social media personalities who don't show their face or share their real name. Can't exactly determine if they're a man or woman.

I just thought this may be a good discussion point when it comes to "language policing" and pronouns and similar stuff that people get a bit salty about when discussing transgender/nonbinary/trender/etc people. I know some people flat out refuse to use they and them, some don't care/are indifferent.

 

[SourDiesel]

-snip-

This is an interesting topic. I will start by saying that without powerlevelling as much as you have (hey, it's your prerogative), we have some life experience in common and seem to have similar views in general on this topic. Anyway, I think you are absolutely correct in that the refusal to use these pronouns is a political statement in itself. I mean, it kind of has to be at this point since discourse has been driven to such extremes.

The story has always been, "Hey, these are preferred pronouns and it would just be really polite to use the pronouns people prefer!" and if it had stayed there, I don't think we would be seeing both sides digging in their heels so hard but we know it didn't stay there. "Preferred pronouns" turned into "demanded pronouns" really quickly and people get really itchy when you start trying to compel speech in them. Then of course, it isn't just speech that is being compelled here, is it? One must also truly believe inside (or at least be a really good actor so no one suspects) that a female who looks like a female or vise versa, is somehow "not" simply on their say so.

There is a set of beliefs being demanded of people, not simply pronouns. Pronouns are merely a trojan horse, not the end game and people are starting to understand that so they are pushing back. I mean, if you are a a gay man or lesbian, for instance, by agreeing to pretend to believe by using peoples asinine "preferred pronouns" is the same as tacitly agreeing that the female penis or male vagina is a thing. Which is the same as tacitly agreeing that your own sexuality is a non-existent entity, which is obviously not a thing that many will want to do for obvious reasons. This extends to straight people too: by using pronouns these days for these "non-binary" idiots, one is tacitly agreeing their very sexuality is non-existent or somehow bigoted. That's a tough fucking sell, but that's what the problem is here. They will not be happy until you submit to their gender religion. So people don't want to. It feels like someone is holding a metaphorical gun to your head like, "SAY IT! SAY IT UNTIL YOU BELIEVE IT!". Of course people will push back on that kind of thing! Who wouldn't? People don't like being tricked into doing things that would be detrimental to themselves.

There's a power struggle going on and it isn't even about pronouns. Nothing the trans community does is above board. Everything is obfuscated by something that sounds a lot nicer. "Preferred pronouns", "genital preferences", blah blah blah. It's always something way darker in reality. So tbh, yeah, fuck using "they/them", I won't do it.

 

[sarcasticslipandslide]

There is a set of beliefs being demanded of people, not simply pronouns. Pronouns are merely a trojan horse, not the end game and people are starting to understand that so they are pushing back.

"Some people lament, or complain, that others won't use the pronoun of their choice to refer to them. They figure, what's the big deal? This is what I want, and it's no skin off your nose to comply with it. It's a matter of respect.

There's one problem with this: pronouns are not normally something we choose.

We go through much of life making snap judgments about the world around us. It's how we function. It's the part of our brain that uses heuristics—rules of thumb—to deal with information quickly. Sometimes, this intuitive system is wrong, but usually it's right, or at least close enough. Heuristics aren't much good at dealing with unusual or novel situations, but they work quite well for most of what we encounter on a daily basis..." (source)

Another good blog post on this topic, mentioning the "female penis" and "male vagina" phenomenon.

 

[Crunchy Leaf]

I'm just watching videos on this and recently one by Prince of queens came up. It's on the subject of "nonbinary pronouns" and such. And the whole subject of it is "don't impose your they/them pronouns on me REEEE YOU CaNNOT IMPOSE YOUR POLITIcaL LANGUAGE ON MEEEEE". I agree you don't have to associate with someone like that but if you want to "boycott" certain language, isn't that you imposing your language on someone because you don't agree with theirs, using "but muh reality" as a fallback, despite the singular they not actually being grammatically correct (if we're being pedantic about it) and some people do it on a daily basis without realising it? And at a further stretch, isn't that also a political statement to boycott that sort of thing because "they have to learn", and therefore you're forcing your political agenda on them... Exactly what you think they are so guilty of?
Maybe I find it laughable because I don't get so salty about if someone asks me to use they and them for that reason if i use a singular they on a regular basis - usually for social media personalities who don't show their face or share their real name. Can't exactly determine if they're a man or woman.

I just thought this may be a good discussion point when it comes to "language policing" and pronouns and similar stuff that people get a bit salty about when discussing transgender/nonbinary/trender/etc people. I know some people flat out refuse to use they and them, some don't care/are indifferent.

At first when I read 'don't impose your they/them pronouns on me' I thought you meant when people use they/them in real life for people they don't know. Someone used they for me once in person (and I am very clearly a she, or at least I hope so) and I was super uncomfortable.

 

[Alberto Balsalm]

At first when I read 'don't impose your they/them pronouns on me' I thought you meant when people use they/them in real life for people they don't know. Someone used they for me once in person (and I am very clearly a she, or at least I hope so) and I was super uncomfortable.

I do that sometimes with people I don't know well without particularly thinking about it. I think it's usually something along the lines of "they were talking about you beforehand and used 'they', and didn't switch right away". Unless they're the kind of person who still buys into the "always ask for pronouns or use they/them" thing.

As far as using preferred pronouns goes, I personally tend to default to using them when it's to that person's face, even though I don't actually believe in nonbinary genders. I think it looks unnecessarily fanatical to try to start an argument about someone's identity when you barely even know who they are, what they believe, and why they believe it. Some people are legitimate pricks and extremists, but others are simply misguided and could turn out to be good friends in the end.

If they're being actively dickish towards others just for having their own beliefs, that's when we start to have problems, more or less. Sadly a lot of Tumblr encourages this with slogans like "they're not PREFERRED pronouns, they're MANDATORY pronouns".

 

[Meowthkip]

This is an interesting topic. I will start by saying that without powerlevelling as much as you have (hey, it's your prerogative), we have some life experience in common and seem to have similar views in general on this topic. Anyway, I think you are absolutely correct in that the refusal to use these pronouns is a political statement in itself. I mean, it kind of has to be at this point since discourse has been driven to such extremes.

The story has always been, "Hey, these are preferred pronouns and it would just be really polite to use the pronouns people prefer!" and if it had stayed there, I don't think we would be seeing both sides digging in their heels so hard but we know it didn't stay there. "Preferred pronouns" turned into "demanded pronouns" really quickly and people get really itchy when you start trying to compel speech in them. Then of course, it isn't just speech that is being compelled here, is it? One must also truly believe inside (or at least be a really good actor so no one suspects) that a female who looks like a female or vise versa, is somehow "not" simply on their say so.

There is a set of beliefs being demanded of people, not simply pronouns. Pronouns are merely a trojan horse, not the end game and people are starting to understand that so they are pushing back. I mean, if you are a a gay man or lesbian, for instance, by agreeing to pretend to believe by using peoples asinine "preferred pronouns" is the same as tacitly agreeing that the female penis or male vagina is a thing. Which is the same as tacitly agreeing that your own sexuality is a non-existent entity, which is obviously not a thing that many will want to do for obvious reasons. This extends to straight people too: by using pronouns these days for these "non-binary" idiots, one is tacitly agreeing their very sexuality is non-existent or somehow bigoted. That's a tough fucking sell, but that's what the problem is here. They will not be happy until you submit to their gender religion. So people don't want to. It feels like someone is holding a metaphorical gun to your head like, "SAY IT! SAY IT UNTIL YOU BELIEVE IT!". Of course people will push back on that kind of thing! Who wouldn't? People don't like being tricked into doing things that would be detrimental to themselves.

There's a power struggle going on and it isn't even about pronouns. Nothing the trans community does is above board. Everything is obfuscated by something that sounds a lot nicer. "Preferred pronouns", "genital preferences", blah blah blah. It's always something way darker in reality. So tbh, yeah, fuck using "they/them", I won't do it.

"Some people lament, or complain, that others won't use the pronoun of their choice to refer to them. They figure, what's the big deal? This is what I want, and it's no skin off your nose to comply with it. It's a matter of respect.

There's one problem with this: pronouns are not normally something we choose.

We go through much of life making snap judgments about the world around us. It's how we function. It's the part of our brain that uses heuristics—rules of thumb—to deal with information quickly. Sometimes, this intuitive system is wrong, but usually it's right, or at least close enough. Heuristics aren't much good at dealing with unusual or novel situations, but they work quite well for most of what we encounter on a daily basis..." (source)

Another good blog post on this topic, mentioning the "female penis" and "male vagina" phenomenon.

I wonder if this backlash against words and their definitions and the constant comparison to Orwellian Newspeak is directly related to the increased interest in communism among identity politic types.

 

[Andrew Neiman]

In a world where so many people are deprived of things like basic literacy and numeracy education or proper nutrition and so many people are subjected to hardships like institutionalized sexual violence or violence from war, it's nice to know that there are at least a few places where the worst thing you have to deal with is not being called "sproutself."

 

[Diana Moon Glampers]

As far as using preferred pronouns goes, I personally tend to default to using them when it's to that person's face, even though I don't actually believe in nonbinary genders. I think it looks unnecessarily fanatical to try to start an argument about someone's identity when you barely even know who they are, what they believe, and why they believe it. Some people are legitimate pricks and extremists, but others are simply misguided and could turn out to be good friends in the end.

Over the holidays, some of the older generation started talking about how little they bought into this neo-gender idea and felt like it was mostly promoting stereotypes to say that anyone atypical is likely just not a real man/real woman. One of the younger crowd got in a huge huff about this, and said, "You're all making me so uncomfortable that I don't even feel safe expressing my very complex gender feelings to you."

The relief on the faces of the grownups was palpable, which of course infuriated the person even further and made her get histrionic about how unsafe she felt, all the while dangling this idea over everyone that her gender was special but we'd never know about that now, shitlords. Because your uncle having a giggle about your snowflake pronouns really impacts your safety, and that's not at all co-opting the struggle of people who actually have relatives who would hurt or kill them for alternative sexualities or gender expression.

 

[OB 946]

Over the holidays, some of the older generation started talking about how little they bought into this neo-gender idea and felt like it was mostly promoting stereotypes to say that anyone atypical is likely just not a real man/real woman. One of the younger crowd got in a huge huff about this, and said, "You're all making me so uncomfortable that I don't even feel safe expressing my very complex gender feelings to you."

The relief on the faces of the grownups was palpable, which of course infuriated the person even further and made her get histrionic about how unsafe she felt, all the while dangling this idea over everyone that her gender was special but we'd never know about that now, shitlords. Because your uncle having a giggle about your snowflake pronouns really impacts your safety, and that's not at all co-opting the struggle of people who actually have relatives who would hurt or kill them for alternative sexualities or gender expression.

And people call me a shitbag for intentionally not interacting with these folks.