Pseudoscience - Anti Vaxxers, Creationists, Anti Nuclear/GM fanatics, and other charlatans.

[The Knife's Husbando]

Speak for yourself. CompyRex uses the Information Super Highway to read articles for his neurosurgery practice. I use it for my aerospace engineering designs. And the rest of the folks have become top-notch Christorians.

And I use it for researching metalworking, life-casting design, ballistics, and chemistry. The three of us (and our intellectual brethren) are in the tiniest percentage of people not using Smartphones for something stupid.

 

[exball]

I look at cat pictures on Reddit. They are cute cats.

 

[Marvin]

May be a little off-topic, but one of my pet peeves about the modern "Age of Information"?

Approximately sixty years ago we- as a species- made it from the earth to the moon, using only sheer balls and slide rules.

Point blank: Today, RIGHT NOW. Your laptop or cellphone has more than a thousand times the computing power and processing speed of the entire NASA mainframe at the time of the moon landing. And what do we use these powerful devices for? In tota, as a species? Exploring this wonderful universe and all it's beautiful manifestations? Personal growth in the expansions of our minds via co-existence with different cultures? Expanding our understanding of both the finite physical universe and our infinite interactions of the awesome machinery of nature?

Nope.

We look at cat videos, and bitch about restaurants.

Kill. Me. Faster.

Pfft, that's retarded. Technology is supposed to improve our lives. If it doesn't do that, then it's pointless. Shit like that is like the Burj Khalifa, it's just a dick measuring contest with ourselves with pointless applications of fancy technology.

Until a given piece of technology actually benefits people, it's no better nor worse than cat videos. (Well, except cat videos benefit us now, by being entertaining.)

 

[A-№1]

I don't debate with creationists online.

I do, but not for the sake of the creationists; hard core creationists, by definition, will not be swayed by logic and reason and facts, so it's generally easier to wait and let natural selection take care of them. I do it, online and in real life, more for the sake of the audience, who are often all too easily seduced by the simple stupidity of creationism; creationism doesn't require people to think, which is hard, just believe, which is easy. This is especially important when the audience is in charge of things like textbook selection etc.

It's a toxic behavior that does nothing good for your psyche, well-being, or mood as a rational, logical person.

I think that depends on how you go about it. If you find yourself getting angry or frustrated, then you should probably stop. However, if you take it less seriously, such as treating it as an opportunity to troll creationists with reality, it can be good mental exercise.

You can quote as much repeatable scientific information as you like, and all they will do is stand there yelling "BIBLE! BIBLE! BIBLE!" at the top of their lungs. We have all the data, supported by centuries of research in myriad cross-connected scientific fields, and all they have is a mis-translated two thousand year old book of folklore.

Which is why I often find it amusing to fight creationism with creationism. I'll sometimes "agree" with them that yes, the world was created by a powerful god. Odin made the world out of the corpse of the giant Ymir. He made the sky out of Ymir's skull. The rivers are made from his veins. His fluffy giant brains became the clouds. Detroit was once Ymir's rectum. "Really it makes a lot of sense when you think about it. And we know it must be true because Odin himself said so as told in the Voluspa of the Elder Edda."

This has a double benefit of really infuriating the creationists while pointing out to onlookers just how damn silly and irrational both myths are when someone tries to pretend they're historical fact.

Approximately sixty years ago we- as a species- made it from the earth to the moon, using only sheer balls and slide rules.

But we didn't do that as a species.

What really happened was a small group of very clever bodgers really, really wanted to put a man on the moon. For reasons. And so they got together with another small group of quite cunning bastards who managed to convince the U.S. government and people that this was the best way to show the Russians that American Dick is bigger than Russian Dick. Oh, and work out and demonstrate the technology to rain destruction down on the Russians from space should they violently disagree.

As a species we just sat and watched the whole thing on television, and most of us didn't even do that. But then that's true for most change, including, to reference a previous topic in this thread, evolution. Innovation almost never comes out of a group as a whole, but almost always from a small sub-group within the general population.

Point blank: Today, RIGHT NOW. Your laptop or cellphone has more than a thousand times the computing power and processing speed of the entire NASA mainframe at the time of the moon landing.

Which isn't entirely relevant because computing power is not what gets people to the moon. Once you've worked out the orbits ahead of time it's almost like chucking a rock. That's why Apollo 13 was probably the most impressive of all the Apollos: shit happened for which they didn't have it all worked out ahead of time and they had to figure things out by the seat of their pants.

And what do we use these powerful devices for? In tota, as a species? Exploring this wonderful universe and all it's beautiful manifestations? Personal growth in the expansions of our minds via co-existence with different cultures? Expanding our understanding of both the finite physical universe and our infinite interactions of the awesome machinery of nature?

Nope.

We look at cat videos, and bitch about restaurants.

Also porn. A LOT of porn. Which always happens with every new technology. People were talking about the possibility of brothels on the moon even before Apollo 11 put a man there.

Kill. Me. Faster.

It's better just to laugh at it.

I mean seriously, their banana argument? Google "artisan banana plants".

Never mind the fact that bananas have been unnaturally selected for human use by human cultivation for millennia. Creationists wouldn't know a wild banana if it bit them on the ass. Not that they would understand that point. I find the best way to deal with the ridiculous banana argument is by scaring the creationists away by putting a condom on it. "See how it was perfectly designed by the creator to demonstrate safe sex in our schools?"

Pfft, that's retarded. Technology is supposed to improve our lives. If it doesn't do that, then it's pointless. Shit like that is like the Burj Khalifa, it's just a dick measuring contest with ourselves with pointless applications of fancy technology.

Until a given piece of technology actually benefits people, it's no better nor worse than cat videos. (Well, except cat videos benefit us now, by being entertaining.)

Well despite what I said above about dick measuring, the Apollo Project and the Space Race in general did actually benefit people, though largely through intangibles and side benefits (it also did a LOT to stabilize the Cold War which was a hell of a good thing). For example: without the heavy lift, high orbit technology developed for Apollo, geostationary orbits would not be achievable. That means no geostationary communications satellites, which mean no satellite television, which means no 24/7 satellite television porno channels (I'm assuming those are a thing - probably a safe assumption). The great benefit of 24/7 porno channels that that they keep the sort of people who would watch 24/7 porno (mostly teenagers) occupied. Otherwise those people might leave their homes to find other ways to occupy themselves, and nobody really wants that.

Also the poor Canadians would be stuck with nothing but Canadian broadcasting if they couldn't sneak across the border to buy U.S. mini-dish receivers. And you can forget satellite internet, GPS, decent weather forecasting, and so on and on with other things that benefit us on a daily basis (which a lot of young people these days seem to take for granted).

As to the intangibles, well Apollo was a huge step forward in manned space exploration, even though we've done fuck all in that direction since. And that's probably the most important thing it did, because it helps give humanity the most important benefit of all: a future. I know this might sound sappy in these cynical, jaded times, but it's still true. In the long term, humanity's future is Out There, because if it isn't, well then we don't have a future.

Extinction is for chumps.

 

[Marvin]

Well despite what I said above about dick measuring, the Apollo Project and the Space Race in general did actually benefit people, though largely through intangibles and side benefits (it also did a LOT to stabilize the Cold War which was a hell of a good thing). For example: without the heavy lift, high orbit technology developed for Apollo, geostationary orbits would not be achievable. That means no geostationary communications satellites, which mean no satellite television, which means no 24/7 satellite television porno channels (I'm assuming those are a thing - probably a safe assumption). The great benefit of 24/7 porno channels that that they keep the sort of people who would watch 24/7 porno (mostly teenagers) occupied. Otherwise those people might leave their homes to find other ways to occupy themselves, and nobody really wants that.

Also the poor Canadians would be stuck with nothing but Canadian broadcasting if they couldn't sneak across the border to buy U.S. mini-dish receivers. And you can forget satellite internet, GPS, decent weather forecasting, and so on and on with other things that benefit us on a daily basis (which a lot of young people these days seem to take for granted).

As to the intangibles, well Apollo was a huge step forward in manned space exploration, even though we've done fuck all in that direction since. And that's probably the most important thing it did, because it helps give humanity the most important benefit of all: a future. I know this might sound sappy in these cynical, jaded times, but it's still true. In the long term, humanity's future is Out There, because if it isn't, well then we don't have a future.

Extinction is for chumps.

Oh, absolutely. Those benefits exist and they're exactly what justifies investments into ambitious new technologies. But those sort of investments are done on large scales, by governments. On the level of individuals, one shouldn't judge someone because they're choosing to invest their time on earth in something other than the hard sciences.

 

[A-№1]

Oh, absolutely. Those benefits exist and they're exactly what justifies investments into ambitious new technologies.

As far as technology is concerned, yes it should have a use even if that use is pretty useless (because otherwise it isn't really technology). However something can be said for the pursuit of pure scientific knowledge for its own sake. Like there's not very much that's useful about the search for and study of giant squid, but that's OK because giant squid are awesome.

But those sort of investments are done on large scales, by governments.

Not precisely. Certainly governments are one of the larger investors in projects without a real or immediate benefit, but they are not the only ones and not even the largest collective investors. Even during the most expensive years of Apollo, we still spent more money on cosmetics than anything to do with space or even science in general.

On the level of individuals, one shouldn't judge someone because they're choosing to invest their time on earth in something other than the hard sciences.

I don't think anyone in this thread is doing that though. Certainly there are worthwhile pursuits other than the sciences. For example: Poetry can get you laid a lot easier than mass spectrometry. I think science only came up in this thread as a counter example to the not-really-scientific creationists and homeopathic snake oil hucksters. This thread is not promoting science as the only worthwhile pursuit, it's just pointing out some pursuits that are absolutely not worthwhile.

It's kind of like this: I would much rather see taxpayer money going to put giant squid in aquariums for me to gawk at (because giant squid are awesome) than buying legos for lazy, unproductive manbabies. But I would much rather the government buy Chris all the legos he can eat than see one penny of taxpayer money spent on school textbooks that include creationist hokum.

 

[Marvin]

As far as technology is concerned, yes it should have a use even if that use is pretty useless (because otherwise it isn't really technology). However something can be said for the pursuit of pure scientific knowledge for its own sake. Like there's not very much that's useful about the search for and study of giant squid, but that's OK because giant squid are awesome.

Eh, that stuff can be neat, but that's up to you to decide.

Not precisely. Certainly governments are one of the larger investors in projects without a real or immediate benefit, but they are not the only ones and not even the largest collective investors. Even during the most expensive years of Apollo, we still spent more money on cosmetics than anything to do with space or even science in general.

*Governments or people with a lot of money to piss away.

I don't think anyone in this thread is doing that though. Certainly there are worthwhile pursuits other than the sciences. For example: Poetry can get you laid a lot easier than mass spectrometry. I think science only came up in this thread as a counter example to the not-really-scientific creationists and homeopathic snake oil hucksters. This thread is not promoting science as the only worthwhile pursuit, it's just pointing out some pursuits that are absolutely not worthwhile.

It's kind of like this: I would much rather see taxpayer money going to put giant squid in aquariums for me to gawk at (because giant squid are awesome) than buying legos for lazy, unproductive manbabies. But I would much rather the government buy Chris all the legos he can eat than see one penny of taxpayer money spent on school textbooks that include creationist hokum.

No, I was more addressing complaints about people using modern technology for trite purposes, instead of flying to the moon, like it should be used for. See the post I quoted.

 

[A-№1]

Eh, that stuff can be neat, but that's up to you to decide.

Well it's more up to the people spending the money to decide, but if someone is going to spend a lot of their money looking for giant squid, I'm certainly not going to say no.

*Governments or people with a lot of money to piss away.

Or a lot of people with a little money each to piss away. And to be honest people can piss away their money any way they choose as far as I'm concerned, just so long as it is their money. My biggest complaint about Chris' lego purchases is that he wastes other people's money. Even creationists don't really bother me all that much except when they try to get taxpayer money spent to promote their lies. If they want to spend millions of their own money on stupid creationist museums for me to laugh at, well more fool them.

No, I was more addressing complaints about people using modern technology for trite purposes, instead of flying to the moon, like it should be used for. See the post I quoted.

Technology is just a thing. Trite or serious, good or bad, beneficial or harmful, each can only be used to describe how people use the technology, not the technology itself. Smart phones are used a lot more for putting self photographs on facebook than as a cheap way to control autonomous robots, but they ARE being used to control mobile robots. However the motivation to put a multicore computer with wireless communications and high resolution cameras into an inexpensive, incredibly compact, lightweight, long battery life package was not autonomous robotics, even though it's almost perfectly suited for that purpose. The motivation was actually to sell them to silly people with disposable income who wanted to take better, faster selfies. If better, faster selfies are what it takes to get powerful, small, multipurpose computers, well then so be it.

I guess the point I'm trying to make, both to you and The Knife's Husbando, is that it's pointless to argue either way on whether technologies (or sciences) are worthwhile or not, because what matters is what people, as individuals, do with them. Technologies developed for worthwhile purposes can be re-purposed for silly ones, and technologies developed for silly purposes can be re-purposed for very useful ones. Even the pursuit of completely useless things like bragging rights for having the tallest building have useful side benefits of developing new construction techniques.

Meanwhile, creationism is definitely worthless, because it's a lie. But it can be fun to laugh at creationists.

 

[Anonimo]

.......the reality of evolution does indeed disprove biblical creationism. If things happened as the scientific theory states, and the evidence is overwhelming that it did, then that means that NO, things were not 'created' as they are ten thousand years ago. It conflicts with every story in the biblical genesis. Even if what you're proposing is 'intelligent design' or god-driven planned evolution or sommat, you still have to prove such a god exists before you can even hypothesize that it wanted all this shit to happen and intended it.

It's okay to believe in fairies if you really want to. Just accept that the evidence doesn't support this and in some cases also does a lot to break such claims apart like dry saltines under a tractor.

Personally, I think something has to be out there. Maybe it's a god, maybe it's something resembling what we call a god, maybe there's nothing, or maybe it's just something else entirely. Like "It's God, Jim, but not as we know it." I'll keep an open mind because I know that there are things I may never fully understand, but if I'm proven wrong, I won't look like an idiot(or at least I won't look as idiotic) when it happens.

I may very well have made myself a lolcow for saying that...

 

[Chikinballs]

Havent combed through the thread yet, but vaccines worry me. Not for autism or anything, but because i dont trust the government. It always makes me think of the tuskeegee experiments.

But i dont and wont have kids, so my opinion on them is relatively unimportant.

 

[Axiom]

Even IF, for some unknown and unknowable reason, there IS something dangerous in standard vaccinations, the overwhelming evidence is that deaths, particularly of children, have plummeted to a fraction of what they were a century ago since vaccinating became routine. Polio and measels can cripple for life, too. Chicken pox can give you shingles later in life, which is very much not fun. Call me quirky, but I'll take my chances with the shots.

 

[Surtur]

Even IF, for some unknown and unknowable reason, there IS something dangerous in standard vaccinations, the overwhelming evidence is that deaths, particularly of children, have plummeted to a fraction of what they were a century ago since vaccinating became routine. Polio and measels can cripple for life, too. Chicken pox can give you shingles later in life, which is very much not fun. Call me quirky, but I'll take my chances with the shots.

One of my brothers got shingles, they still pop up once in awhile. Apparently its not a lot of fun.

 

[A-№1]

Havent combed through the thread yet, but DIRTY, CRAPPED BRIEFS worry me. Not for autism or anything, but because i dont trust the government. It always makes me think of the tuskeegee experiments.

But i dont and wont have kids, so my opinion on them is relatively unimportant.

Not trusting the government is a good rule of thumb, and the tuskegee experiments were particularly assholeish, but for all that you still have to look at things rationally, and a rational look at modern vaccinations shows there's no comparison with tuskegee. For one thing modern vaccinations are not done by the government. When you go into your local walmart for a flu shot it isn't the government giving it to you. For another thing, they are not any sort of good way to conduct an experiment. Tuskegee had well tracked groups of unwitting test subjects to test the progression of an untreated disease. The recipients of flu shots are not trackable, are from too wide and too diverse and (most importantly) too mobile a population for any useful data to come from them. Besides, there's absolutely no sense to leaving influenza untreated, because we know how it progresses, and it sucks. Just because a lot of people don't remember the 1918, 1957, and 1969 influenza epidemics, doesn't mean everyone has forgotten, and no way in hell anyone wants to risk a repeat.

 

[Chikinballs]

Not trusting the government is a good rule of thumb, and the tuskegee experiments were particularly assholeish, but for all that you still have to look at things rationally, and a rational look at modern vaccinations shows there's no comparison with tuskegee. For one thing modern vaccinations are not done by the government. When you go into your local walmart for a flu shot it isn't the government giving it to you. For another thing, they are not any sort of good way to conduct an experiment. Tuskegee had well tracked groups of unwitting test subjects to test the progression of an untreated disease. The recipients of flu shots are not trackable, are from too wide and too diverse and (most importantly) too mobile a population for any useful data to come from them. Besides, there's absolutely no sense to leaving influenza untreated, because we know how it progresses, and it sucks. Just because a lot of people don't remember the 1918, 1957, and 1969 influenza epidemics, doesn't mean everyone has forgotten, and no way in hell anyone wants to risk a repeat.

Just the thought of being injected with god knows what gives me the willies, thats all. I know its paranoid. Still...

Also, whoever mentioned shingles, thats just chicken pox. Not sure how that is related to vacs.

 

[Axiom]

Just the thought of being injected with god knows what gives me the willies, thats all. I know its paranoid. Still...

Also, whoever mentioned shingles, thats just chicken pox. Not sure how that is related to vacs.

1. If you get chicken pox, you can later get shingles. If you're vaccinated against chicken pox, the odds of thsi happening are much lower.

2. The ingredients of most vaccinations are publicly available.

 

[Chikinballs]

1. If you get chicken pox, you can later get shingles. If you're vaccinated against chicken pox, the odds of thsi happening are much lower.

2. The ingredients of most vaccinations are publicly available.

I dont care what they say is in it, i dont wanna get injected. Doesnt matter, i was as a kid and thats that. Also, when i was a kid they "vaccnted" us by making us get chicken pox. Fuckers.

 

[A-№1]

Just the thought of being injected with god knows what gives me the willies, thats all. I know its paranoid. Still...

That would be valid if it really was "god knows what", but it isn't. There's a very clear and concise list of ingredients on the label.

Also, whoever mentioned shingles, thats just chicken pox. Not sure how that is related to vacs.

If you get chicken pox as a kid, you can get shingles later in life. If you get vaccinated against chicken pox as a kid, you don't get chicken pox and you also don't get chicken pox or shingles later in life.

I dont care what they say is in it, i dont wanna get injected.

I have to ask: do you drink bottled beer?

Also, when i was a kid they "vaccnted" us by making us get chicken pox. Fuckers.

Yeah, but we have better ways now. Getting a quick injection of a small amount of attenuated varicella is sooooooo much better than getting actual chicken pox (especially if you're an adult).

 

[Matthew Moulton]

Not trusting the government is a good rule of thumb

That statement makes absolutely zero sense. "The Government" is not some single hive mind entity making collective decisions about anything. "The Government" is actually made up of countless MILLIONS of individual Americans each with their own personal set of biases, opinions, perceptions, ideals, beliefs, wants, wishes, hates, loves, etc, etc.

There is VERY little in the way of uniform thinking when it comes to much of anything in our government... which, coincidentally, is largely why there's so much epic stagnation in our entire political process.

 

[Masonicon]

Does Every Superhuman Powers that aren't High Tech Exoskeleton(unless physically bonded to user and/or requires it's user to be bioengineered in order to use it) counts as Pseudoscience?

 

[OtterParty]

Does Every Superhuman Powers that aren't High Tech Exoskeleton(unless physically bonded to user and/or requires it's user to be bioengineered in order to use it) counts?

And that's why vaccination is so important