Programming or Trades? - "Learn to code!" VS "Learn to weld!"

[SNU]

Learn to weld. Ideally you'd go to a trade school. Mig and tig welding is always in high demand. Stick welding is great and all but you won't find a job unless you can also use tig and mig welding. Any retard can stick weld.

Once you are proficient you can find jobs everywhere. Fabrication places and workshops to start out. Keep upskilling. You can usually convince your boss to pay for various certifications like electrical testing, confined spaces, etc. Then you can get a cushy job as a maintenance guy in a big company where you just maintain and fix the equipment. It's easy and pays alright. You can chill in a role like that until retirement and be comfortable. Or you can try going for more lucrative jobs like welders on oil rigs or underwater welders. Get that danger pay boy!

 

[Cascade]

Programming provides a very important life skill: adaptation. Name 5 popular technologies from decade ago and 4 of them are probably obsolete. Yeah, the basics are the same, but it's still a lot of work to switch to new tools and learn how to squeeze the best out of them, and you get used to it. So if the LLMpocalypse comes, you can likely adapt to it as well. Oh, and if you're good at math, you can go for deep learning and help make it come sooner

But if you're still really worried about it, your probably best bet is physical work. We won't see robotic plumbers and electricians for a while yet.

 

[UERISIMILITUDO]

Programming provides a very important life skill: adaptation. Name 5 popular technologies from decade ago and 4 of them are probably obsolete.

Programming provides a very important life skill: fashion. Name five popular styles from a decade ago and four of them are probably shunned.

The basics have hardly been augmented even since the new millennium. I don't use a single programming language from this millennium. Hell, even the popular languages for which people gain employment are from the last millennium.

 

[Fastest Hand In The East]

Nobody is going to need Paralegals

Yeah nah, neural networks are not replacing legals. They can't do quality work, we've tested it, it gives shit that will take more time to fix than to do it yourself from scratch.
Besides that they give their classic evasive answers to a direct questions. This is how how shit works in the law.

 

[Foghotten]

Spoiler: Wall of replies

[...] I don't think being in a trade is classified as manual labor. Obviously it's work you're doing manually, but it isn't like you're a somalian immigrant out hauling bags of sand or something. That is manual labor, and that's NOT something you want to do long term because your body's going to start to break and it won't be worth it.

I might've mixed trade work and manual work. I need better sleep

Do tell. Which languages were involved?

I'm curious, but understand they won't be mentioned here.[...]

I do tutoring on French and English civilization and languages. I've also dabbled in Russian as a third language, but I still have lots of work to do on that front, and I've had to take a break from it for months because of uni shenanigans. The only thing I can say about one of those projects here is that it's a huge 'tism project that currently sits at 966 files I personally made over the course of this year. If you want, I could elaborate a bit more about it in PMs.

[...]What's your timeline like? It's nearly impossible to get into software development right now in the entry level. This will likely improve in the coming years, but for the time being, you won't be able to enter until the field unless you are very good and very lucky. [...]

Unfortunately, none of what I've done professionally ties into direct coding experience. The way I see things as an outsider, the current job market on that front is a huge game of project portfolios, and I like to think I would fit in, since most of the skills I currently have are all self-taught through practice. If I did huge things in fields currently lacking a future, have managed to learn human languages and on top of that mastering linguistic theory, why wouldn't I be able to at least be a medium-level programmer in a world where direct proof of competence is the name of the game?

Now that I think about it, how long does it take to reach an employable level in this field? I see a lot of programmers (presumably) ITT running gatekeeping and saying that medium-level work in programming is steep, but never elaborate on how long it takes to reach this level. I've heard several stories of high-schoolers getting hired into software dev, while I've heard about (and personally know) programmers so efficient in their fields that they can't find work anymore due to overqualification.

Honestly these are such radically different career paths that I don't think they can be compared. The right choice depends on you as a person. To be a good programmer you have to put in alot of upfront work to learn the thought process and generally be a more mental worker. People will bring up AI and Pajeets in regards to software but if you're a truly good fit for that role you won't be replaced anytime soon. If you are insightful and creative you will be fine. AI hallucinates and Pajeets place 50 if statements next to eachother. To work in the trades you have less upfront studying but have to put in alot more physical labor and be willing to get a bit dirty. As you progress you will likely progress towards more of a sales or management role so you should have good people skills. I generally don't think most people are equally suited for both and you should focus on which is a better fit for your personality.

[...] It's also exceedingly unlikely that someone builds a more dexterous and versatile tool than the human hand in that time too. It's probably easier and has the greatest chance of success to join the trades unless you truly love and are constantly fascinated by computers. If you just want money then you probably won't have the passion to learn more than the bare minimum, and then you'll be replaced by a 22 year old business analyst wielding a large language model one day.

That's the core of the paradox: I don't mind dirty and heavy work at all, and even welcome it at times. On the other hand, I also like to plan and build things from the ground-up, and deconstruct problems to better solve them, which is why I kept stable employment as a tutor for this long without ever being replaced during any of my contracts. This is why I've replied to loads of programmers in this post: it fundamentally appeals to a very autistic part of me, but details concerning that type of work are murky at best.

[...] Or you can try going for more lucrative jobs like welders on oil rigs or underwater welders. Get that danger pay boy!

I don't want my legacy to be a Kaotic video. Or be meat spaghetti. I think I'll be fine just rocking workshop or maintenance jobs

 

[reptile baht spaniard rid]

Be a tradesman who knows some programming. You’ll beat the pants off so many others it’s not even funny, especially once you’re running your own shit.

Also advantage of the trades is you can easily move basically anywhere and find work, programming (for the biggest bucks) is more restricted to the major areas. But assembly-line-of-business programming does exist everywhere.

If you do go trades, the moment you have a waiting list start upping your prices. People will pay damn good money, way more than you think.

 

[Grub]

Those mouth breathing retards deserve to be miserable. That said, you couldn't pay me to work in unconditioned houses all summer.

I don't mind rough ins for new construction. It's nice having all the walls open and it's way better working in a nice clean crawl space or open attic than it is working in dirty rat filled holes or attics blazing with the heat of a million suns. Plus you've usually got other contractors around to chat with and music going and shit like that.

If I wasn't stuck on playing in the dirt, I would being looking at HVACR, preferably somewhere that does mostly commercial and light industrial.

I haven't done much commercial but from what I've heard the hours are killer. A lot of commercial systems can only be worked on overnight. There's a lot of graveyards and all hours call outs. The guy I work with still leaves his phone on 24/7 and wakes up at the drop of a dime just out of habit from his commercial days. There's no saying no. You get a call at 3am that a freezer's busted, you're getting up at 3am and hopping into that truck and going to fix that freezer. It is good money though and commercial systems are totally different to work on then residential ones.

 

[Unarmed Gunman]

Work with your brain, not with your back.

This was great advice before AI proved most programmer jobs will be obsolete by the end of the decade.

You know what AI can't do? Install a furnace or wire a house. So do that when young, build up your business and then hire others to break their backs for you.

 

[UERISIMILITUDO]

The only thing I can say about one of those projects here is that it's a huge 'tism project that currently sits at 966 files I personally made over the course of this year. If you want, I could elaborate a bit more about it in PMs.

I'd like that.

 

[Waifu Denier]

You know what AI can't do? Install a furnace or wire a house. So do that when young, build up your business and then hire others to break their backs for you.

You are missing the point if you fixate on the effect of AI. The logic applies to programming as well. Even before the proliferation of LLMs codemonkeys were the poorly paid Pajeets while people in actual secure and well paying jobs were those who directed others in projects. Same with many fields, the lead animator doesn't have to be the one spending long hours doing the transitional frames.

 

[DiggieSmalls]

Get into pipefitting. The benefits that some unions have are government tier. I'm talking full healthcare, pension. You can retire early. Every pipefitter I know has a nice house and a new car and not swimming in debt. I know a lot of programmers that can barely afford a 1 bedroom. Plus, the work by and large for doing software is boring shit and you really have to enjoy it to care to do it. If i had a son id encourage a trade over compsci any day. In fact, if I could go back I would have gone for a trade.

 

[thumbless]

As others have said more advanced programmers will still be needed to check and fix AI code, just like they review and correct offshore shit coding now. AI can't fix server hardware either.

Portfolios are important to breaking in. Throw something on github and let the world take it apart. Certificates are often more valuable than degrees and don't take that long. You can get a cert and use that to get on a pro bono non profit project to build your portfolio.

How long it takes to get from entry to mid tier depends on how much punishment you're willing to take. If you work at a startup you can rise faster as they grow but it's 90 hour weeks sometimes and most startups fail. But for pure experience you'll get more faster in that world. Consider technical sales too. If you're legitimately educated about a tech product you can use a sales job as a foot in the door.

Something that AI can't do is understand a business process and gather requirements, or make judgment calls on efficient design or intuitive user interfaces. There will be a consolidation where business analysts and design types are expected to know just enough code and how to use an AI to be able to input requirements and get a first pass at the build themselves.

Having skills that bridge the gaps between different parts of a business and the developers will put you in a better place than someone who only codes.

 

[User names must be unique]

electrician is the way to go, some nerd can design a system but he'll still need you to hook it up to mains power for insurance purposes.

 

[sadrefrigerator]

Unfortunately, none of what I've done professionally ties into direct coding experience. The way I see things as an outsider, the current job market on that front is a huge game of project portfolios, and I like to think I would fit in, since most of the skills I currently have are all self-taught through practice. If I did huge things in fields currently lacking a future, have managed to learn human languages and on top of that mastering linguistic theory, why wouldn't I be able to at least be a medium-level programmer in a world where direct proof of competence is the name of the game?

Now that I think about it, how long does it take to reach an employable level in this field? I see a lot of programmers (presumably) ITT running gatekeeping and saying that medium-level work in programming is steep, but never elaborate on how long it takes to reach this level. I've heard several stories of high-schoolers getting hired into software dev, while I've heard about (and personally know) programmers so efficient in their fields that they can't find work anymore due to overqualification.

So right now, I can tell based on the way you talk about "coding" that you don't have the necessary skills and understanding to be an effective developer and furthermore you don't understand what the job of being a software developer entails. This is important because if you were to get to a meeting with a hiring manager, you would have no chance of passing. Noone really cares about a portfolio outside of freelance.
As I said earlier, right now it is extremely hard to break into the field as an entry level developer. This is because when companies cut back on hiring, they eliminate the junior developer positions first. This will likely improve in the coming years, but don't expect to be able to get in anytime within a year. The cases where juniors get in now that I mentioned is for example one of my friends who recently completed a program where they had a connection with one of the bad consulting firms.
Overqualification is complete bullshit. If someone is telling you they can't find a job due to overqualification they are lying or don't know what their actual faults are.
I've helped a number of friends break into the field in the past. Its not really a timeframe. You need to know how to do all the basic stuff, and you need to know how to interview. Usually getting to the point where they can deploy a backend api on something like fly or render, and make a React SPA frontend for it hosted on netlify is enough to confidently know the basics. After that, interviewing is a game of numbers.

 

[SuperConglomerateWhale]

Programming as a hobby and commission source, manual labor for big bucks and potential early retirement and/or disability checks

Those mouth breathing retards deserve to be miserable. That said, you couldn't pay me to work in unconditioned houses all summer.

If I wasn't stuck on playing in the dirt, I would being looking at HVACR, preferably somewhere that does mostly commercial and light industrial.

I'm currently slogging through an apprenticeship with a union and it sucks because the scale is a percentage below journeyman and I know and do more than an average apprentice, so I've been taking on sidework. I pulled about $4,000 out of my savings to invest in refrigeration tools and material like a good recovery machine, vacuum pump, reefer leak detector, charge scale, nitrogen tank and regulator, personal stock of refrigerant and various manifold accessories. After 4 months of a slow sidework load I've made back double what I put in. This past weekend I spent about two hours recovering and pressurizing a system for a leak check and after quoting the fix (evap, txv, filter driers on both liquid and suction) I was paid $400 and when I go back to do the replacement I'll get about $2,500. $400 for a couple of hours is pretty good I'll be honest.

 

[Mitt Doggy Dogg]

electrician is the way to go, some nerd can design a system but he'll still need you to hook it up to mains power for insurance purposes.

I'd say HVAC is better then electrician just from personal experience. Where I live when I was a electric back in the late 90s-2000s you would top out under $20 in HVAC in the same town I was making about 38.5 and working 50-70 hours all summer long. Plus I got better benefits. But maybe in a city like I grew up in which required union workers you could do a lot better. I'd say it depends on where you are.

 

[Not Really Here]

Depends on what your brain can do.
Trades are great, they let you rob a wide variety of people who think a few screws on an outlet is too much, and will pay you $200 to swap one out. If you can sneak an earphone on the job, you have hours of available time to learn other things, or just think about other ideas while you do the same thing repeatedly.

You remove the telecommute option with trades, so your competition is all fairly local to your area, vs a coder who could be anywhere.

New construction is a bad option, remodel/service work is more mentally challenging, higher pay, and usually climate controlled, but comes with the downside of often being night work.

If you do choose a trade, your best option to make money(outside of a cushy nepotistic union job) is to enter with a plan to start your own business.

There's really not enough to tell you what's the best choice without a raft of personal information, so I would have to say take a year, find a trade you think is interesting, make sure your area needs more of those tradesmen, and give it a shot while doing prep work for becoming a coder.

 

[baws man jack]

I'm a developer, the idea that pajeets/AI/troons/niggers or any other wonderful group could take over the tech space is laughable. If you've used AI you know it's borderline retarded and often struggles to follow simple instructions. Will it get better? Sure, no doubt. But I do not believe that it will ever get to the point of being even human level (some would argue that it's already there but like I said it's retarded).

We saw that Devin demo recently where it looked like it was completing sequential tasks but it was faked. Truth is I think a lot of these AI companies have hit the upper limits of the current LLMs and that exponential advancement is really just minor tweaks and marketing. The fear about AI being this big bad scary monster is nothing more than big players going for regulatory capture.

As for replacement of labor with pajeets. Yes that will happen in the short term as the economy constricts. But if you've ever been unlucky enough to work with them you'd know just how horrible it is. People want cheap right now but eventually quality will deteriorate (if they can even deliver the product at all). Trust me when I say this they don't just shit in the streets.... It's in the code too.

That being said, what path you takes depends on how you want to live your life.

Do you like being active throughout the day and/or hate sitting at a desk for long periods? Trades

Do you want access to a steady paycheck faster? Trades

Want to own a business one day? Trades (this one is kid of 50/50 because any retard can wire up some new kewl amazing app and tack stripe onto it but getting customers is much harder)

Higher earning potential for a regular employee over the long term? Dev

Ease of the job? Dev (don't lie to yourselves, the job is easy compared to back breaking work)

IMO safest bet is to get in to the trades now (money faster), learn development on the side (yewtewb), If you end up liking it make the switch. You could always start with the dev but the turnaround will be a lot longer before you actually start making money.

Spoiler

You could always be like my nigga bossman jack, smoke crack and stream gambling. He makes 700k a year doing that

 

[Ayana Otonashi]

whichever you feel more comfortable doing

 

[Klaptrap]

Welding maybe, but as a guy who knows electricians.. I don't want their life.
My buddy spent years as an apprentice in Wake up at 4->Work->bed by 7 hell. It's hard to avoid becoming a joe sixpack who just veges in front of the tv for the few hours you have off. He's finally reached journeyman and it seems like more of a manageable life, but in his own words he's "locked into this path forever now." It also seems rough dating-wise just given the physical exhaustion and weekday hours.
He seems satisfied though so I'm super happy for him.

---

I'm currently learning HTML (LMAO I know, when I think about how much of a noob I am I wanna die,) planning to go on to CSS, Java, Python data analytics stuff, ect. and figure it will be years and more languages before I would get any type of tech job.

Mainly I'm doing it to add skills to my resume to make me more attractive in my current field (not gonna powerlevel, but it's not tech, the job search/market is going shit and I've seen all of these listed as qualifications for some of the jobs in my field so I figure, why not?)

It's fun so far, but am I fucking up and just wasting my time?