Plagued /r/TNOmod and the Reddit HOI4 modding community - When a subreddit for a video game mod turns to utter insanity

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Never heard of it, what does it do?
In addition to the above, it replaces every single game file, every single one, re-writes and re-organizes it all to be easier to follow and to function better.
Why? CK2 had a 10 year dev cycle with way too many cooks, just take a look at the localization folder for evidence of this, dozens of gibberish names files filled with WTF tokens meaning who the fuck knows broken in all kinds of ways. CleanSlate fixes this and provides an ideal base point for any modification you can imagine with unparalleled performance and stability.
To the supreme tragedy of all just as the project was finishing up CK3 released and everyone lost interest, still the best way to play vanilla though which is as Wiz originally intended.
 
Redditor types out a mini-essay on why supporting Free France is bad and how you should feel bad if you back them.

Introduction​

Taking a break from the Pincer Theory posts and doing IRL publishing to address an incredibly egregious issue within the community: Free France.
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You should not support Free France in any scenario unless you're an imperialist, have no understanding of grand strategy, and like OTLism. Hopefully, this post serves as a refutation of nearly all the arguments in defense of Free France, especially those who argue in favor of it under the guise of "OFNmaxxing."
To simplify this argument, we'll focus on the two things that matter regarding why you would ever support Free France: the strategic argument within Africa and the illusion of Reclamation. We will not focus on the moral argument, as it devolves into whataboutism. The most effective way of neutering this line of argumentation is by addressing the very real points rather than addressing vibes and French nostalgia. "I feel bad for DeGaulle" is not a valid argument. "At least he's better than the other guy" is not a valid argument. These are only valid if you turn your brain off and don't engage with TNO's scenario.

The Strategic Argument for Free France​

The origin of this entire debate stems from the former lead dev for France, Einstein, claiming the following:
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First, we must address the argument for the U.S. recognizing the French State over Free France. The French State, in TNOtl, has been recognized by the United States since 1940. The French State is a real state. It is not a Reichskommiserat; it is a collaborative state. There is a misconception that the U.S. does not recognize any of the collab states in TNOtl; it is not true and fundamentally paints an image of trans-Atlantic relations distorted from TNO's scenario. There is still room to influence the French State from the perspective of the United States (much like OTL), and it still has future utility if Germany cannot exert its influence fully amidst a different cabinet in power.
Now, as to the point made in the image, the argument rests upon three separate claims:
  1. Free France provides the ability for the United States to influence the West African States
  2. Two: Free France provides the ability to influence the African RKs (pointing to Müller himself)
  3. Three: Getting Free France opens up half of Africa
First, the United States can already influence the West African States through proxy. It's called Liberia. If the United States wanted an ally to serve its interests in the region that is trustworthy, has historical ties, a potential leverageable sponsor-proxy relationship, a springboard into Central and North Africa, a logistics hub, exploitable for U.S. corporations, actively is against not only the Pakt but also Communism, why choose Free France over Liberia? Why choose a known-known that actively and historically has an antagonistic relationship with the United States and will disrupt efforts in de-colonization? The United States should utilize a pre-existing ally in the region to barter on behalf of it, not expend resources into bolstering a proxy.
Second, the argument that Jacques Massu is friends with Siegfried Müller has NO strategic implications in the course of TNO. Not even during the South African War did this play a role; Müller does not defect unless Hüttig wins in the SAW. So, let's break this down:
  1. Scenario 1. In the event of a total OFN victory, Müller is forced out of power, yielding no benefits from the Free French connection.
  2. Scenario 2. In the event of a ceasefire, Müller flees to Free France, losing any political capital he has inside the eventual Reichstaat (Which will eventually fall)
  3. Scenario 3. In the event of a total Pakt victory, see Scenario 2
In other words, point two fails in all three scenarios and yields no strategic value to the United States.
The third and arguably the most popular point of Free France arguments is that Free France opens up West Africa to the United States. This argument has the most credibility: A Free French victory in the WAW opens up West Africa to OFN investment, so long as it doesn't fail Reconstruction. This is completely valid; however, a mistake by Free French proponents is the actual utility of West Africa to U.S. strategic interests.
Yes, you open West Africa to the United States, but what do we gain strategically? Raw resources? How much of this benefits us to warrant millions, perhaps billions of dollars in re-stabilization efforts and security assistance with the French? Raw resources can't be the sole driver of the United States's foreign policy in Africa, nor can it remotely be the greatest. Strategic involvement in West Africa has to be the long-term benefit in pursuit of national interest.
What is the United States's national interest in West Africa? As it was OTL when the Atlantic was contested, it was for Atlantic Defense. As evident by the map below, the United States viewed West Africa as the farthest extent of its naval contested zone, and it should be the lens through which we view U.S. involvement in TNOtl.

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In TNO, we already have a U.S. extension into the littorals of West Africa through Liberia. The Free French does not add value to extending our littoral or logistic presence into Central Africa nor enhance Atlantic defense. Free France does not offer any deterrence against the Pakt or the CPS. Deterrence against both has to come from naval power, and Free France has limited capabilities in that area. The PALF does not align with the CPS post-WAW, and the only threat the CPS poses is in the scenario that South Africa is lost and both Free France and Liberia fall. However, if the U.S. takes South Africa and in the event the PALF wins against Free France, there is no disruption to the United States's maritime power in the region. Suppose the PALF secures a total victory against the Free French and Liberia. In that case, the U.S. only loses its logistic base in the region, but this does not somehow mean the waters of West Africa are suddenly contested by the navy-less PALF. Again, this only occurs if Liberia falls against the PALF during the Mano campaign. Yet, this can be avoided if the U.S. focuses on building Liberia's capabilities and extending its influence in West Africa to deter the PALF. It does not require the Free French. Yet, this is not in the game, although it would provide a vastly superior narrative to an incredibly flawed U.S. ally in the region compared to backing Free France.

Illusion of Reclamation​

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As the title implies, this section aims to dissuade anyone from the illusions of Reclamation. I think before tackling the actual nitty-gritty details of it, I need to state this outright:
Reclamation is OTL slop.
You read that right. It is OTL slop. It is not anything new. It is not anything original. It is not anything interesting. The outcome is the same as OTL, relying on deception through a vibes-based scenario. Yes, Reclamation is "cool" in the sense that you see your proxy go on to fight in the mainland, but contrary to claims that it's 'unique,' it is quite literally what happened OTL. For all the complaints in the community about OTLism and realism, it's absurd that no one here has ever taken the stance or pointed out that a very vocal minority of the community turned a blind eye to Free France doing exactly what they did in 1944. The circumstances are different, it has been 30 years of Nazi occupation, yet the outcome is the same. Vibes are not enough to justify Reclamation; to that end, we must turn to the actual justification for it.

Feasibility​

Reclamation is not feasible. Period. Free France proponent's claims range from how Free France could invade France after achieving a diplomatic victory with Iberia to even the OFN providing enough aid to make this possible. While the former is whatever, the actual thing that makes the material trip to France and the invasion occur is the latter. Free France proponent's arguments entirely hinge on U.S. aid making the invasion of France possible; not a single one sanely argues that Free France does it on its own.
To U.S. aid, I would ask Free France supporters to name a single time in history when the United States virtually gave a country enough weapons, missiles, amphibious vehicles, and ships to conduct a full-scale naval invasion of the likes of France. Not assisted in the form of actual participation from the U.S., I am specifically asking when the U.S. has EVER done a bilateral aid deal on this scale without being directly involved in the invasion. I'll answer it for you: Never. It is utterly delusional to think that the United States, even in a French victory in the WAW, would remotely provide the FF with enough material to go through with Reclamation. You are advocating for something that is not only logistically insane and has no basis even in a FICTIONAL SCENARIO but doesn't follow STRATEGIC LOGIC. You are asking the United States to provide all these necessary tools for its naval deterrence against Germany. The French will not be given carriers, destroyers, cruisers, ancillary craft, merchant vessels, etc., to conduct a large-scale invasion. The French virtually do not have the capabilities to conduct a naval invasion of the mainland. According to Free France proponents, such an endeavor would require the United States to make a gigantic material investment for a proxy that suffers from the same issues in our first section. However, it cannot maintain and repair these materials or sustain its conflict on the mainland. Even if you asked them to be shipped into France to assist the French resistance, it was not enough to overcome Vichy France. Do not even think about mentioning the French Civil War as a scenario that it can, as it no longer exists in the future. The argument for feasibility is not there by any measure.

An OFN Foothold in Europe​

A common argument among Free France proponents is that a Free France victory allows the OFN a gateway into Europe; this is only true on its surface. From the perspective of the United States, its grand strategy in Europe requires Britain and Spain; France cannot and will not be a U.S.-aligned regime. Germany views the existence of an independent France as an existential threat and will rightfully do everything in its power to crush it, even if it's an OFN France. Yet, we don't have to worry about this! OFN France is NOT going to be a thing in the future, which turns the Free French situation into a nightmare for those in support of it. There are two issues for the Free France Proponent: If your objective is to balance Germany, is this the best way to do it? Second, can France be a democracy and distance itself from the Pakt again without being overthrown by Germany?
First, Free France is not the best way to create conditions conducive to the U.S.'s interests in Europe. Free France would have to invade Vichy France AND fight Germany soon after. While the costs in Germany are high, it's a virtual waste of all the human capital and material for a short-term gain. What would upset the balance in Europe and BLEED the Germans? Using an antagonistic Vichy France. While it's unconfirmed whether or not Germany will invade Vichy France in a future update (If I had to put my money on it, I'd say it will happen), the U.S. utilizing a non-aligned France that is antagonistic with Germany yields far greater value through forcing Germany to divert resources to a threat that creates excessive amounts of costs if it attempts to force it back into the Pakt by force.
We have to remind ourselves that the strategic value of the balance of power does not change if Free France wins in Africa. The strategic balance of power would not change if Free France won in France, as Germany would soon re-invade.
This brings us to point two: the only change in the balance of power can come from within. A democratic, open-minded, and antagonistic Vichy France is the best shot for U.S. interests in making a difference. You do NOT need a country to join the OFN to contain Germany; a neutral country with a real, standing, conventional army that you can utilize as a proxy to bleed Germany dry in the event it invades is far more beneficial to U.S. interests than a rump state that almost entirely relies on U.S. investment. Free France is not unique because it's a democracy; Pinay's France is a democracy. Free France is not unique in that it's antagonistic to Germany or can serve U.S. interests; Pinay's France is both antagonistic and can serve U.S. interests. No matter how distasteful it is, if you're going to argue in the framework of national interest, it's time to cast off your vibes and actually work within that framework.

Concluding Remarks​

This is a cry for the community to engage with the game's scenario. Blue map painting is funny, whatever. It makes you feel good.
I get that.
But when you start talking with others, arrogantly arguing in favor of a colonialist power that has no real strategic value to the United States and claiming "WELL AT LEAST IT'S BETTER THAN THE OTHER GUY" under the thin veneer of national interest, it's better to think through what you're arguing and consider the strategic context you're talking about. You are wanting what is essentially bad content that distract from far more interesting stories.
Stop humiliating yourselves in defending Free France. Go support Liberia, which is horrible but not as bad and in your best interests, absurdly support the WAA, or support the PALF.

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This is why HOI4 modding should never be taken seriously. You never see these kind of posts on the OWB subreddit.

Free France should just be axed though, totally useless tag that if it ever got content would be a holsum chungus libsoc African path and a trap fail state military dictatorship path where the French government gets murdered in brutal ways.
 
I don't care for it, arguing for TNO to be more realistic is a dumb idea and the wackier parts of the mod have always been the most interesting bits but I can at least respect him. He articulated his point well and did lay out a good argument for his side.
 
I agree, but not for the faggy commiewank reasons that Free France shouldn't exist. If Britain and the Allies got humbled, the best that the Free French would have is to dig in the colonies they beat Vichy out of. If the biggest supporters are gone, they really would be left in the wind at best.
I also think that TNO should be about fun or odd scenarios, and just doing OTL shit is boring because I can find other mods for that. Better written and made ones too.
Edit: just read the part about "open-minded and democratic Vichy."
Here's the problem, you autist: Vichy was built on the idea that democracy and being open-minded failed. Vichy was a literal dream version of the nation as seen by the literal fascist and right of France, which people forget was quite large and nearly toppled the Third Republic during its miserable life multiple times. I could see Vichy being led by Frenchmen who wanted to get rid of the filthy Germans, but not in a democratic way. They would probably want the idea of Vichy, the Revolution Nationale, for the whole country, leading to an authoritarian dictatorship at best, or fascist France. I'd say read Robert Paxtons studies or look up stuff on Wikipedia, but that's a bridge too far (lol) for the average HoI4 player.
 
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It could just be me sperging but the way tno names some of their focuses absolutely pisses me off. Like, how am I suppose to know what these focuses are about from a passing glance
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To be fair, HoI4 has that inane problem too, the developers have completely forgotten the good design of a focus tree. Spoiler'd because huge images and sperg ahead.

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I did warn you about the image size.

Anyway, so the above is a fairly perfect example of a focus tree. I've colored red the "perfect" focus lines and blue the "imperfect" lines. Blue is not "bad" though, it's just not 100% there for minor reasons.

So all the major branches make sense and are clearly delineated; You have an explicit foreign-policy based lined (Rhineland onwards), Military lines (Army/Air Innovations and Naval Rearmament) and an economy line (Four Year Plan). What makes this work is that the naming conventions are all flavor, named after real events or policies, but clearly show what they are supposed to do and are separated so that anyone at a glance can know what to do if they want to get an Army bonus, or Economy bonus, or invade something. It also shows what actually expands production (Naval REARMAMENT) versus just general bonuses (Army INNOVATIONS). It also breaks down specific and meaningful choices (Danzig/Slovakia and Czech friendship or Sudetenland) clearly.

The only issues are things like Wunderwaffe and Anschluss which may confuse first-time players who have no idea what these concepts are because they haven't encountered German ideas. Not perfect, but at Wunderwaffe shows the idea in the image. Perhaps "Annex Austria" would work better, but overall it's fine.

I'm not going to show the Polish line here, but it is largely set up the same way. It's less impressive due to the autistic political focuses (monarchy, fascism, democracy, etc, it's not clear and requires reading pages of text, it's not something gleaned at a glance), however largely follows the same Military/Politics/Foreign Policy/Economy lines.

Now on to the worst example;

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Now this is a clusterfuck.

Sure, it still follows the groups of ideas (mil, pol, econ, etc.) but it's so unwieldy and is also cross-hatched and interconnected in nonsensical ways.

YELLOW - So the political line leads to policies to support your suppression of Haile Selassie in Ethiopia... as does the economy line when you branch to the colonial path.
RED - So the army and economy line branches, with two branches meeting. That's perfectly fine, but neither the naval nor air lines ever meet the economy line...
WHITE - ...yet bonuses to jet aircraft are locked behind the army/economy branch and require ZERO investment in the airforce to get?
GREEN/PURPLE - All branches, army, navy, air, have economical choices RE: specialization versus mass production. Only the army is connected to the economy branch, and the same choice/focus has to be chosen once for each branch. Now don't get me wrong, I do like the choice, but it seems a little odd to be enforcing mass production at FIAT twice, let alone making FIAT go both mass production and specialization. Thankfully the navy doesn't have much involvement with companies who produce rifles and wings.

Another issue is that, unlike the German tree, Italian is everywhere. It's not used the same way as Germany either; they are political slogans, not major events or words in pop culture like Wunderwaffe. They also have split decisions, where both are in italian, and both affect the economy, but one gives more production % bonuses and less factories, and the other is reversed. You cannot, at a glance, decide which one is best. You are forced to read every single focus in it's entirety to figure out the optimal route for your playthrough.

There's also so many focuses that, even with a lot being 35-days versus Germany's universal 70-day tree, you will not be able to finish most before the war starts. It's easy to get lost. Especially with how spaced out everything is, I can't imagine new players even annexing Albania the first few runs because it's on the ass-end of the tree away from everything important.

None of the symbols fit properly either. Unlike Wunderwaffe, which was represented by a nuclear blast, the Italian tree images are filled with complex symbols, many of which are pulled from propaganda images... and then placed next to other propaganda images of the near-same thing. It's a mess to read.

So six years after Germany was updated in Waking the Tiger, Paradox has lost the knowledge on how to make an effective tree.

Look, Italy's was shit on launch, it was basically done in 1939, but they keep going overboard with new trees. Everything has to be super slow and long and obscure and hidden behind a million bells and whistles. Can't just research the army focus to get 4 factories and move on, you have to research ten different focuses to turn your -10% across the board debuff to 10% for production and -20% for construction speed and +5% training time and +20% org or whatever.

So it's not just a TNO problem, it's a game problem. TNO et al certainly encourage Paradox to go this route though, certainly keeps the predditors and the Youtubers happy. People who play the games? Not so much.
 
It could just be me sperging but the way tno names some of their focuses absolutely pisses me off. Like, how am I suppose to know what these focuses are about from a passing glance
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A) Something about everyone getting the same ration portion?
B) Some sort of council for something, labor I guess
C) Standardized clothing?

I thought commie Italy was supposed to be a trap failstate. Guess someone needed to wank to their literal who commie Italian and do some history LARPing.
 
So six years after Germany was updated in Waking the Tiger, Paradox has lost the knowledge on how to make an effective tree.

Look, Italy's was shit on launch, it was basically done in 1939, but they keep going overboard with new trees. Everything has to be super slow and long and obscure and hidden behind a million bells and whistles. Can't just research the army focus to get 4 factories and move on, you have to research ten different focuses to turn your -10% across the board debuff to 10% for production and -20% for construction speed and +5% training time and +20% org or whatever.

So it's not just a TNO problem, it's a game problem. TNO et al certainly encourage Paradox to go this route though, certainly keeps the predditors and the Youtubers happy. People who play the games? Not so much.
Something I think EaW does fairly well is focus tree setup (although not all the time), some of the newer ones are spaghetti.

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Nice and legible tree, distinct section for Economy over on the left, military trees on the right and the main focus tree is nicely put together.

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My favorite focus tree when it comes to layout. Yes, its pretty wide, but the icons have been designed so you can see at a glance which path is the monarchy and which is Beakolini etc. You have crowns built into the monarchy icons, and It's even color coded to make it stand out better. Just a neat little touch they implemented.
 
Something I think EaW does fairly well is focus tree setup (although not all the time), some of the newer ones are spaghetti.


Nice and legible tree, distinct section for Economy over on the left, military trees on the right and the main focus tree is nicely put together.


My favorite focus tree when it comes to layout. Yes, its pretty wide, but the icons have been designed so you can see at a glance which path is the monarchy and which is Beakolini etc. You have crowns built into the monarchy icons, and It's even color coded to make it stand out better. Just a neat little touch they implemented.
It's a shame that the Fallout mod and the fucking My Little Pony mod wind up being the most well designed and put together mods, while more "realistic" alt-history mods still have rough edges (Road to 56, Cold War: Iron Curtain), or it's autistic nonsense, or it's troonshit.
 
The only issues are things like Wunderwaffe and Anschluss which may confuse first-time players who have no idea what these concepts are because they haven't encountered German ideas. Not perfect, but at Wunderwaffe shows the idea in the image. Perhaps "Annex Austria" would work better, but overall it's fine.
I think in general these are okay, because they add a bit of flavor to the tree so it's not just dry "Make X Happen" everywhere and the focuses usually have little blurbs that describe what's happening in a descriptive matter, at least for Anschluss, so it also works as a way to pick some extra bit of ww2 trivia. What works here is that the HOI4 focuses you listed are pretty basic one word very specific things, but looking at the TNO focuses above they are way too obscure and the icons, as you have said, also work better for the HOI4 focuses because they are relatively simple, when done right anyway.

Hell I just googled what "consigil di fabbrica" was and every single result is in Italian. (I even tried "what is consigil di fabbrica" just to try to get some English results but no luck). And according to Google Slice the Cake is a deathcode band. Granted I haven't played TNO in a long while so I don't know how much the game describes what these are, but I can look up what Anschluss or Plan Z is and get specific results.
 
The only issues are things like Wunderwaffe and Anschluss which may confuse first-time players who have no idea what these concepts are because they haven't encountered German ideas. Not perfect, but at Wunderwaffe shows the idea in the image. Perhaps "Annex Austria" would work better, but overall it's fine.
I think Anschluss really shows the issue of generic focus icons (and vanilla icon design in general), just like how you should be able to guess a focus' purpose by the name the icon should be equally as important. In this hypothetical you could remove the ambiguity of what anschluss means by having an appropriate icon (hand grabbing Austria or Austria in a crosshairs both would be using existing iconography to represent he focus). And as Mussolini said using the Wingbardy tree as an example you can put a lot into focus icons to make them look distinct from other paths and other nations.
 
It's a shame that the Fallout mod and the fucking My Little Pony mod wind up being the most well designed and put together mods, while more "realistic" alt-history mods still have rough edges (Road to 56, Cold War: Iron Curtain), or it's autistic nonsense, or it's troonshit.
It helps that they have room for actual decent paths and storyboarding. Can't vouch for the pony mod, but OWB has tons of paths and nations with content that any campaign is totally different. Really looking forward to the Chicago Enclave update.
 
The most candid admission by a dev to date that BTWH is never ever going to be done:

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That's right, a mod which has supposedly been under development since 2019 and was rebooted after they got rid of the CHAZ founder in 2020...has exactly 0% content implemented (only 'planned') as of now, 4-5 years later. It's been obvious for a good while now that this was but a toozer mod and the devs are all talk, but it's nice to have an open admission to the reality for a change rather than more cope about how 'development never ceases'. And I'm sure the guys who can't even put together a HOI4 mod are going to be leading the Revolution™ against mean ol' Amerikkka IRL too.

They even cut the MVP list of majors to work on for their 0.1 release in half, removing Baltimore (the starting Eastern Seaboard uprising which has already destroyed the White House & Smithsonian while burning down DC before facing righteous judgment at the hands of the US military, according to the first dev diary) and Minnesota (leader of the normie democrats in the Midwest, also the tag which received the most teasers so far, all for nothing now). And it still wasn't enough to move them anywhere near a releasable or even demo state after 5 years.

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The devs sympathizing with murderous radfem Valerie Solanas, because women in the '50s-'60s had it so hard compared to the 'liberated' and 'empowered' hedonistic childless wageslave zombies constantly hopped up on SSRIs today. In fact they had it SO bad, that literal segregation of the sexes was a good idea. I'm sure that were she still alive, she'd reciprocate the kindness of these troons.

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BTWH devs discussing the Weather Underground and their answer to the Honkey Question. But sure, these would-be babykillers with an extreme (((((white))))) guilt complex are supposed to have the moral high ground over the existing state authorities and local capitalists such as the DeVos clan...

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Meet Edwin Walker, one of the most based figures in the mod, who can take over the Denver Government to cleanse America of mob rule, Communism and degeneracy before purging the rest of the Reds from the face of the earth. A closeted homosexual he may have been, he was certainly no faggot.

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And finally, a small flowchart made by the devs for Quebec content which will certainly never see the light of day.

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Yeah from the moment I first heard about BTWH I knew it was never gonna be anything more than one long, extremely elaborate commie wank about evil AmeriKKKa and HUWITE people. But I would really have thought they would have at least tried to have something done.

Nope, 5 years and absolutely nothing to show. Congratulations guys you have officially surpassed TNO in terms of development hell.
 
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