Megathread Non-binary genders / Enbies - When Male and Female Aren't Special Enough

[LtCucumber]

At first when I read 'don't impose your they/them pronouns on me' I thought you meant when people use they/them in real life for people they don't know. Someone used they for me once in person (and I am very clearly a she, or at least I hope so) and I was super uncomfortable.

I meant when people politely ask someone to and I should have been clearer. I know a lot of people who use it without thinking about it, but usually it's if a driver cut them off and they don't know the gender of the person who did it "they're such an asshole", etc. Using they/them for everyone is ridiculous- especially if someone looks like a woman, your first thought is most likely not "oh, that person might be a femme nonbinary" and then you call her "they" as a result.
However you do bring up a good point that got me thinking. I guess "don't impose your political pronouns on me reee" can also apply to people who say "you should use they for everyone because you shouldn't assume that someone wants he or she". We could just meet in the middle here. Use she and he for people who clearly look female and male, respectively. Use they for people you don't know the gender of. Like that guy who you see around in town that people can never tell if he's a guy or a trans woman because he always wears feminine makeup.
To be fair I've had people use it for me all the time (probably because my style is quite androgynous)- it's not upsetting to me personally as I just get over it, people are just confused sometimes and slip up a bit. I do get if it annoys you if you're a woman and people do it to you despite you very clearly being a woman.

 

[Meowthkip]

And people call me a shitbag for intentionally not interacting with these folks.

Just use their language against them, that you don't have the spoons for that kind of intense emotional labor.

Then watch them try and argue their way around that.

 

[Crunchy Leaf]

I meant when people politely ask someone to and I should have been clearer. I know a lot of people who use it without thinking about it, but usually it's if a driver cut them off and they don't know the gender of the person who did it "they're such an asshole", etc. Using they/them for everyone is ridiculous- especially if someone looks like a woman, your first thought is most likely not "oh, that person might be a femme nonbinary" and then you call her "they" as a result.
However you do bring up a good point that got me thinking. I guess "don't impose your political pronouns on me reee" can also apply to people who say "you should use they for everyone because you shouldn't assume that someone wants he or she". We could just meet in the middle here. Use she and he for people who clearly look female and male, respectively. Use they for people you don't know the gender of. Like that guy who you see around in town that people can never tell if he's a guy or a trans woman because he always wears feminine makeup.
To be fair I've had people use it for me all the time (probably because my style is quite androgynous)- it's not upsetting to me personally as I just get over it, people are just confused sometimes and slip up a bit. I do get if it annoys you if you're a woman and people do it to you despite you very clearly being a woman.

I feel bad for people who are gender non conforming but still visibly their biological sex, because I bet they get misgendered a lot more now that a lot of trans people have given up passing. I was at the bookstore yesterday and the cashier was a man with chin length hair and bangs but also facial hair of the not quite stubble, not quite yet a beard type, and my brain thought 'hm, is that a trans woman?'. And I'm sure I'm not the only one. But he's probably not one.
i was in the cafeteria of a women's college with a girl who is a lesbian and when her friends asked her where we met she said 'tinder' which is partly why i thought it was so weird. on that i'm very baffled by people who don't identify as women but choose to go to a women's college

 

[Kaker Cake]

First time posting in this particular board. Hello!

@Crunchy Leaf got me thinking about this...

Something interesting about the whole non-binary thing to me is the idea of asking for someone’s pronouns and the minefield that could create. Say you see someone on the street who looks like a butch woman. Could be a butch (cis) woman, could be a non-binary person, could be a trans man, or even a butch trans woman.

You ask the non-binary person for their pronouns, and they are ecstatic because it is validating that you haven’t assumed anything. You ask the butch lesbian, who could be very offended at you thinking she’s anything other than a woman (or not, but it is a risk), and become upset for a multitude of reasons. You ask the trans man or trans women, and now you have basically told him or her that s/he isn’t passing as the desired gender to you, and now you may have triggered real dysphoria. Either way, there’s a lot of potential for a negative reaction.

 

[SourDiesel]

...or even a butch trans woman...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Yeah, that's just a man, man. I really couldn't give a fuck what someone who's out here who thinks of themselves like that thinks. Fucking absurd, I can't believe you even take that shit seriously. 'Butch trans women' my word! Lol

The rest of your post is correct though. This has come up before though and the answer to the question is apparently, "It's a small price to pay bc trans ppl suicide, stunning and brave, etc. etc., fuck cis people." That is to say: they do not care about anyone but themselves.

 

[Meowthkip]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Yeah, that's just a man, man. I really couldn't give a fuck what someone who's out here who thinks of themselves like that thinks. Fucking absurd, I can't believe you even take that shit seriously. 'Butch trans women' my word! Lol

So like a big, beefy dude in a dress sporting a full beard using "she/her" pronouns?

Sounds more like a troon than a transwoman.

 

[One Man Bland]

Unless they're the kind of person who still buys into the "always ask for pronouns or use they/them" thing.

Honestly this right here is probably where these "I'm biologically a woman and wear clothes made for women but use they/them" enbies are gonna hit the biggest brick wall trying to get normies on board with their nonsense. There's no faster way to insult a well endowed woman in a low cut V-neck or a big burly dude with a massive beard than asking them what their "preferred pronouns" are.

I remember at DashCon a lot of the attendees were asking artists at the Artist Alley for their pronouns, and even they didn't seem too keen on that either.

 

[Kaker Cake]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Yeah, that's just a man, man. I really couldn't give a fuck what someone who's out here who thinks of themselves like that thinks. Fucking absurd, I can't believe you even take that shit seriously. 'Butch trans women' my word! Lol

The rest of your post is correct though. This has come up before though and the answer to the question is apparently, "It's a small price to pay bc trans ppl suicide, stunning and brave, etc. etc., fuck cis people." That is to say: they do not care about anyone but themselves.

So like a big, beefy dude in a dress sporting a full beard using "she/her" pronouns?

Sounds more like a troon than a transwoman.

Yeah, I may have overreached a little with that...

 

[Synthesizer Patel]

Speaking of butch lesbians, there's something of a community on tumblr (because of course there is), and some posts about the nature of "don't you dare call butch lesbians 'he'". Though I've also seen a few of the "lesbian, he/him", so fuck knows. They can't even agree with each other.

Like this blog, which says "being uncomfortable with womanhood doesn't mean you're not a woman", but also "welcomes nb lesbians". It sounds like doublethink to me, but maybe I just can't slog through the bright pink background and all the "ur"s.

 

[SourDiesel]

Yeah, I may have overreached a little with that...

I did come in like an asshole, though. Sorry about that. Seriously though, the concept of the 'butch trans woman' is as @Meowthkip says, firmly and exclusively in the domain of the troon and I personally do not accept it as 'valid'.

Speaking of butch lesbians, there's something of a community on tumblr (because of course there is), and some posts about the nature of "don't you dare call butch lesbians 'he'". Though I've also seen a few of the "lesbian, he/him", so fuck knows. They can't even agree with each other.

Like this blog, which says "being uncomfortable with womanhood doesn't mean you're not a woman", but also "welcomes nb lesbians". It sounds like doublethink to me, but maybe I just can't slog through the bright pink background and all the "ur"s.

It's Tumblr though. I think we all know that if they came out and said, "...and therefore, seriously nb isn't a real thing and/or you need to decide if you're a lesbian or not if you don't even think you're a woman." well... OP is a TERF. I don't think one can really gauge exactly how much of this stuff those on that blog believe simply because tumblr culture won't allow actual discussion on the topic. But you're right, it makes no sense to hold these mutually exclusive positions.

 

[Unfiltered Red]

To play devil's advocate, I'd be interested to see how enbies and non-dysphoric "trans" folk would react to being told they have privilege. I mean, they do if you think about it. They don't have gender dysphoria, and their biggest hope of finding relief from it aren't expensive medical procedures and hormones that often render them sterile. They can just say they're enbies and trannies and call it a day. Seems super privileged to me.

 

[Diana Moon Glampers]

I remember at DashCon a lot of the attendees were asking artists at the Artist Alley for their pronouns, and even they didn't seem too keen on that either.

There's a really good statistical reason for that, too. There were tons of kids who were gender non-conforming, androgynous, didn't give a fuck about stereotypical stuff for their gender as kids and got into nerd shit instead. The vast majority of these children hit puberty, start developing sexuality and such, and start becoming more comfortable with the idea that they can have boobs and like Star Trek, or a dick while liking ponies, or whatever. Studies show even 85% of kids who straight-up think they're trans will have grown comfortable with their biological sex a few years after puberty finishes up, and a lot of other kids never get that deep into it but have significant places where they deviate from their gender norms or are deeply uncomfortable with them.

So conservatively, for every one trans or non-binary person who is relieved that you asked them their pronouns, there will be 4 or 5 people who are men who got called "girly" as kids or girls who got called "butch" and "bulldyke" but now have a fairly standard look for their sex. Every one of these people is going to be insulted as fuck by being asked for preferred pronouns, because it's going to take them back to the time when assholes would regularly ask them if they were really a boy or a girl just because they wore something weird or had an unusual hobby for their sex.

 

[Crunchy Leaf]

Speaking of butch lesbians, there's something of a community on tumblr (because of course there is), and some posts about the nature of "don't you dare call butch lesbians 'he'". Though I've also seen a few of the "lesbian, he/him", so fuck knows. They can't even agree with each other.

Like this blog, which says "being uncomfortable with womanhood doesn't mean you're not a woman", but also "welcomes nb lesbians". It sounds like doublethink to me, but maybe I just can't slog through the bright pink background and all the "ur"s.

I'm baffled by this he/him lesbian thing. It feels extremely regressive to me, like you can't be a real woman unless you're wearing a dress. To me, if you're a lesbian, you're a woman, because that's an inherent part of being a lesbian. And women are okay with 'she', because that's the pronoun for women.

To play devil's advocate, I'd be interested to see how enbies and non-dysphoric "trans" folk would react to being told they have privilege. I mean, they do if you think about it. They don't have gender dysphoria, and their biggest hope of finding relief from it aren't expensive medical procedures and hormones that often render them sterile. They can just say they're enbies and trannies and call it a day. Seems super privileged to me.

The issue here is that enbies don't recognize themselves as being fundamentally different from dysphoric trans people.

 

[DietCherry]

Y

 

[LtCucumber]

As much as I hate genderspecials, people like Prince of Queens really really REALLY can't let the singular "they" or "they/them" pronouns thing go to the point of it seeming like "WRONGTHINK REEEEEE". I mean I get that it gets views but sometimes people need to chill.

I mean if you feed the trolls they just get worse, right? General rule of the internet or something. Stop giving them the attention and fuel their need to go on their little tirades about why you're a "cis white man" who is "using unironic homophobia against other lgbt people, especially trans people". Give them the attention they want and they can act like the biggest marginalised group to exist.

 

[SeaPancake]

Much like how gays have ruined LGBT, NB have ruined NB.

Some guys look good in skirts and girls in cosplay battle armor. Are they non binary because they do that? Does that validate the existence of being non-binary? Don't know, don't fucking care. Just let me enjoy looking at women wearing suits.

 

[Sinner's Sandwich]

Much like how gays have ruined LGBT

Nope. The T ruined lgbt. But it's the fault of the lgb too because most of them still kiss the asses of trans activists.

 

[SeaPancake]

Nope. The T ruined lgbt. But it's the fault of the lgb too because most of them still kiss the asses of trans activists.

To be fair, it is very much both the gays and the trans fault. Pincer movement.

 

[Alberto Balsalm]

Let's compromise and say it was the narcissistic assholes who ruined the LGBT community.

 

[SourDiesel]

To be fair, it is very much both the gays and the trans fault. Pincer movement.

Pincer movement on who though? If the lgb and the T are in a pincer movement to ruin the lgbt then who\what is in the pincer? The LGB isn't ruining their own movement. It's the T and a crap ton of heterosexual 'queers'. I am willing to hear your opinion but I'm gonna need some cites/examples tbh. I don't think I understand what you're getting at.