Removing monuments of the Confederacy: Yay or Nay?

[AnOminous]

I literally only state my views as a matter of personal honor.

Edit: I guess, all I am asking is, let us die with dignity. Just let the last few of us who still venerate the southern way of life, and its confederacy, go out quietly. Just relocate all of those things. Give us the artifacts from whatever gets torn down.

Thanks for this explanation. It's sad that this may be the only site on the Internet where we could have this exchange without it being drowned out by screaming from idiots.

I generally agree with everything you've said, and do not view everything remotely connected with the Confederacy as a symbol of hate, or whatever.

 

[Sperglord Dante]

In any case, I do not hate the United States. I just don't think this land belongs to it.

There's some fine people who would agree with you on this...I doubt you'd agree with them, though.

Spoiler: Might really does make right

 

[Gym Leader Elesa]

Thanks for this explanation. It's sad that this may be the only site on the Internet where we could have this exchange without it being drowned out by screaming from idiots.

I generally agree with everything you've said, and do not view everything remotely connected with the Confederacy as a symbol of hate, or whatever.

I'm sorry if I ever gave you the idea that I hated the United States. As even Davis admitted, while it was our second choice, that second choice was and remains better than literally any other option. I am grateful that if we had to lose, we lost to the U.S. I think we could have had our way and you have had yours, but this is what it came to. In any case, I'm glad you took the time to hear me out.

There's some fine people who would agree with you on this...I doubt you'd agree with them, though.

@Sperglord Dante, I am perfectly amicable to recognizing the autonomy and sovereignty of the First Nations. I think a beneficial arrangement can be achieved between them and the U.S., or some now-absurd hypothetical C.S.A. I am not sure why I would be opposed to them having a right to their way of life and their self-governance. It's impossible to undo everything that happened, in the way it is impossible to undo something like the South losing the war, but I want the best for them, and wouldn't seek for myself and my kin something I wasn't willing to give to other people.

 

[Woodcutting bot]

It's probably already been said, but the left is never satisfied.

Once all the confederate monuments are gone, they will turn their attention to the next target. I'd give it 30 years tops before the "muh ebil white founding fathers" drum starts beating loudly.

 

[Mrs Paul]

I have no problem with monuments to the Founding Fathers. I do find it a wee disturbing to see monuments to Oliver Cromwell in Ireland. Cuz fuck that dude. (I mean, he outlawed Christmas! WTF?)

I'd go to see it. It would be pretty cool. How many dead bodies are on display publicly?

It's kind of weird to do that, but I'd go gawk.

I've seen plenty of dead bodies -- my dad's a funeral director -- but I've always wanted to see Lenin's tomb. I mean, just for the historical significance, and just, how the fuck do they do they manage to keep him preserved like that? Dude was a bastard, but that's still pretty cool.

 

[Absolutego]

I've seen plenty of dead bodies -- my dad's a funeral director -- but I've always wanted to see Lenin's tomb. I mean, just for the historical significance, and just, how the fuck do they do they manage to keep him preserved like that? Dude was a bastard, but that's still pretty cool.

According to this, he's bathed in a bunch of preservatives every other year, and part of his skin is plastic at this point. His eyelashes are also fake. By now he's the human equivalent of a formaldehyde pig crossed with a doll.

Also, how surreal must it be to be the guy whose job it is to apply plastic decals and fake eyelashes to Lenin's corpse?

 

[Mrs Paul]

Stupid double post. Sorry. I is autistic here.

 

[Marvin]

I'd go to see it. It would be pretty cool. How many dead bodies are on display publicly?

It's kind of weird to do that, but I'd go gawk.

His was the only one that I saw. They have a bunch of people interred in the Kremlin Wall necropolis.

Also there's no glass between you and Lenin's papery corpse. You could just reach out and grab him.

There's some fine people who would agree with you on this...I doubt you'd agree with them, though.

Spoiler: Might really does make right

I have the same view towards Indians (and Indian reservations) that I do towards the South and pretty much anyone within the US.

Treaties with the Indians should be upholded of course, but I see reservations as damaging in the long term. Sometimes Indians benefit from reservations, but, by and large, they're pretty much just hotbeds of alcoholism and poverty. I would very much prefer they were dissolved, and some actual effort be spent to improve their conditions.

The midwest and the south have similar economic problems. Just without reservations.

According to this, he's bathed in a bunch of preservatives every other year, and part of his skin is plastic at this point. His eyelashes are also fake. By now he's the human equivalent of a formaldehyde pig crossed with a doll.

Also, how surreal must it be to be the guy whose job it is to apply plastic decals and fake eyelashes to Lenin's corpse?

His body looks like paper.

They were considering burying him but then Putin decided it would be disrespectful to all the soviets to prayed at his mausoleum over the decades.

 

[Nacho Man Randy Salsa]

Once they start wanting to remove the graves and corpses of the many confederates buried in Arlington, then it'll be totally fucked u.

 

[Florence]

Definitely nay. I say people should follow Joshua Chamberlain's example and show them a little respect — we're not talking about the SS here, after all.

I do find it a wee disturbing to see monuments to Oliver Cromwell in Ireland. Cuz fuck that dude.

I'm surprised they even considered building them, given what he did to Drogheda and Wexford.

 

[Caesare]

It's probably already been said, but the left is never satisfied.

Once all the confederate monuments are gone, they will turn their attention to the next target. I'd give it 30 years tops before the "muh ebil white founding fathers" drum starts beating loudly.

As a matter of fact, this begun already close to 25 years ago. A black communist professor at Southern University in Louisiana successfully lobbied the city council of New Orleans (which was all black at that time besides I think one member) to have an elementary school changed from George Washington elementary (because he was a former slave owner).

Forget that he is the first President of the United States, a war hero, and one of the most important men that we owe our very existence to as Americans, nope, not good enough. The fact that he participated in the "peculiar institution" at a time where it was completely legal and accepted in the world by just about everyone was enough for these clowns, these fools in the N.O. city council to side with him and change the name of a school named after the Father of our Nation.

That is complete revisionism and completely disgusting any way you look at it.

This same man is also one of the biggest supporters of removing the Confederate monuments in New Orleans, another disgusting, revisionist attack on history and the culture of Dixie.

It really enrages these people that despite winning a war that they were completely over prepared for in the first place that the Southern United States still has its own unique culture, accent, and a sense of regional pride. These facts alone really upset the Yanks.

 

[Hui]

I could hardly post more than a sentence in this thread without devolving into a seething, fanatical, a-logging, mess, so I am just going to say "no" because the South was justified in seeking independence and should still continue to pursue it (blah, blah I'm a faggot, we've all seen me post.) Obviously, though, a Southern Nationalist is going to have an extremely biased opinion- those aren't "historical" flags to me- they're the flags of my country. Those monuments are additionally monuments to a living nation if not a "country." So it's a bit like saying "should we take down all the French tricolors in France" to me. Nonetheless, count me as "nay" for a simple vote.

But how are you a weeb and believe that the south will rise again? Honest question not a diss or anything.

 

[Tranhuviya]

what's done is done.

 

[Caesare]

But how are you a weeb and believe that the south will rise again? Honest question not a diss or anything.

Not to jump on Elesa's spot, she'll give you a more accurate answer, I'm sure. But really, what does one thing have to do with the other? Have you not been reading this thread? She says she has family that dates back to the Plymouth colony, and has a lengthy family history that has very strong ties to New Orleans, the South, and the Confederacy.

This is family history though, which I'm sure she is quite proud of, but she, like all of us are a product of our time. Japanimation is extremely popular right now and is growing in popularity all of the time.

What does being a fan of a popular form of media in the present have to do with respecting the unique culture of Dixie, its monuments, its accents, its rich history, and the beauty of its architecture?

I'm not making fun of you, but do you actually think that because someone is a fan of history, especially when it is directly tied to your own family that you have to abandon anything and everything modern??? Seriously, I'm not trying to make you feel like an ass or anything, but can you at least see now how silly that question was for Elesa?

 

[Caesare]

what's done is done.

Landrieu is out of office in 2018 IIRC, which is why he is making a big fuss about these monuments. He thinks somehow that by pandering to the uneducated, young sjw crowd of misfits, maybe he'll stand a chance getting the Democratic nomination


EDIT:

Anyway, don't get me wrong though. Although I disagree with everything thy stand for (including their wanton ignorance in wanting to rip down these magnificent statues representing my city's rich cultural heritage). I still standby and support the idea of them demonstrating peacefully. civilized, and without incident.


I actually went to the demonstration in Lee Circle last weekend on Sunday. Jazz Fest was that same weekend so I predicted in chat earlier that the protest would be small in number and uneventful. While is was rather uneventful, quite a few people showed up.

On our side: we had biker clubs, Confederate organizations and clubs waving "stars and bars" flags and chanting "CSA, CSA" intermittently , as well some undergrads from the local city colleges from New Orleans, who were studying a variety of different fiels. The college aged guys and gals that I talked to were mostly "history buffs" that were appalled at the mayor and city council acted like dictators and just declared that they were removing the monuments without having a vote to let the people decide. Although I graduated from college years ago, these are the people I talked to and related to the most, since they were just regular people, the bulk of the New Orleans natives who love their city and hate to see it lose some of its magical charm due to a failure of a mayor who is exploiting a National tragedy (that asshole Dylan Roof who murdered those ppl in church) to further his own doomed political aspirations once his mayoral term ends in 2018.



The counter protesters, on the other hand were a mixed bag. Remember, this is New Orleans. It's probably the most gay friendly city in the county besides maybe San Francisco, and we have a very large black population (not so much in the central part of the city like the CBD (Central business district), or the French Quarter, Garden District, and St. Charles Ave. Those areas are amost exclusively white.

But you have these rubes that visit here or even move here to go to college and have zero understanding of the rich and extremely complicated culture.

They see a gay festival and conclude, "Oh, Gay liberal paradise". They see lots of black folks and that Orleans Parish has a lot Democratic city council members and a Democratic mayor, and they think, "Oh, this is just like Seattle, San Francisco, Austin, some other stereotypical "lefty" city, but its not that at all.

New Orleans is a VERY conservative city. Just because we have a friendly populace that frankly, doesn't care who consenting adults choose to sleep with, gay or not, doesn't mean we are a type of "anything goes hellhole".

And they see Democrats in power in Orleans Parish, make the usual assumptions about the black folks and white Democrats, but the thing about here is, although the blacks vote Democrat, they are probably some of the most conservative people in the county.

They are family oriented, extremely religious, and while they accept the fact that N.O. has a very gay friendly city and many of them may even have a gay individual in the family, the fact of the matter is, the black community, especially in New Orleans and the Southeastern US in general, have an extremely outdated view on homosexuality.

They have a word for them here, they call them "punks". As in, "Oh, you know that nigga Stacy's cousin?" "Yeah, that bitch a punk lol."

Finally, surrounding the city you have the large suburbs. Places like Metairie, Kenner, the Westbank of New Orleans, etc. These areas are 15-20 drives from the city center itself, traffic permitting. While New Orleans is a very conservative city, these areas are even more so.

Metairie, for instance, is where David Duke was elected as a State House Representative and served from 89' to 92'' In fact, at a parade during Carnival in Metairie in around 96' I got to shake his hand lol.

To sum up an already too long story, New Orleans isn't the "liberal paradise" these lowlife transplant's think it is. They move here from the Midwest, up North, or whatever cornball city they come from and attempt to sanitize it and make it as just as culturally bland as whatever shithole area they come from, which is highly unfortunate. Maybe after Landrieu is gone we'll get a mayor with a backbone again who will put these historical statues back in their rightful place.

 

[The Nothingness]

As a matter of fact, this begun already close to 25 years ago. A black communist professor at Southern University in Louisiana successfully lobbied the city council of New Orleans (which was all black at that time besides I think one member) to have an elementary school changed from George Washington elementary (because he was a former slave owner).

Forget that he is the first President of the United States, a war hero, and one of the most important men that we owe our very existence to as Americans, nope, not good enough. The fact that he participated in the "peculiar institution" at a time where it was completely legal and accepted in the world by just about everyone was enough for these clowns, these fools in the N.O. city council to side with him and change the name of a school named after the Father of our Nation.

That is complete revisionism and completely disgusting any way you look at it.

This same man is also one of the biggest supporters of removing the Confederate monuments in New Orleans, another disgusting, revisionist attack on history and the culture of Dixie.

It really enrages these people that despite winning a war that they were completely over prepared for in the first place that the Southern United States still has its own unique culture, accent, and a sense of regional pride. These facts alone really upset the Yanks.

Now in the northern portion of Virginia, which pretty much controls the rest of the state, there is debate over changing the name of high school because it is named after J. E. B. Stuart and I won't be surprised if Robert E. Lee High School is next along with a highway named after Jefferson Davis. And as @Nacho Man Randy Salsa stated, there are Confederate graves in Arlington that could also be next.

 

[Hui]

@Coleman Francis

I'm not asking her anything regarding her roots, I'm asking how she can be both. I just find it odd. As another weeb that pretty much pays no mind for any culture in general and happens to also come from the South.

 

[Gym Leader Elesa]

But how are you a weeb and believe that the south will rise again? Honest question not a diss or anything.

I'm going to say something in good faith that is going get me laughed at but is honestly true: I'm not a weeb. I just enjoyed like two or three of the Pokemon games. The fact that I enjoyed Pokemon, especially as a child, is irrelevant to my support for the Confederacy. The main reason I picked this user name is because I like her style and she's as far from anything I have ever gone by as you can possibly get. For an account on KF, the disconnect is what I wanted. In any case, I don't believe the South actually will rise again, but I would really like people to consider the possibilities!

And with that sentence, the internet has achieved its purpose.

Not to jump on Elesa's spot, she'll give you a more accurate answer, I'm sure. But really, what does one thing have to do with the other? Have you not been reading this thread? She says she has family that dates back to the Plymouth colony, and has a lengthy family history that has very strong ties to New Orleans, the South, and the Confederacy.

This is family history though, which I'm sure she is quite proud of, but she, like all of us are a product of our time. Japanimation is extremely popular right now and is growing in popularity all of the time.

What does being a fan of a popular form of media in the present have to do with respecting the unique culture of Dixie, its monuments, its accents, its rich history, and the beauty of its architecture?

I'm not making fun of you, but do you actually think that because someone is a fan of history, especially when it is directly tied to your own family that you have to abandon anything and everything modern??? Seriously, I'm not trying to make you feel like an ass or anything, but can you at least see now how silly that question was for Elesa?

Coleman honestly has the right of it in any case. Plenty of people enjoy the odd thing all the time and just incorporate it into their wider perspective. My grandmother enjoys Studio Ghibli films and she personally knew veterans War of Secession. History is a lot more connected than you think.

 

[Hui]

That makes more sense tbh.

 

[Lorento]

I'm going to say something in good faith that is going get me laughed at but is honestly true: I'm not a weeb. I just enjoyed like two or three of the Pokemon games. The fact that I enjoyed Pokemon, especially as a child, is irrelevant to my support for the Confederacy. The main reason I picked this user name is because I like her style and she's as far from anything I have ever gone by as you can possibly get. For an account on KF, the disconnect is what I wanted. In any case, I don't believe the South actually will rise again, but I would really like people to consider the possibilities!

And with that sentence, the internet has achieved its purpose.

Such honest support for an ideal really does make me tear up a little, its such a wonderful thing to see someone so quietly passionate about something.

Now, onto the matter at hand.

Tearing down monuments because of what they represent is completely pointless and revisionist. There are plenty of nazi monuments still standing in Germany, among them the Olympic Stadium and particularly certain parts of Nuremberg. A simple statue, a name, or a flag for a group that were not nearly as insane as the Nazis.

Let's take Constantine's statue in York in the UK. He was a slaver as well, a murderer, a opportunistic bastard who took over the entire Roman Empire. He was the head of a force that occupied the known world and killed vast numbers of people, all in the name of Rome. Why does does he get a statue? Why do we not just tear that down? Why don't we tear all Roman statues down outside of Rome itself, because they enslaved people?

No matter what the reasoning is behind tearing things down, it is cultural vandalism, destroying a culture because you don't like it is utterly barbaric.