Diseased Open Source Software Community - it's about ethics in Code of Conducts

[Max Weber]

I think you just mean XWayland?

That's for using X apps on Wayland, I think he means the opposite.

 

[Don Yagon]

What would a "WX11" or something look like that brings compatibility for Wayland code into X11?

https://git.linuxping.win/12to11/12to11

I think it implements a Wayland compositor that creates regular X windows for each Wayland window. Alternatively, other compositors like Weston can just run in a window in existing X sessions.

 

[CrunkLord420]

Still playing with my benchmarking kernel module.

Spoiler: UNPEER REVIEWED SPOILER STATEMENT

Hyprland (on nvidia) has 16-33ms delay on input latency when rendering to a 60hz monitor over i3wm, big fucking surprise.

I believe perceived "tearing" is mostly a psychovisual phenomenon. Namely seeing multiple cursors on the screen simultaneously, which can easily be perceived when viewing extremely fast movements in a cyclical pattern but do not actually exist when reviewing high speed footage. This isn't really "tearing" because in reality the cursor raster image never seems to tear on high speed footage, but rather it gets drawn in two places simultaneously, usually one in a half-dimmed state.

They made Wayland feel fucking awful for no legitimate reason, completely made up in their heads.

Code still coming soon, trying to make it a bit more user friendly.

 

[volatile puar]

Still playing with my benchmarking kernel module.

Spoiler: UNPEER REVIEWED SPOILER STATEMENT

Hyprland (on nvidia) has 16-33ms delay on input latency when rendering to a 60hz monitor over i3wm, big fucking surprise.

I believe perceived "tearing" is mostly a psychovisual phenomenon. Namely seeing multiple cursors on the screen simultaneously, which can easily be perceived when viewing extremely fast movements in a cyclical pattern but do not actually exist when reviewing high speed footage. This isn't really "tearing" because in reality the cursor raster image never seems to tear on high speed footage, but rather it gets drawn in two places simultaneously, usually one in a half-dimmed state.

They made Wayland feel fucking awful for no legitimate reason, completely made up in their heads.

Code still coming soon, trying to make it a bit more user friendly.

>2 additional frames of delay at 60hz
I just experienced screen tear for the first time recently (in games at 60fps), as someone who is not a gamer, and I don't understand how this bothers people, especially if you aren't playing a video game. "Oh no, my Youtube webpage rendered incorrectly for 16ms while I was scrolling through the comments, this is terrible"

 

[Blackhole]

>2 additional frames of delay at 60hz
I just experienced screen tear for the first time recently (in games at 60fps), as someone who is not a gamer, and I don't understand how this bothers people, especially if you aren't playing a video game. "Oh no, my Youtube webpage rendered incorrectly for 16ms while I was scrolling through the comments, this is terrible"

It's very bothersome if you're playing a first person shooter. You need to see what's going on clearly in order to win, and if your screen is constantly tearing and your inputs are delayed it's an awful experience.

 

[CrunkLord420]

>2 additional frames of delay at 60hz
I just experienced screen tear for the first time recently (in games at 60fps), as someone who is not a gamer, and I don't understand how this bothers people, especially if you aren't playing a video game. "Oh no, my Youtube webpage rendered incorrectly for 16ms while I was scrolling through the comments, this is terrible"

Vsync is really only good for watching movies or certain pixel art games. Screen tearing in 16bit JRPGs is atrocious because you can end up with a constantly torn frame while walking left or right. But anything reaction time based, the psychovisual element just completely takes over. Motion blur is part of human perception, tearing is just digital motion blur. Human brains are good at this type of thing, it can also definitely feel a 16ms delay.

It's very bothersome if you're playing a first person shooter. You need to see what's going on clearly in order to win, and if your screen is constantly tearing and your inputs are delayed it's an awful experience.

I don't think there's serious competitive FPS players running with vsync. In fact they will run their games uncapped, or at least double the refresh rate of their display (so like 480hz) to minimize input latency.

 

[volatile puar]

It's very bothersome if you're playing a first person shooter. You need to see what's going on clearly in order to win, and if your screen is constantly tearing and your inputs are delayed it's an awful experience.

It's actually the opposite, in multiplayer first person shooters you want the rendered frame to be as recent as possible for that minute advantage. Screen tearing also becomes less noticeable with higher framerates because very little can change in 8ms or less.

 

[Lard Shart]

seeing multiple cursors on the screen simultaneously

tearing is just digital motion blur

Sounds like you're confusing screen tearing and ghosting.
Tearing and ghosting respectively:

I think I solved tearing in Linux with the Xorg NoTear option or something like that.
Ghosting is caused by a shitty (cheap) monitor IIRC.

 

[Slav Power]

Ghosting is caused by a shitty (cheap) monitor IIRC.

It's caused by a myriad of parameters in the monitor. The display technology, implementation, settings etc. Still, the point is that ghosting is a hardware issue, not software.

 

[The Count of Monte Cristo]

Vsync is really only good for watching movies or certain pixel art games.

Dunno why this reminded me of back when I used windows as my daily driver on my main rig. The file explorer window had the most atrocious tearing imaginable and really got on my nerves.

 

[GoysGoneWild]

I'm still wrapping my head around the massive implications of this Xlibre shit. The developers of one of the most significant parts of the entire FOSS ecosystem held it back, actively sabotaged it for a decade or more, so they could push their in-house solution. They lied about it for a decade when fixes and improvements were available. This held back security and the Linux desktop user experience the entire time, so the comparative advantages of their dogshit new design would seem bigger.

And then, the cherry on top, they drag their feet and more or less refuse to do work on developing their new solution, until a major corporation not affiliated with their cabal (Steam) loses patience and forks their shit to send a message.

It really is shocking stuff, and should still be frontpage news on every tech outlet weeks later.

 

[volatile puar]

a major corporation not affiliated with their cabal (Steam)

It's a little bit more significant than that. The entire idea of Linux is built upon the idea of free software, the entire reason for the divide between the free software ideology and the idea of open source is that they didn't want to help corporations build better non-free software, with one of the major concerns being that open source might lead to stronger drm and digital locks. Valve is not merely a corporation selling non-free software, but their entire business model is against the ideals of free software. Their product is not really games, and it's not even a marketplace, it's gambling a good enough drm solution to appease video game publishers. The fact that Valve is making Linux great again would make Richard Stallman roll around in his grave, if he was dead.

 

[That Summer Feeling]

Are there any practical reasons for me to avoid the GNOME-IBM-RedHat-systemd-Wayland trannyverse?

I used Fedora with GNOME for years and it works fine and I never felt compelled to switch to anything else.
Every time I've tried KDE I couldn't stomach it because it's ugly as shit. Other DEs are also ugly as shit. And they suck.

I used Arch with i3wm for years and then, one day, when I had to reinstall my system (because I did something stupid) I realized I grew out of tinkering and just want something simple.

I mean, I hate the tranny miasma that surrounds these projects, but it doesn't manifest itself on my computah in any way.

I would love to escape the dilationland, but I can't find a reason to other than political. Am I not autistic enough or something. I just want my applications to work and I don't want to be eyeraped by ugly design in the process.

 

[Betonhaus]

Are there any practical reasons for me to avoid the GNOME-IBM-RedHat-systemd-Wayland trannyverse?

I used Fedora with GNOME for years and it works fine and I never felt compelled to switch to anything else.
Every time I've tried KDE I couldn't stomach it because it's ugly as shit. Other DEs are also ugly as shit. And they suck.

I used Arch with i3wm for years and then, one day, when I had to reinstall my system (because I did something stupid) I realized I grew out of tinkering and just want something simple.

I mean, I hate the tranny miasma that surrounds these projects, but it doesn't manifest itself on my computah in any way.

I would love to escape the dilationland, but I can't find a reason to other than political. Am I not autistic enough or something. I just want my applications to work and I don't want to be eyeraped by ugly design in the process.

It does sound like you've trained yourself to ignore all the problems so that'll be a hard ask. What other distros have you tried? And how did you try KDE?

 

[DavidS877]

I always love the desktop environment wars. Give me a thing that lets me select and move windows, change virtual desktops, and a couple buttons to launch a web browser and a terminal. I'd switch back to FVWM but I'm too lazy so I just use Xfce.

 

[The Big Bad D]

@CrunkLord420 Maybe also try to get measurements with fullscreen unredirection.

 

[That Summer Feeling]

It does sound like you've trained yourself to ignore all the problems so that'll be a hard ask. What other distros have you tried? And how did you try KDE?

I think the last time I've tried KDE was with KDE neon. Does that make much of a difference?

I don't remember how long ago that was though. But I'm still repulsed by it's appearance today, even by screenshots. Maybe I should try it out one more time with an open mind... and closed eyes

 

[HootersMcBoobies]

You can run X alone and get a blank screen.

Sorry to nitpick, but you get a checkerboard screen with that X cursor on it. I use to setup X11 with a single application and no window managers for kiosks. You disable virtual term and ctrl+alt+backspace (or have it auto-relogin) and a couple of other things and it was pretty sold for schools, malls and crap.

Reminds me of the time the linux journal tested terminal emulators (even the fancy nutech ones like alacritty who use rust, the GPU and everything) and came to the conclusion that good ol' xterm is in fact the most low latency one compared to some others even by far.

I tried Wezterm for a while just to try something different. I hated all the config file settings, but I got it working the way I wanted. Trouble is, every fullscreen would hang/delay for like 1~2 seconds on i3/x11. I tried different rendering backends, turning my composer on/off (picom) and sometimes it would only happen in long running terminals and not new ones. I went through all the possible issues on their tracker and couldn't find any solutions. So I went back to xfce4-terminal. Except for the extra big tabs I still can't figure out how to shrink, it's totally fine. I don't get why people want additional speed in their fucking terminal.

https://git.linuxping.win/12to11/12to11 I think it implements a Wayland compositor that creates regular X windows for each Wayland window. Alternatively, other compositors like Weston can just run in a window in existing X sessions.

oh god, I was joking with someone that in a few years we'd see a waylandx version of xwayland and it would be hilarious if wayland apps actually worked better on it with X11. This is awesome. Love the name/X11 reference too.

I believe perceived "tearing" is mostly a psychovisual phenomenon. Namely seeing multiple cursors on the screen simultaneously, which can easily be perceived when viewing extremely fast movements in a cyclical pattern but do not actually exist when reviewing high speed footage. This isn't really "tearing" because in reality the cursor raster image never seems to tear on high speed footage, but rather it gets drawn in two places simultaneously, usually one in a half-dimmed state.

I think I solved tearing in Linux with the Xorg NoTear option or something like that.

I've always used xrandr --output <whatever> --set TearFree on on AMD graphics. I think it's the same thing on Intel/Arc (modesetting driver), or it has a similarly named option. I've never had issues when setting that correctly for Intel/AMD graphics. I've also been able to set 144Hz and 200Hz via xrandr without issues, even with the Level1Tech's fancy KVM switches (so long as I use short, high quality cables. 3DClub is what you want for that).

 

[DavidS877]

Sorry to nitpick, but you get a checkerboard screen with that X cursor on it.

No, sorry, they fucked that up. Looks like 16 years ago now.
Looks like it was by a rainbow person*:

-retro starts the server with the classic stipple and cursor visible. The default is to start with a black root window, and to suppress display of the
cursor until the first time an application calls XDefineCursor(). For kdrive servers, this implies -zap.

* Yes I'm well aware what their profile picture is, don't @ me.

 

[Betonhaus]

I think the last time I've tried KDE was with KDE neon. Does that make much of a difference?

I don't remember how long ago that was though. But I'm still repulsed by it's appearance today, even by screenshots. Maybe I should try it out one more time with an open mind... and closed eyes

Well trying KDE Neon is definitely better then if you just did apt-get install plasma-desktop then got shocked because half the KDE stuff was missing. On the internet you learn not have high expectations of other people.

Would you consider trying Linux Mint with its default Cinnamon DE?