Paganism and the Occult - Ouija boards, sage smudging, and hexes, oh my!

[Eldritch]

I dabble in Meme Magic and Memetic Warfare. I know nothing of the old gods or past traditions, so I guess in some ways that helps.

I love you, ebola-chan.

 

[autisticdragonkin]

Essentially, Vodou sees the world under the guidance of a single God, "Bondye" or "Bon Dieu", the "Good God." This God is very distant and hard to hit up when you need him, because he runs the whole universe and you are a tiny mortal. So he delegates. The people he delegates to are called the "Lwa" or "Loa" and are sort of demigods, spirits, ancestors, and ghosts all in one. Some are so old and primordial that they may have never lived human lives, and depending on where you are these might be Loa like "Damballah", a father figure of sorts, or "Erzulie Freda", a spirit/God of wealth, luxury, love, and sex. These are considered the weakest Loa in practice because they are starting to get farther away from us, like Bondye.

Is there a distinction between the far away Loa who never were humans originating differently than the ones who were once humans such as being independently created or being the descendants of Bondye in the way that Greek and Norse deities originated

Haitian ("Orthodox") Vodou takes itself especially seriously

Is this less the case with west African Vodun and Louisiana Voodoo?

- practices animal sacrifice, as well as votive and general sacrifice (I practiced and condoned all three)

Can you elaborate on the distinction between the three? Is animal sacrifice interpreted as something along the lines of meat sacrifice?

- condemns magic or sorcery of almost any kind (contrary to population belief, )

Is there a strong distinction between sorcery and the assistance of Loa as a result?

- selling religious services or paraphernalia is one of the highest sins in Vodou because it considered blasphemous greed and usury (see: the slavery thing again.)

Does this mean that the priests will generally have other jobs to support themselves?

 

[Gym Leader Elesa]

Is there a distinction between the far away Loa who never were humans originating differently than the ones who were once humans such as being independently created or being the descendants of Bondye in the way that Greek and Norse deities originated

Yes, but their origins are considered to be unknowable. They are "root" or "racine loa" whose origins lay less in deeds and more in cosmological concepts. Love, War, Rain, Oceans. Whatever. They may have been created by Bondye, but only in the way that "Love" was created by Bondye. We may say that they are aspects of creation that have always been, instead. Like three books which rest on top of one another, to use a C.S. Lewis example in which he tried to explain the Trinity. The two books higher up have always been there in this scenario, but still would fall without the bottom one.

Is this less the case with west African Vodun and Louisiana Voodoo?

Yes. More eclectic, less organized, and less doctrinal. Seen primarily as a way of life rather than a religious identity. That is sometimes the case in Haitian Vodou, but it has been rapidly changing due to conflict with Christianity and Orthodox Vodou going on the defensive. Louisiana Voodoo is so mixed it is essentially occult Christianity. It has no real substance as an independent faith identity. West African Vodun has no consistency of belief, and is more accurately summarized as "all West Africans who are not yet Christian or Muslim." Though the common themes of the Godhead, Loa, and Ancestors do remain.

Can you elaborate on the distinction between the three? Is animal sacrifice interpreted as something along the lines of meat sacrifice?

Votive sacrifice is an academic term. It means buried sacrifice or at minimum, sacrifice without intended recovery, and this uncommon but not unheard of as a ritual practice. Traditionally however, Vodou practicing cultures are not wasteful and most sacrifices are consumable in order to be, consequently, consumed. There are really only a few reasons I can think of that someone would do it and mostly it has to do with honoring the attachment to the land of ones forefathers and giving back some of your wealth to it (and thus ensuring it doesn't leave). Or see below where it kind of overlaps. Although even then, this tendency more often takes the form of simply agrarian tendencies. Planting a fruit tree or whatever, which isn't votive sacrifice.

General sacrifice is how I referred to the daily practice of leaving offerings to the Loa. This is highly personal and depends on the desires and likes of the Loa, how much the practitioner cares, and whether or not they must practice in secret. Coffee, a mirror or hairbrush, candy, cigarettes, accessories. This could be a lot of things. It is usually put on the personal or familial altar and then either left there for the Loa's use, or eventually consumables get rotated out. Wouldn't be considered votive because the objects almost always get reclaimed later on. Loa don't visit the average household too often to this practice is mostly symbolic. The ancestors are watching you, to see if you still care and are thus worthy of attention.

Animal sacrifice is exactly what it sounds like. Why would it mean meat sacrifice? I assume you mean like "do you just buy it at Wal-Mart"? No. You take, say a black chicken, sacred to certain Loa, you ritually slaughter it, and then it might be burned, cooked, eaten, offered to a possessed person, whatever. Like God intended. Who the fuck tries to cop out like that?

Is there a strong distinction between sorcery and the assistance of Loa as a result?

An incredibly strong one. Sorcery is viewed as black art, and attempting to use the power of the spirits for personal gain is considered abhorrent. It's like attempting to "force" their hand and it is considered very rude and blasphemous. Especially if it works. Lesser spirits are thought to be easily controlled, sometimes even souls are allegedly, but eventually Bondye or the Loa or the community will come for you. Witchcraft is mistrusted and ill-advised...although some Bokor still do it. Most often they have been hanged. Why they would abuse their faith like this I cannot say. I don't have a particular grudge.

Does this mean that the priests will generally have other jobs to support themselves?

Often but not always. Some use the community to support themselves. Some do break tradition and charge modest fees in the form of life necessities. Taking money is usually bad form and if a Houngan/Mambo asks you for money I would advise you to fuck off promptly.

 

[autisticdragonkin]

Animal sacrifice is exactly what it sounds like. Why would it mean meat sacrifice? I assume you mean like "do you just buy it at Wal-Mart"? No. You take, say a black chicken, sacred to certain Loa, you ritually slaughter it, and then it might be burned, cooked, eaten, offered to a possessed person, whatever. Like God intended. Who the fuck tries to cop out like that?

My question was more along the lines of asking whether in the areas Vodou is practiced people will slaughter the animals themselves (and as a result there is an analogy to serving food to a guest)

 

[Abethedemon]

I'm a Jew (mainly ethnically, but I'm interested spiritually as well), but I've always felt an interest for paganic/polytheistic practices. I think there's something to be gleaned from both a traditionalist and a scholarly perspective on religion.
Just as a question, if I'm a Jew, what kinds of paganism can I practice? Aside from Wicca and all, that is.

 

[autisticdragonkin]

Just as a question, if I'm a Jew, what kinds of paganism can I practice? Aside from Wicca and all, that is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_neopaganism
Although many Jews and Christians will deny it there is a lot of evidence that prior to the Babylonian Exile Jews tended to be polytheistic and simply considered Yahweh to be the most important god with some evidence for this in the Old Testament particularly in Genesis Psalms and Exodus. Regardless of whether this is actually the case Semitic Neopaganism is trying to reconstruct this religion

 

[Marvin]

I'm a Jew (mainly ethnically, but I'm interested spiritually as well), but I've always felt an interest for paganic/polytheistic practices. I think there's something to be gleaned from both a traditionalist and a scholarly perspective on religion.
Just as a question, if I'm a Jew, what kinds of paganism can I practice? Aside from Wicca and all, that is.

And still adhere to traditional Judaism? Likely none.

 

[Melkor]

Alright so re: smudging. It was brought up a few times in the Tumblr sub but since its more of a Deep Thoughts subject I'm gonna post my personal opinion here.

Smudging is specifically burning a bundle of sage in a smudging pot, which is usually an abalone shell. It's a ritual performed by Natives to cleanse an area or person or thing of negative energy.

My personal thoughts are... conflicting. I've been thinking about my stance over the past week. While I would say "you have to be Native to perform this ritual", I also think that if a tribal elder has taught you the specifics of smudging and you're fully aware of what you're doing and how it's supposed to be done, then I think that's alright.

I'm not going to broach the subject of cultural appropriation here because that's an entirely different topic that would need a thread of its own. Over the past week I've been reconsidering my stance when asking myself "when is it going too far?"

A lot of native ceremonies are sacred. I won't lie about that. But I'm not an expert, so I think I'd defer to the user's judgment.

 

[Abethedemon]

In a non-newagey way, I kind of feel a connection to Odin, but I'm very non-nordic when it comes to things.
What do?

 

[autisticdragonkin]

In a non-newagey way, I kind of feel a connection to Odin, but I'm very non-nordic when it comes to things.
What do?

Replace the name Odin with Yahweh in all myths because they were somewhat analogous deities (Interpretatio Hebrewica), use Anu if you are uncomfortable with using Yahweh

 

[Abethedemon]

Replace the name Odin with Yahweh in all myths because they were somewhat analogous deities (Interpretatio Hebrewica), use Anu if you are uncomfortable with using Yahweh

I understand that they're both gods of war and wisdom, but isn't Odin more connected with magic and the occult?
But they are quite similar to each other, especially if you look at them from their historical context.

 

[Jack Haywood]

Weird thing is, all pagan religions in Europe (as well as Hinduism) actually stem back to a very ancient religion which is referred to as "Proto-Indo-European religion". It's an earlier hypothetical polytheistic system of belief where deities with rebuilt names like *Perkʷunos and *Prih₁eh₂ were worshipped. Tracing it back further leads back to an animistic system where the former is the soul of rain and thunder, and the latter is the soul of love.

(Well I think so, *Prih₁eh₂ is also a goddess of the garden, but I'd say it was love first.)

 

[Holdek]

@Gym Leader Elesa what is your opinion on zombies?

The Kiwi (I don't remember who it was) said something like "Westerners think karma is something that takes many lifetimes to escape, when actually, most Eastern religions teach that it can be escaped in any single lifetime".

Might have been @Sanic as he had a thread on Zen and was a teaching assistant for a Buddhism course IIRC.

 

[Linako 2.0]

I'm a Jew (mainly ethnically, but I'm interested spiritually as well), but I've always felt an interest for paganic/polytheistic practices. I think there's something to be gleaned from both a traditionalist and a scholarly perspective on religion.
Just as a question, if I'm a Jew, what kinds of paganism can I practice? Aside from Wicca and all, that is.

when are you going to praise the golden calf again?

 

[Sheikh_Speare]

I understand that they're both gods of war and wisdom, but isn't Odin more connected with magic and the occult?
But they are quite similar to each other, especially if you look at them from their historical context.

If you think Yahweh's not associated with magic and the occult, you've never heard of Kabbalah,
Gematria, or Solomonic Magic.

 

[Abethedemon]

If you think Yahweh's not associated with magic and the occult, you've never heard of Kabbalah,
Gematria, or Solomonic Magic.

Yeah, Kabbalah's pretty sick, I've been studying it a bit recently, I guess I was confused with some of the laws in leviticus that proscribe sorcery.

 

[Sheikh_Speare]

Yeah, Kabbalah's pretty sick, I've been studying it a bit recently, I guess I was confused with some of the laws in leviticus that proscribe sorcery.

Kabbalists considered theurgy permissible. It was only lower forms of "idolatrous" magic which were forbidden. Giving blood sacrifices to some "demon" isn't kosher, but summoning angels or invoking the names of God to enslave said demon is.

A similar situation existed historically in Islam. Even with the Qur'anic prohibition on sorcery, most Muslim jurists only thought that applied to specifically pagan magical forms. That's why medieval mujahideen wore talismanic shirts and even madrasas taught books like Jawahir al-Khams and Shams al-Ma'arif (which have heavy theurgic, thaumaturgic, and geomantic content).

It is mostly a modern fundamentalist phenomenon to consider these things haram. This difference of opinion is reflected in how ISIS routinely kills people for "sorcery" simply for using traditional "amaals" (literally "works") which were considered permissible by Muslim religious authorities for centuries.

 

[Abethedemon]

Kabbalists considered theurgy permissible. It was only lower forms of "idolatrous" magic which were forbidden. Giving blood sacrifices to some "demon" isn't kosher, but summoning angels or invoking the names of God to enslave said demon is.

A similar situation existed historically in Islam. Even with the Qur'anic prohibition on sorcery, most Muslim jurists only thought that applied to specifically pagan magical forms. That's why medieval mujahideen wore talismanic shirts and even madrasas taught books like Jawahir al-Khams and Shams al-Ma'arif (which have heavy theurgic, thaumaturgic, and geomantic content).

It is mostly a modern fundamentalist phenomenon to consider these things haram. This difference of opinion is reflected in how ISIS routinely kills people for "sorcery" simply for using traditional "amaals" (literally "works") which were considered permissible by Muslim religious authorities for centuries.

I guess that all religions kind of allow a sort of mystical side, they just may not say so explicitly. That's the trap of a lot of new agey religions like Wicca, they advertise their magic, and become a lot less rooted in their traditions.

 

[Jack Haywood]

And still adhere to traditional Judaism? Likely none.

Another fact as well, all that Deuteronomy stuff wasn't originally there at first. It was added later by religious elites under King Josiah who wanted Israel to be devoted strictly to Yahweh: http://contradictionsinthebible.com/the-deuteronomist/

 

[Daughter of Cernunnos]

I am a Greco-Roman polytheist with a love for the river gods.