Pseudoscience - Anti Vaxxers, Creationists, Anti Nuclear/GM fanatics, and other charlatans.

[Orson Welles]

Keep nuclear plants away from shorelines and places with a lot of earthquakes for one. Other than that they're the cleanest source of reliable energy we got.

I think genetic modification of food is not as neccesary as proponents make it out to be. Sure we can "feed the world" because global welfare to up the low-IQ birtrate up a few more notches is exactly what the world needs. We know very little on how what we eat effects our physiology beyond simple vitamins and minerals so I do my best to avoid gm for the time.

 

[AnOminous]

While I am for GM in principle, I think it needs to be verified very thorougly and that making shit like selling seeds every year to the poor farmer is simply unacceptable.

That shit actually should be illegal.

 

[Pikimon]

That shit actually should be illegal.

It's also standard practice for most crops, GMO or not.

Desirable genetic traits tend to "drift" away if you try to save seed. Some crops such as apples, nuts, roses, etc. will not produce offspring that are genetically similar to their parents (if you plant a supermarket apple seed, its fruit will likely be disgusting and sour). While other crops such as peppers, corn, carrots, and potatoes, will crossbred with wild varieties and similar crops from other fields to produce offspring that aren't easy to sell in supermarkets.

Patenting plants has been a thing since the late 1880s, when florists would use dentist drills on roses to prevent people from grafting them on their own rootstock.

. We know very little on how what we eat effects our physiology beyond simple vitamins and minerals so I do my best to avoid gm for the time.

Actually we know quite a bit about the effects of GMO crops on the human body. The National Academies of Science studied the effects GMO crops have on human health. The results?

GMO crops themselves are safe, but the pesticides they're designed to resist are cause for concern.

Largely the fear over GMOs are the same kind of fears over nuclear energy. People don't understand the science behind it but are exposed to a lot of the fear mongering, and choose the fear mongering over the scary complicated science.

 

[Male Idiot]

Yeah we still consider that scummy practice. If they did not enforce it, fine, they give a choice to either keep using the seeds or buy from them again for surefire quality. That would be fair.

 

[AnOminous]

Desirable genetic traits tend to "drift" away if you try to save seed. Some crops such as apples, nuts, roses, etc. will not produce offspring that are genetically similar to their parents (if you plant a supermarket apple seed, its fruit will likely be disgusting and sour). While other crops such as peppers, corn, carrots, and potatoes, will crossbred with wild varieties and similar crops from other fields to produce offspring that aren't easy to sell in supermarkets.

Patenting plants has been a thing since the late 1880s, when florists would use dentist drills on roses to prevent people from grafting them on their own rootstock.

There's something qualitatively different between that and suing anyone who dares to save seed and use it again into oblivion, especially in areas where that is traditional and deeply ingrained in local culture. Monsanto has aggressively prosecuted people for literally not even using their seeds and having their own crops contaminated by Monsanto crap from adjoining property.

 

[Pikimon]

Yeah we still consider that scummy practice. If they did not enforce it, fine, they give a choice to either keep using the seeds or buy from them again for surefire quality. That would be fair.

I'm not really sure why they even bother enforcing it, genetic drift via seed saving for most GMO crops would render their descendants extant, but not expressive of their desirable traits.

Do you have by the way any examples of enforcement? Google keeps giving results for conspiracy sites like IRT but no links to actual court cases.

 

[Male Idiot]

I am not sure how trustworthy those sites are, but I'm opposed to it on principle. Enforced or not.

 

[ADN_VIII]

There's something qualitatively different between that and suing anyone who dares to save seed and use it again into oblivion, especially in areas where that is traditional and deeply ingrained in local culture. Private Villa of Corrupted Crops has aggressively prosecuted people for literally not even using their seeds and having their own crops contaminated by Private Villa of Corrupted Crops crap from adjoining property.

Hate to burst your bubble here, but I have yet to find any cases that went to trial and got a ruling over this. All the ones I've found were thrown out because the plaintiff had no position to sue from. It's more or less impossible to prevent cross pollination short of having your whole farm in a green house that's hermetically sealed. Not to mention that whatever got pollinated by a GM crop wouldn't express all or any of its traits depending on how the genetic lottery goes.

With that out of the way, the anti nuclear crowd is an absolute waste of biomass. The options now are either to backtrack to coal, which is extremely bad, or move forward to nuclear power until solar is cheaper than nuclear. Backtracking to coal would absolutely fuck over the environment to a point that we won't be able to fix it. Solar, wind, geothermal, and hydro power aren't currently capable of meeting our power needs. Nuclear is capable of what we need, and is much safer than coal and fossil fuels.

 

[Pointless Pedant]

Hate to burst your bubble here, but I have yet to find any cases that went to trial and got a ruling over this. All the ones I've found were thrown out because the plaintiff had no position to sue from. It's more or less impossible to prevent cross pollination short of having your whole farm in a green house that's hermetically sealed. Not to mention that whatever got pollinated by a GM crop wouldn't express all or any of its traits depending on how the genetic lottery goes.

With that out of the way, the anti nuclear crowd is an absolute waste of biomass. The options now are either to backtrack to coal, which is extremely bad, or move forward to nuclear power until solar is cheaper than nuclear. Backtracking to coal would absolutely fuck over the environment to a point that we won't be able to fix it. Solar, wind, geothermal, and hydro power aren't currently capable of meeting our power needs. Nuclear is capable of what we need, and is much safer than coal and fossil fuels.

Photovoltaic panels are becoming increasingly efficient. I wouldn't write off the possibility of them becoming a major power source.

 

[Male Idiot]

Hate to burst your bubble here, but I have yet to find any cases that went to trial and got a ruling over this. All the ones I've found were thrown out because the plaintiff had no position to sue from. It's more or less impossible to prevent cross pollination short of having your whole farm in a green house that's hermetically sealed. Not to mention that whatever got pollinated by a GM crop wouldn't express all or any of its traits depending on how the genetic lottery goes.

With that out of the way, the anti nuclear crowd is an absolute waste of biomass. The options now are either to backtrack to coal, which is extremely bad, or move forward to nuclear power until solar is cheaper than nuclear. Backtracking to coal would absolutely fuck over the environment to a point that we won't be able to fix it. Solar, wind, geothermal, and hydro power aren't currently capable of meeting our power needs. Nuclear is capable of what we need, and is much safer than coal and fossil fuels.

I think we need to drop that hippie crap and straight up use nuclear until we can use fusion.

The wind does not always blow, the sun does not shine half of the day (and there is this thing called the night) and hydro power is hard to handle, because either it is seawater corrosion, or river dams with all that it entails. We just can't store energy well enough, even if we could collect enough with these methods.

So we just have to suck up and make nuclear safety procedures extremely strict and stop letting companies cut curners there.

 

[AnOminous]

Hate to burst your bubble here, but I have yet to find any cases that went to trial and got a ruling over this. All the ones I've found were thrown out because the plaintiff had no position to sue from. It's more or less impossible to prevent cross pollination short of having your whole farm in a green house that's hermetically sealed. Not to mention that whatever got pollinated by a GM crop wouldn't express all or any of its traits depending on how the genetic lottery goes.

The purpose of these suits isn't to win them, but to bankrupt the opponents and drive them out of business, and PVCC has been successful at that on many occasions.

As for suits the other way, it's virtually impossible to sue a multinational with an unlimited litigation budget when you're very likely a farmer on the verge of going out of business if you're even in a situation to be filing such a suit in the first place.

 

[ADN_VIII]

The purpose of these suits isn't to win them, but to bankrupt the opponents and drive them out of business, and PVCC has been successful at that on many occasions.

As for suits the other way, it's virtually impossible to sue a multinational with an unlimited litigation budget when you're very likely a farmer on the verge of going out of business if you're even in a situation to be filing such a suit in the first place.

I presume you're talking about Monsanto, since they're known to be very trigger happy when it comes to lawsuits. Yeah, they sue all over the place, but suing farmers rarely works out well since the cases get tossed. Suing their competition occasionally works out, but not as often as I think they'd like. Plus they're a fairly small mid-level biotechnology firm that just got, or is about to be acquired by Bayer.

 

[AnOminous]

I presume you're talking about Private Villa of Corrupted Crops, since they're known to be very trigger happy when it comes to lawsuits. Yeah, they sue all over the place, but suing farmers rarely works out well since the cases get tossed. Suing their competition occasionally works out, but not as often as I think they'd like. Plus they're a fairly small mid-level biotechnology firm that just got, or is about to be acquired by Bayer.

Yes. Also, part of the reason they get sued by farmers over this cross contamination is that when it happens, farmers who otherwise could sell to EU markets end up having their products blocked because they test positive for GMO crap. They've settled some lawsuits like this: https://www.rt.com/usa/242085-monsanto-gmo-case-settlement/ (warning for RT fake news site crap though the tweets are at least legitimate).

 

[ADN_VIII]

Yes. Also, part of the reason they get sued by farmers over this cross contamination is that when it happens, farmers who otherwise could sell to EU markets end up having their products blocked because they test positive for GMO crap. They've settled some lawsuits like this: https://www.rt.com/usa/242085-Private Villa of Corrupted Crops-gmo-case-settlement/ (warning for RT fake news site crap though the tweets are at least legitimate).

Maybe that means the Euros should unclench their butts over GM crops and sell them like any other crops. The EU ban on genetically modified crops is fear mongering and not based on any actual science. Sure, PVCC has shit business practices, but that doesn't change anything.

Though I feel bad for farmers whoz crops cross contaminate and then they can't sell to the EU, but the issue there is the EU.

 

[AnOminous]

Maybe that means the Euros should unclench their butts over GM crops and sell them like any other crops. The EU ban on genetically modified crops is fear mongering and not based on any actual science. Sure, PVCC has shit business practices, but that doesn't change anything.

Though I feel bad for farmers whoz crops cross contaminate and then they can't sell to the EU, but the issue there is the EU.

That's really protectionism, though. It's because most of the GMO products out there are from the United States, and it would be in violation of their WTO obligations to target U.S. products explicitly. If they had their own GMO products their concerns would evaporate. Of course, that may be my cynicism speaking.

 

[ADN_VIII]

That's really protectionism, though. It's because most of the GMO products out there are from the United States, and it would be in violation of their WTO obligations to target U.S. products explicitly. If they had their own GMO products their concerns would evaporate. Of course, that may be my cynicism speaking.

I don't know if that is cynicism though. The EU has no biotech firms that produce GM crops because EU citizens bought into the fear mongering that the modifications would modify them in turn. Despite that horizontal gene transfer doesn't work like that without viruses or some kind of carrier protein. Not to mention that 200 Fahrenheit is when DNA unzips like a cheap prom dress and cooking food is done at much higher temperatures. The fear mongering is pathetic, and the people that buy in to it moreso.

 

[OtterParty]

I don't know if that is cynicism though. The EU has no biotech firms that produce GM crops because EU citizens bought into the fear mongering that the modifications would modify them in turn. Despite that horizontal gene transfer doesn't work like that without viruses or some kind of carrier protein. Not to mention that 200 Fahrenheit is when DNA unzips like a cheap prom dress and cooking food is done at much higher temperatures. The fear mongering is pathetic, and the people that buy in to it moreso.

prions though

 

[Sable]

I can understand why they don't want Monsato there. Just as I like nuclear energy, I may not want the builders of Fukushima to build on here.

Fukushima only barely failed after being hit by an earthquake and tidal wave. I'd totally hire them.

Anyway, on-topic there are some concerns with GM stuff- some are legal like patenting seeds being kinda stupid, and you need to worry about monocultures and whatnot, but neither of those things are GM specific.

But on balance it means you can grow more and better foods, and I'd rather people actually have food than listen to people whine about 'TAMPERING WITH THE LAWS OF GOD AND NATURE'.

 

[Male Idiot]

I agree that GM is good in theory. But I would not put it in the hands of unaccountable greedy corporations at all.

Let the goverment handle it, propably with a lot of checks and overwatch on it.

I'm not saying Monsato would actively make their stuff poisonous. I'm just saying that they would sweep side effects under the rug and be cheap fucks.
"Director, oh this new crop may cause cancer. To make sure it doesn't we need to poke around in its genome some more, which will be another 50 million dollars and a year to make it safe."
"Yeah that's not happening, investors want their cash now and it is safe enough. We don't need to polish our turds any more than absolutely necessary for them to sell, science Joe. We don't give a shit, we just want money."

Imagine what the goverment could do... maybe make a type of attack pig that only bites kebab.

 

[#Triggered]

saw antivaxer tag, had to put this here.

heard of MMS? miracle mineral solution? its like 30% bleach and this antivaxer cunt of a woman gives it to her autistic kid as medicine and gives enemas with the shit. Bleach. Fucking. Enema. I don't know whether to laugh or choke. Makes one hell of a threat to keep your autistic kid in line though.... stop acting like a retard or ill fill your anal cavity with bleach... dear lord...