Plagued /r/TNOmod and the Reddit HOI4 modding community - When a subreddit for a video game mod turns to utter insanity

Honestly I expected this place to be a general hate crowd like I heard about Kiwifarms but this is honestly a very cozy and most importantly good place for discussion. I was trying on making video essay on EAW (a bit retarded idea but why not) and decided to make a bit more involved in it and create a chart for people to fill out about their opinion on mod and where does their like and dislikes came from. Decided to look around hoi 4 youtubers discords and I got roughly 20+ people but holy fuck I haven't seen such assholery in a long while.
I mean I understand that people will mostly be weirded out but going for calling me a "a zoophile retard" is a bit of a streach, then I noticed just how edgy and braindead some of the Youtuber fandom can be.
To get to the point I am actually really glad that I started reading here actual fucking hoi 4 design discussions where they aren't filled with memes and mean spirited comments.
 
TNOfication is not a bad thing in of itself - it provides a set of informal guidelines for lore-centric mods. However, due to the sea of nuances in both story building and internal development structure/cohesion any TNO-inspired or TNO-inspiring project usually falls flat.​
Thank you for an insightful (and insider, at that) post. These make the thread flow nicely. There are some considerations to keep in mind about this point, though.

Firstly, that TNOfication provides a cultural development to HOI4 that is in some way productive to the community isn't under question. We tend to consider, and perhaps I do more than others here, that the mod has pushed the boundaries of TNO materially –with a great intensity of original assets– and conceptually –with design techniques and principles either underdeveloped or never seen before–. That this has allowed other developers eager to tell stories in HOI4 to do it better, or even in some clearer, more popularly acknowledged way, is also clear to me. In fact, narrative games are on the rise. Why should HOI4 miss out on its chance, a particularly good one at that, to ride that wave?

The issue lies in the effects of that wave. For three reasons, I would say:

1. You claim that TNOfication provides informal guidelines for lore-centric mods, but it's rather clear mods that barely care much about lore are following suit with predictably poor results. Even Kaiserredux, born from the counter-culture within Kaiserreich that de-centered realism and lore, has polluted its paths with novella events and so on. This is not only a problem with "nuance", but a problem in the very principles of designing mods. Once again, we go back to the point I made that you agreed with: even the brainstorming for them supposes TNO.

2. In mods that could benefit from TNO's example, there is often no effort to extend or develop its techniques to better ends. Once again, it is not only "nuance" that holds these developers back, but imagination and artistic vision: they may as well not imagine another form of narrative design or ludonarrative experience for a game that is close enough to TNO's style. Worse even, TNO happens to be on many points excellent. If no creativity is put in the service of increasing a mod's use of TNO designs, it's bound to appear inferior to TNO. Imitating greatness is how culture by example works, and you are right to say this is good. Imitating greatness without deviation, though, only makes one stand in the shadow. Easier and faster, you become a parody, and you may not even say you've done so in style.

3. Because TNOfication applies both to mods that could benefit from it and mods that could not, mods that are in development, those yet to release and those already here, it's become universal. Because, as I said above, this culture isn't being pushed or questioned, it becomes static and predictable. Put these two together and it seems the entire community is stuck with TNO, caught in the same dullness. It wouldn't mind TNOfication if it kept giving us new and exciting projects, but it does not. I would not mind it if it pushed the community forward, but it does not. TNO did that - TNOfication did not.

I do think TNOfication is a bad thing in and of itself, because I haven't seen it do anything other than this. In an abstract thought, yes, I can imagine it working wonders - but it has not, and I am not sure it will.​
 
You claim that TNOfication provides informal guidelines for lore-centric mods, but it's rather clear mods that barely care much about lore are following suit with predictably poor results.
This is incredibly true: nonlore-centric mods have attempted to emulate TNO design choices and minigames while completely ignoring the game cycle.
TNO's game cycle is primarily WordsWordsWords, and as such minigames exist to break the monotony of just reading in a map game - attempting to include complex mechanics and minigames in a mod where the cycle does not stray from vanilla (map painting) overburdens the player from a gameplay point of view and increases scope exponentially on the development side without being at all necessary. This is why EAW objectively is the most fun total conversion mod to play - it offers the same cycle as vanilla presented in a wildly different form.

Even Kaiserredux, born from the counter-culture within Kaiserreich that de-centered realism and lore, has polluted its paths with novella events and so on.
KX was (and probably still is) a "do whatever you want" mod development-wise. It does not have cohesion except in obvious cases, which leaves developers on their own to think of ideas in their own little corner.

In mods that could benefit from TNO's example, there is often no effort to extend or develop its techniques to better ends. Once again, it is not only "nuance" that holds these developers back, but imagination and artistic vision.
There's a very thin line between an improvement over TNO's design and niche/novel ideas granted PDXScript's limitations. Artistic vision is not exactly impeded - but rather John Carmack's level of ingenuitive programming is required to achieve a unique mechanic or idea that surpasses TNO - it all comes down to Clauzewitz's mod support and the choice of a homebrewn scripting language which is often puzzling and unreasonable in it's design - I have long platformed for Lua support to be reintegrated into the game over its superiority to the current modding engine for easier and more variable extensibility/modification.

Imitating greatness without deviation, though, only makes one stand in the shadow. Easier and faster, you become a parody, and you may not even say you've done so in style.
This is very correct - most mods try to be either a TNO deriative or being entirely allergic to TNO's design rather than something that takes what made the mod great and improves on it. There are two issues at hand that prevent any attempts to remedy this: ego and scope. TNO made a lot of research into people and scenarios it is writing about (well-educated proposals were required before this or that idea was even considered in the first place amongst the team; currently the standards are lowered but nonetheless you are expected to know a bunch about something you want to work on. This duty in most part have been delegated to Designers, or basically "Idea Guys".), research into how PDXScript works, and creating custom mechanics that were never before done in the game, for the mod specifically. Either of those takes a tremendous amount of time from a double-digit number of people. Ego plays here in the sense that TNO is generally seen as the pinnacle of modding, something that pushes PDXScript to its limits - rather than a baseline standard of how a mod should look and function. This perception of the mod demoralizes most who try to make a mod that has comparable mechanics and storybuilding authenticity to TNO.

It wouldn't mind TNOfication if it kept giving us new and exciting projects, but it does not. I would not mind it if it pushed the community forward, but it does not.
Abovementioned applies to this too. There are attempts to reach the heights of TNO or even soar above - the required scope and difficulty to match expectations bog down development or outright make people give up on the idea. It's like an unmatched artpiece with pretenders all around failing to meet its standards.


This is all only looking at writing/script development without considering making artwork or modeling for the mod whatsoever - which requires dedicated people who know what they're doing, who you will certainly find in extremely short supply.
 
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This is why EAW objectively is the most fun total conversion mod to play - it offers the same cycle as vanilla presented in a wildly different form.

E@W really is the blueprint to follow for HoI4 mods. It shows you can have crazy narratives and weird additional UI elements if you remember that HoI is, fundamentally, a war game. You can look at all the fucking crazy shit down in Zebrica, but it breaks up Nuke Fish and Star Father with big chunks of map painting.

Fuck, even Tol Barrad, which is a VN on the HoI4 UI, ends with you going on a WC run.
 
E@W really is the blueprint to follow for HoI4 mods.
I disagree, not every single Total Conversion mod has to stick to the vanilla HOI4 experience to not introduce monotony - there should be space for experimentation.
If your entire pull is map painting - that's your personal taste, someone else might have other interests or just wants to try something new that turns the entire game on its head.
 
I disagree, not every single Total Conversion mod has to stick to the vanilla HOI4 experience to not introduce monotony - there should be space for experimentation.
If your entire pull is map painting - that's your personal taste, someone else might have other interests or just wants to try something new that turns the entire game on its head.

Experimentation is fine, but HoI4 is a war game. It has a very good model of industrial warfare, from factory to battlefield. It has very little to offer, mechanically, other than that. It's not Vicky or EU, which you could theoretically bash in to whatever game you wanted. You don't need to go full map painter, but you do need to have shooting involved somewhere.
 
Experimentation is fine, but HoI4 is a war game.
It being a war game should not limit artistic expression and confine the game to being just about miniature soldier models fighting each other and taking tiles on a map of the Earth.
For example there is a FNAF clone as a mod (which is surely done by some autist from this thread), literal visual novels in the game as opposed to metaphorical (like lore-centric mods), etc.

If you want war - the bulk of the mods provide that, someone who wants to try something wildly new is free to make and play something that may not involve a map, let alone wars.
 
Vicky and CK are all about politics. HOI4 is for World War-ing. If your mod is all about politics in a game focused on war, don’t be surprised your mod turns to shit.
Ironic considering TNO started out as a Vicky2 mod and probably would have played out better there. Panzer was just too dumb to mod it.
KX was (and probably still is) a "do whatever you want" mod development-wise. It does not have cohesion except in obvious cases, which leaves developers on their own to think of ideas in their own little corner.
Redux is probably the best example of an unmanaged mod for HOI4. It's bloated as hell and runs like shit (Not that the Clausewitz Engine is great anyways) but literally, every path has some thought put into it and literally anything seems to be allowed. You can turn Bohemia into a Hussite military state again, have France reenact the Reign of Terror, and turn Russia into a neo-Scythian primitivist state.
 
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Is there a human version of EAW literally the only thing holding me back is the pony shit
To be honest I tried using human portraits but quickly gave up when I was looking at human portraits and reading about hoves and claws
Immersion ruined
Besides, the greatest pun being the existence of Beakolini would be ruined
 
It being a war game should not limit artistic expression and confine the game to being just about miniature soldier models fighting each other and taking tiles on a map of the Earth.
For example there is a FNAF clone as a mod (which is surely done by some autist from this thread), literal visual novels in the game as opposed to metaphorical (like lore-centric mods), etc.

If you want war - the bulk of the mods provide that, someone who wants to try something wildly new is free to make and play something that may not involve a map, let alone wars.

At that point, you're not making a HoI4 mod. You're using HoI4++ to code your new game, and you should consider using an actual programming language instead of hacking together some unholy HoI monstrosity.

Is there a human version of EAW literally the only thing holding me back is the pony shit

Yes, it's called "don't be a little bitch".

Ironic considering TNO started out as a Vicky2 mod and probably would have played out better there. Panzer was just too dumb to mod it.

Vicky 2 has a couple of really bad bugs in its economy, and is absolute hell to play modded. HPM makes KX look like a well coded and highly optimized piece of software, and TNO would be at least that complicated.

It might work better on Vicky 3, once PDX spends the necessary 3+ years to get it to a mature state.
 
Honestly, what I don’t get is why there’s so much effort put into writing lore and story and all there intricate moving pieces for a literal mod to a game owned by Paradox. Why not put all that time and effort and skills in coding - whatever they may be - in crafting out something of your own? Maybe not exactly a cutting-edge graphic game, but something “indie” like Papers Please, Crisis in the Kremlin, or Ostalgie.
 
Honestly, what I don’t get is why there’s so much effort put into writing lore and story and all there intricate moving pieces for a literal mod to a game owned by Paradox. Why not put all that time and effort and skills in coding - whatever they may be - in crafting out something of your own? Maybe not exactly a cutting-edge graphic game, but something “indie” like Papers Please, Crisis in the Kremlin, or Ostalgie.
Because it's infinitely easier to make a mod for a game as opposed to build one from scratch. Even with tools like the Unity engine the end product is usually dogshit because these teams are mostly people doing it in their free time. It's why modding has been such a big thing for decades now, you can literally take the base of any game, and with the right number of people make something entirely different. Trouble is now with modding communities is there are plenty of troons and other weirdos that fuck shit up, see that Beyond Skyrim mod infested with trannies who did shit to the Morrowind plans.
 
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Honestly, what I don’t get is why there’s so much effort put into writing lore and story and all there intricate moving pieces for a literal mod to a game owned by Paradox. Why not put all that time and effort and skills in coding - whatever they may be - in crafting out something of your own? Maybe not exactly a cutting-edge graphic game, but something “indie” like Papers Please, Crisis in the Kremlin, or Ostalgie.
This is the problem; for the most part, even with the lolcow-ery, TNO does do some interesting things. The game it's made for is meant to be a combat simulator at the end of the day. You're telling me none of these people could make a Balance of Power-type game with the TNO "lore"? Something less focused on direct combat, and more on proxy wars/diplomacy? Making a Cold War game for a WW2 game is like a square peg in a round hole.

The new devs actually making Heydrich/Goering more than just stupid meme endings for the game I'm glad about. Troons or not, I recall them saying "Just because these people were bad, doesn't mean the country they would run would suddenly collapse", as the reason for making somebody like Heydrich a real path. It was a bit more level-headed than I expected. It's so funny that I was playing Kaiserreich back in 2011 and that was the most "lore"-heavy mod there was at the time. Now there's all this new stuff. Barely anybody cared about Hearts of Iron back in the 2000s as far as I can remember. It was pretty niche.

There's also some TNO sub-mods that seem very good, and better than what's in vanilla. I've seen both a submod for England and for Germany as well that seem a lot better than what's in the main mod. Even if the main devs may be lolcow-y, the people who like the game don't have to be.

At this point it seems like Paradox should pull a Valve and just outright hire the people and let them finish their old East vs West video game they cancelled. That would have been the game for TNO's setting.

Besides all this, the way Goebbels was written out of the story is some "Poochie died on his way to Hyperborea" shit
 
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Honestly, what I don’t get is why there’s so much effort put into writing lore and story and all there intricate moving pieces for a literal mod to a game owned by Paradox. Why not put all that time and effort and skills in coding - whatever they may be - in crafting out something of your own? Maybe not exactly a cutting-edge graphic game, but something “indie” like Papers Please, Crisis in the Kremlin, or Ostalgie.
I think modding hits a perfect trifecta of Ease-Audience-Enthusiasm. Modding coding is usually simpler, you always have a built in audience of the original game, and since it's an established game the modder is enthusiastic about tinkering with something they love.
Making your own game gets rid of all of that.
At this point it seems like Paradox should pull a Valve and just outright hire the people and let them finish their old East vs West video game they cancelled. That would have been the game for TNO's setting.
Hah! The original reason EaW was canceled was because the modders-turned-devs who were making it were taking too god damned long. I doubt TNO devs would be any better in that regard.
 
Another reason why all that time and effort that was put into TNO hasn't been channeled into an indie game is that there are hundreds of people involved, that time and effort is spread so far and wide that if you couldn't convince the vast majority of the existing team to abandon their current project and effectively start from scratch, it would all be for nothing. Which is naturally not going to happen, and I don't blame them tbh, why fix something that's still at least somewhat working.
 
Honestly, what I don’t get is why there’s so much effort put into writing lore and story and all there intricate moving pieces for a literal mod to a game owned by Paradox. Why not put all that time and effort and skills in coding - whatever they may be - in crafting out something of your own? Maybe not exactly a cutting-edge graphic game, but something “indie” like Papers Please, Crisis in the Kremlin, or Ostalgie.
Suzerain already occupies the niche of country manager cyoa novel
 
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