Paradox Studio Thread

Favorite Paradox Game?


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Well that got a bit boring. Got halfway into Mexico before the Allies came in force. Now I'm sitting at a static line outkilling the AI 20:1 while they're continuing their war against the Soviets. I'm hoping this will drain them.
 
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Here's an unpopular opinion.
I have come to a conclusion that India MUST be included in all strategy games depicting the Old World. Not optional.
A lot of Paradox retards hated India because it worsened their oh-so-precious performance (I'm sorry your game ran slightly slower so I can play on a whole new subcontinent).

My argument has to do with ripple effects. Anything that happens in one place directly effects bordering regions. The absence of a region also effects bordering regions, because the ABSENCE of expansion opportunities and threats from a region effectively locks that area into a corner that it wasn't historically in and shapes their behavior to be far more oriented towards the areas that are depicted. THERE IS NO WAY AROUND THIS.

India had a vast, advanced civilization - as significant as the West and as the Orient in that time - and it was very intimately tied to Central Asia that also tied to the Middle East. People make a massive deal out of Alexander the Great "conquering the known world" when he turned back at Mauryan - India's equivalent to Macedonia - frontiers. Napoleon tried to invade Egypt in part to get at India. Mongols and Timurids swept into India. Muslim invaders from the West swept into India.

Now, people argue that this sort of reasoning can only end with everything being included, but the thing is, some regions really didn't interact that meaningfully. Interacted so little that it can, truly, be portrayed through some events or off-screen mechanic. As far as I'm aware India was part of a geopolitcal system that was more or less isolated (in that sense) from China's world (which I'd include Tibet in) and Indochina/Indonesia. Elsewhere, my reasoning makes for a good reason to include Abysinnia/Ethiopia without needing to include Swahili and Sahelian states. If you intend for steppe nomads to function like normal playable nations you have to have China, but it's not necessary to have them. And China, Korea and Japan basically isolated themselves and are impossible to balance anyways.

I think CK2 and Imperator Rome were right to include India and Rome 2 should have had it as well.
 
OpenVic.png
This may look like a Vic 2 screenshot, but it's actually a work-in-progress from OpenVic. They're still slowly working on it in their free time and a fully playable version should be out by 2025.
 
@Knud Lavard Saw a really old post of yours in here about pilgrimages (for CK2). The topic of conversation was cathedrals not really being represented properly in the game despite being one of the most notable features of the era, wonders of the world that were each and every one of them a story in itself.

Could be cool if a CK2-like (i'm going to say -like from now on since Paradox themselves are hopeless) had a sort of "build your own holy site" thing. Or think of it like Civilization tourism. You get cathedrals and monasteries, they work like Great Works but balanced to be viable and gradual projects. Then there's some kind of pool of Pilgrims in your religion/region. The state/church can actively cultivate a holy site, a cult to a saint, a collection of relics to boost the attractiveness of its holy sites. It's competitive. It draws Prestige, Piety and commerce/cultural exchange/technological diffusion from the movement of peoples. It can become a source of event chains and intrigues and such (Medieval monasteries would straight up steal relics from each other, Orthodox would fake up "uncorrupted" saints that were stuffed with straw, ancient Pharaohs would hire tomb raiders to loot the treasures of old pyramids for their own and disavow them if they got caught, etc.). It's both competitive and cooperative in that active investment in, cultivation of religious fervor drives Moral Authority (though it could perhaps due the opposite if it gets derailed into social reform, like many of those heresies really were) but you get more of the goodies, the rewards, for doing more of the work yourself.

Make a whole DLC. Call it The Pilgrim's Progress or some dumb shit.

I truly hate, from the bottom of my heart, the Game of Thrones crowd because I think they more than anybody were responsible for Paradox playing into lolmurderincest and roleplaying instead of enriching their Medieval world.
 
@Knud Lavard Saw a really old post of yours in here about pilgrimages (for CK2). The topic of conversation was cathedrals not really being represented properly in the game despite being one of the most notable features of the era, wonders of the world that were each and every one of them a story in itself.

Could be cool if a CK2-like (i'm going to say -like from now on since Paradox themselves are hopeless) had a sort of "build your own holy site" thing. Or think of it like Civilization tourism. You get cathedrals and monasteries, they work like Great Works but balanced to be viable and gradual projects. Then there's some kind of pool of Pilgrims in your religion/region. The state/church can actively cultivate a holy site, a cult to a saint, a collection of relics to boost the attractiveness of its holy sites. It's competitive. It draws Prestige, Piety and commerce/cultural exchange/technological diffusion from the movement of peoples. It can become a source of event chains and intrigues and such (Medieval monasteries would straight up steal relics from each other, Orthodox would fake up "uncorrupted" saints that were stuffed with straw, ancient Pharaohs would hire tomb raiders to loot the treasures of old pyramids for their own and disavow them if they got caught, etc.).

Make a whole DLC. Call it The Pilgrim's Progress or some dumb shit.

I truly hate, from the bottom of my heart, the Game of Thrones crowd because I think they more than anybody were responsible for Paradox playing into lolmurderincest and roleplaying instead of enriching their Medieval world.
Roleplaying is one of the essential aspects of crusader kings.
 
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Roleplaying is one of the essential aspects of crusader kings.
It is. But they have also gone 100% in on that to the exclusion of everything else, and they have completely ignored roleplaying as a ruler. Almost all of the content Paradox has added over what must be like a decade now has been focused on interpersonal relations. Faffery. It already had enough of that stuff to be engaging. What they neglected was developing any depth to the art of peace, economic development, lawmaking. I need to go for a walk before night falls, but I can tell you later some of that stuff.

CK2 exists in a time that is rich with details of everyday life. Guilds of craftsmen that give cities reputations, famous down to this day, for specific wares (Toledo steel? Venetian glass?). Fleets of merchant galleys and desert caravans knitting together civilizations that are, at a distance, "Here be Dragons" legends to each other into a single vast world market, which will in turn inspire men to go overseas to find out what lays beyond the water. Great social unrest resulting from the tensions of serfdom, the beginning of the end of it as plague gives poor working men the ability to stand up for themselves, the rise of kings cooperating with their lower classes to curb the power of the upper class. Romantic images of Robin Hood poaching and raiding in the forests of England, social bandits resisting oppression and exploitation. Monasteries abuzz with life as monks both preserve ancient knowledge and begin to make a new world of knowledge, lay the foundations of humanism, the Renaissance, and from that a whole new world. Great kings laying down whole new bodies of law, like Justinian with his code or Yaroslav the Wise with his Russian Truth. A whole world growing out of the decaying corpse of ancient Rome, making a garden of human potential.

Isn't that more interesting to you than having Content Pack #48 with three more funny hats for your little virtual king?
 
Okay, so what does all that stuff I said look like in practice? Well, it's hard to say. It was easy, Paradox would have done it (because easy is the friend of lazy).

Mostly I wanted a deeper economy and trade system, something that can really be played with instead of just building up my Trade button. Even Rome 2: Total War has more detail, in that you can stack wealth of certain types and those types are then effected by different modifiers (a partition of economic activity into commerce, industry, and agriculture). My biggest idea was having holdings be called Settlements and have counties have land resources that are divided up among the Settlements (generic holdings) as well as an abstract population figure (like Imperator pops, perhaps). The pops are self-sufficient and based on farming efficiency produce surpluses, rural craftsmen, and a pool of surplus population for the Settlements. This is all like MEIOU and Taxes so far. Let's take some inspiration from the Solow model and have a capital investment progress bar that fills up to some maximum. Raiding and civil strife depletes it, mass death from plague actually raises it (it's relative to population). Rural population can also specialize in some kind of noted craft that produces trade goods, like French wine, Italian olive oil, Cheddar cheese in Britain, almond milk in Egypt (no joke, that was a real thing that was a huge export to Medieval Europe), sugar in Mesopotamia, iron in Scandinavia, timber in Russia, etc. Developing these sort of industries is the kind of thing the settlement owner can chuck cash at

You get enough industry going in an area, you can maybe start establishing a proper sector. In this time period I doubt that tools, physical capital, are really the constraint. It's probably the labor, the craftsmen, that are, and so let's keep that character focus and have it revolve around guilds. The guilds are like characters unto themselves. We don't expect most Settlements, maybe even most counties to have one. They reflect a specific industry, have a reputation that can wax or wane. They're a source of events, can be political actors in ways. Basically it's like a character to interact with, but representing a group of people. They produce your industrial export goods. Leather. Armor. Cloth. Books. Candles. Carpentry. Whatever it is.

How does trade work? I don't know. Probably have some notion of trade capacity, trade routes you can set up. I kind of like the idea of having feudal lords be inherently crippled at doing this, really only able to link up between bordering regions, but the urban governments beneath them and merchant republics independent of them are potent at it. Make it require some sort of bilateral exchange. Paradox games tend to miss this, trade isn't a competition between you and the customer, it's a COOPERATIVE EXERCISE. The value of goods should reflect some sort of ideal balance, if you glut a market where too much of something it should have a very low price, generate little wealth, as a consequence.

The big thing here is that your economic system can always take care of itself, or at least to some extent. Maybe you can overdevelop if you get an import market in food going where you're dependent on the food imports, especially for massive cities like Baghdad and Constantinople, but in general you don't have to micromanage things like Victoria because that's not the main point of a game like this. But you do invest in developing your trade goods (through rural estates and through urban guilds) and your trade routes and that's the main work of it.

Socially, I've had this idea of counties having religious authorities (again, like another character) and different social classes with different attitudes. At a basic level it's the peasantry, burghers and gentry (lesser nobility below the level of barons and their equivalents). These are not proper characters, are not really active actors, but they may have some interactions, occasionally spawn events and such, most importantly they have opinions and can individually be angered into action. The local religious authorities SHOULD be characters. I don't like how CK2 represented all priestly characters as landholders, the prince-bishopric thing is only a Catholic thing and it forced it on the whole world. I don't like the idea of there being "temple" holdings. No, there may be cathedrals and monasteries and such and they may have characters attached to them, but in general, a county has its top religious cleric. Depending on the local attitude towards religion and your relationship to the cleric, they either act as an assistant or an obstructionist to the regime (religious institutions basically WERE the bureaucracy back then, a bureaucracy shared across borders) and as a propaganda mouthpiece for or against the ruler. At the same time, under conditions of low Moral Authority an antagonistic relationship between cleric and ruler may actually please the public. The big thing here is that the clerics are powerful even aside from the Pope. Even without prince-bishops (who should still be a thing where accurate, Settlements with a theocratic form of government) the religious community should be something the ruler has to constantly grapple with.

When social classes get angry, it manifests in civil disobedience (of the types they had back then), banditry, guerilla warfare, and ultimately open revolt. In this time period peasant rebellions were usually crushed flat, it's mostly a penalty to the economy/viable levies. Something that saps the ruler's strength like a debilitating disease rather than a sharp, pointed threat like a modern revolution.

Some Settlements may have a sort of settlement-within-a-settlement, basically buildings that have their own branches and a name, potentially even a character tied to it. Think things like cathedrals, universities, and monasteries (which does include crusader orders too, like Knights Templar properties). All three of those should be a big deal, very prestigious, very competitive projects that develop local economies, raise piety, raise the status of the church, solidify the ruler's grasp, and are developed over ages. In a post above I described the idea of pilgrimage as analogous to tourism depicted in other games. You investing in your religious/ideological infrastructure increases the strength/value of that religion/ideology to you. It is both cooperative (everyone is building the Church) and competitive (the ones who are better at building have more to gain, over their share). In general, universities are the capital to produce even more religious human capital (more scholars), monasteries are producers of fine goods and R&D labs, more or less, and small pilgrimage sites. Cathedrals are the big boys of religious tourism and religious propaganda. Constructing these fuckers should feel epic, like a true achievement that you love your cathedral when you are done with it. The game should be balanced so that any reasonably sized realm has several major ones by the end of the game, but they are a grind to get through. I wouldn't mind the game revolving around them like wonder races in Age of Empires.

Foreigner's quarters - Jewish ghettos namely, but also the merchant republic trading posts, the Hanseatic quarters, protected minorities of various types - also have such buildings, and grow by themselves over time. (CK+ had this already, in a very simple form, if a Jewish Community is left alone it eventually levels up and you can't build them. When expelled it triggers events for other rulers to let them in.) Jews and colonial Germans are treated like guilds, basically, a special type of guild. Jews should be rather prominent. Credit should be something that is always available (people always circumvented religious laws), but the more Jews and Templars you have the more credit you can get. Monastic orders should be playable as a way to play as theocracies. In a game about dynasties, monastic orders are the religious equivalent of dynasties (for Catholics), with the goal being angling to control the Papacy. You can be the state within the state, owning Monasteries, controlling Cathedrals and Universities, and sometimes owning worldly properties (like the Crusader States in the Middle East and Baltic) across Europe. Gaining a nobleman's child as a member of your monastic order is the equivalent of political marriage.

For Eastern Rome, their bureaucratic govt is reflected in a playstyle where dynasties depend on their rural estates (a settlement type that is like a castle but less militarized and more commercial). Just because you don't hold offices, that doesn't mean you don't exist as a powerbroker. (It does mean you're probably a shitty powerbroker and are going to have trouble holding on to your private properties.) For merchant republics it's about their private fleets and their trading quarters (CK2 already did a good job with that, but it fucked republics up in other ways). This would apply to China if included, just noting that in the Byzantines they were more of a martial elite whereas the Chinese literati/gentleman-scholars were an intellectual/academic elite. For any sort of classical republic I think dynasty works fine; for peasant republics, probably dynastic but portrayed more like a clan.

Settlements will have a legal system that reflects what "type" it is. This is malleable, it guides how the settlement may develop, and there is a memory of past traditions; try to revoke republican rule in a city and the locals will be angry for a long time, for example. In general, you can have your castles and your cities. Castles reward . Rulers will also have a docket of laws, decrees, things like that which effect the status of the social classes. Sumptuary laws, for example, may raise Piety/Moral Authority, please the clergy and the gentry, but anger the burghers. Droit de seigneur (I know it was made up, but I'm just using it as an example) pleases the gentry but angers the peasantry greatly. Balancing act stuff like this, much of which effects economies/levies/religious institutoins/etc in various ways. You are a RULER. You RULE. You pass laws. Petty shit is reflected more in abstract laws governing things like how heavily things are regulated. But in general, I want to be able to actually legislate what my filthy serfs do.

Nomads should act like in Attila Total War, they're settlements that literally move around with their armies. At least if they want to. They draw wealth more from herdable animal stocks that can grow or shrink but do require access to good land nearby, not just in their "county" but many counties around. The steppe is an empty place, mostly just so much pasture. CK2 implemented nomads horribly; they should be able to be multicultural, have different cultures/religions within the camp. The Islamic world should have nomads and hybrid systems of government scattered throughout it. There should be areas that are effectively off limits to everyone except nomads. I don't mind having the Sahara contain areas that are effectively impassable except by camelry forces, you want to conquer across the Sahara or maintain an oasis archipelago, play as desert nomads, otherwise, fuck you. I don't care if the map can be world conquered, if it can the devs failed to balance the game properly.

Navies should be like Attila Total War, in the sense that they're an extension of land combat that still allows for purpose built specialized fleets. When you load up your fleets the ships change to that "type," like an archer ship, heavy cavalry ship, etc. Naval combat has Volley, Ramming and Boarding phases and naval travel is confined to coastal provinces. Norse are an exception with the ability to transit through deep ocean, perhaps even getting exclusive access to Iceland, Greenland and Vinland (this also requires colonization mechanics, but that doesn't have to be detailed) in that way. Merchant republics and Byzantines get special naval units.

Rulers are peripatetic in Europe. You don't necessarily have a capital. You have a court and the court can move around, court may have its own buildings/assets but it's not the same thing as a capital, it just is wherever it is.

I don't remember what all else. Why the fuck did I spend so much time writing this.

P.S. Mercenaries should basically be a special type of nomad. It turns out (I had to look it up some time back) that they just kind of wandered around and tried to intimidate whoever they could when not actively fighting under a contract. Makes sense for them to be like these parasites that dynamically emerge, especially around war, and wander Europe. Don't give a shit if they're playable. I think you could say that if a mercenary captain dies without leaving anything behind he kind of failed as a warlord.

Parliaments should also be in, like Magna Carta type stuff. The Council was always too easy to manipulate but on paper I loved it. A Parliament would be a great way to represent a different type of development, you cut out the greater nobility's stranglehold but the lesser nobility - the barons and the gentry - get to step up and play a role in actively changing laws. I used to love the old Crown Authority system, yeah on paper it was worse, but in practice it felt thrilling to pass a new CA level and the fact that the whole realm got to vote meant it felt like a real act of legislation with having to rally votes to my side on a massive scale.
 
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I don't remember what all else. Why the fuck did I spend so much time writing this.
Genuinely interesting and cool, I too hate the incest and murder simulator aspects of CK2, the middle ages were violent but not hilariously violent being accused of murder was a serious charge and usually ended poorly for the person, being accused.
 
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This may look like a Vic 2 screenshot, but it's actually a work-in-progress from OpenVic. They're still slowly working on it in their free time and a fully playable version should be out by 2025.
My retarded brain gave up at figuring out how to setup a stable Vic 2 that won't CTD everytime I ran it for more than 10 minutes on my phony laptop so I hope this one is the godsend I am looking for.
 
My retarded brain gave up at figuring out how to setup a stable Vic 2 that won't CTD everytime I ran it for more than 10 minutes on my phony laptop so I hope this one is the godsend I am looking for.
I've got over 1k hours in Vic 2 and the only times it's crashed for me was due to bugs in mods that I would then report and would get fixed by the devs, perhaps it's because of the laptop?
 
After many months I visited Victoria 3 part of paradox forum and they are still scoffing at the idea of moving toy soldiers in their children video game. Don't you dare bait AI into that mountain video game player! How dare you use strategy.
SoI isn't looking that good honestly. EU5 news is really overshadowing any vicky news. Victoria 3 might be kill after the last grand edition dlc.

In the meantime I am looking forward to the Imperator Victoria mod:
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Vicky III was a real disappointment. Imperator may end up being the more successful game and it has seen something of a resurgence now which may cause Paradox to come back and give it some more support if they smell money on it.

I am cautiously optimistic over EU5 but not holding my breath given what Vicky III has been. Trust but verify and all that.

According to closer maps and news it seems that the start date of EU5 will be 1337 which puts it just before the black plague hit hard. Some people wonder if there will be a second start date so players can ignore the issues of the plague but I find that to be unlikely has Johan has gone on record before saying that multiple start dates in EU4 were a mistake due to how quickly the ended up causing massive issues.
 
On the topic of Vicky 3, is anyone else just put off by the art style and map design of it?
They were moving forwards to more and more realistic maps over time, with them peaking at Imperator which has the best looking map imo. Since then CK3 and Vic 3 have both had shittier, cartoonish maps more akin to Civ than the older mapgames
 
The great thing about Imperator map is that you can turn in into pure political map mode without transparency. I don't get the obsession with showing terrain. I guess it makes sense in HoI but even then you actually click the province to confirm terrain but it doesn't make sense not even making it optional in Victoria 3 where war plays itself.
 
Crusader Kings 3's After the End total conversion mod has finally launched on the Steam Workshop. It's been available as a separate download for a while as they patched and tested it, but last time I played (around a year ago or so) it still had some performance issues and sparsity for certain areas. Hopefully this is a good sign on things being improved since then, but I haven't gotten a chance to try it out just yet. If you're still playing CK2 and haven't tried it before, I recommend that game's version as well, it's an interesting scenario.
 
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Vicky III was a real disappointment. Imperator may end up being the more successful game and it has seen something of a resurgence now which may cause Paradox to come back and give it some more support if they smell money on it.

I am cautiously optimistic over EU5 but not holding my breath given what Vicky III has been. Trust but verify and all that.

According to closer maps and news it seems that the start date of EU5 will be 1337 which puts it just before the black plague hit hard. Some people wonder if there will be a second start date so players can ignore the issues of the plague but I find that to be unlikely has Johan has gone on record before saying that multiple start dates in EU4 were a mistake due to how quickly the ended up causing massive issues.
That is retarded. Having it start after the Black Death - same time as MEIOU and Taxes - makes more sense.
 
On the topic of Vicky 3, is anyone else just put off by the art style and map design of it?
I think Vicky 3's does the best job in that most others don't have a "natural" transition from zoomed out to zoomed in, but the aesthetic is piss poor. Generally speaking, the art is too. I can't put it exactly right, but it's like having a completely romantic, spiritualist view of the 19th century. Everything is highly idealized/romanticized. Even the art for slavery related events looks like it's cozy and not particularly much of a nuisance to the enslaved.

I certainly don't agree with the view of the 1800s being a dark age of history, it was a time of hope and mobility for all. It was just mobility in the sense that now impoverished farmers could die a little older at 60 in a factory with half a spine, but now the kids could go to school and become shop keepers rather than dying on a farm at 50 with half a spine and training the kids to do it as well. It was the best time in history to that point, but it was still rough and dirty. Vicky 3 feels like a tea party.
 
We have confirmation that Caesar starts at April 1st, 1337.

So there has been a lot of speculation on the start date, where many of you have figured out the correct start date of 1st of April 1337.

So why have we picked that date? Well, there are many reasons why.

  • It starts before the Black Death, which creates an early game challenge.
  • France’s system of feudal loyalty is tested as Edward III is about to embark upon the Hundred Years’ War
  • There is still a colony on Greenland
  • We have a big Byzantium, but Ottomans are about to expand
  • The rise of Timur is soon to happen
  • Some powers are at their zenith, but facing big challenges, such as Mali, Delhi, or Yuan
  • Some others at their start, like the Aztecs, Qusqu, Majapahit, or the Ashikaga Shogunate
  • We get to model the transition from feudalism to modern states
  • We get to model the transition from feudal levies to standing armies
  • New institutions are blooming in Italy and the rest of Europe, such as the Renaissance or Banking
  • The HRE is in a moment of change, with 3 dynasties (Wittelsbach, Luxembourg, and Habsburg) competing for it, and the Golden Bull not yet enacted
  • The Catholic church is at its height, and military orders are crusading in northeastern Europe and the Mediterranean. But the Pope resides in Avignon, which will lead to the Western Schism with Rome.
  • England’s control in the isles is waning as Bruce loyalists press the advantage in the Scottish Wars of Independence, and the Gaelic Irish chieftains begin to reclaim large tracts from the English Lordship. Meanwhile the seeds for the last great Welsh rebellion are being sewn.
  • An intricate balance of power in Iberia between the Christian kingdoms, and the last Muslim footholds.
  • A different balance of powers in regions such as Eastern Europe, the Middle East, or South East Asia.
  • The Steppe Hordes and their successors of Eurasia from the Mediterranean to the Pacific.

and much more ..

Quite interesting, could make for a very chaotic and dynamic game if they pull it off. Key here being "if", the most dangerous two letter word in the english language.
 
I like that it starts before the black death. If executed well (This is paradox lmao) it would provide an engaging early-game crisis although this could get boring and repetitive over multiple playthroughs
 
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